Rescuing 25-man raiding.

90 Tauren Warrior
10180
Blizzard should really reconsider some of their "well thought" decisions before it's too late. They should talk with the community, put some pools, give some choices to vote on instead of being stubborn. You can't keep 9M players with making your own decisions. We're keeping this game alive, so don't be so selfish. 2M former players of Wow are now playing Guild Wars 2 and it'll go on and on if you keep it this way. And please children, keep the comments "If you don't like, quit" for yourselves , cuz I really love this game and I really want not to change that.

BLIZZARD WAKE UP!
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90 Human Mage
12660
16/09/2012 09:42Posted by Ranger
It's not simply a function of how much effort a guild leadership put in, but also the willingness of the raider-members to remain loyal to a guild


And people find it easier to remain loyal to smaller guilds where they are able to get to know each other compared to larger guilds where they don't know or don't care about halve of them and ofcourse the chance of being a guild with someone that you just cannot stand is much becomes smaller as the guild becomes smaller.

16/09/2012 09:42Posted by Ranger
10 man offers the same loot, same achievements and all for less effort. 10 man is often less taxing on individual players, especially on bosses were space from each other is key to avoid some dmg. There's nothing wrong with 10 man being less taxing, but it's clearly wrong for the format to then give the same rewards as 25 man. (5 man groups are less taxing than 10 man raids, but no one would reasonably argue the rewards should be the same)


Well I you feel that 10 men is less taxing complain to blizzard they got their balance wrong. Also for the spreading out part, I can see 2 fights in dragonsoul where having fewer might make it somewhat easier but at the same time I can see 2 fights where having more players makes it easier which would seem to balance each other out.

16/09/2012 09:42Posted by Ranger
One is to give 25 man raiders increased loot ilvl on weapons and trinkets, and keep the other slots with equivalent ilvls


And this would make 25 the source of the best gear again, making sure that anyone that wants to progress their character as far as possible must run it, taking away the choice for player to stick to 10 men. Right now you truly have a choice if you prefer 25 man you can find a guild. In case your server doesn't have one you can transfer to one that has and unlikely during wrath you do not even have to leave your friends behind since you can still talk to each other and group up for 5 mens through the realID feature.

16/09/2012 09:42Posted by Ranger
change mount cosmetics, titles


Cannot say I care about this so go right ahead, personally I don't think it will have much impact either.

16/09/2012 09:42Posted by Ranger
record 10 and 25 man boss kills separately


Don't really mind this either as long as it is set up in a way that you can have the achievement for 10 or the achievement for 25 and not both. Making it possible for 25 men raiders to show that they are actually raiding 25 without giving them access to twice the raidachievement points.

16/09/2012 09:42Posted by Ranger
To say there is little Blizzard can do to promote 25 man without killing off 10 is nonsense. WoW has supported multiple raid sizes since it's launch. The question is about setting the balance and incentives fairly between formats, so that players players can make choices.


Wow has supported multiple raidsizes in the past, but these were always different instances with a different target audience (usually the larger group for the hardcore while the smaller group for the more casual or those that just cannot get a larger group going) and different atmosphere. Right now both sizes are aimed at the same group, or you could actually say that blizzard just put all players into a single group. And as such there will always be 1 prefered size and tipping the balance in favor off 25 men will put 10 men in the same position 25 men are in now and over 2 years we will be seeing the exact same threads, but with the sides changed.
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2 Night Elf Hunter
0
10 man offers the same loot, same achievements and all for less effort. 10 man is often less taxing on individual players, especially on bosses were space from each other is key to avoid some dmg. There's nothing wrong with 10 man being less taxing, but it's clearly wrong for the format to then give the same rewards as 25 man. (5 man groups are less taxing than 10 man raids, but no one would reasonably argue the rewards should be the same)


[quote]Well I you feel that 10 men is less taxing complain to blizzard they got their balance wrong. Also for the spreading out part, I can see 2 fights in dragonsoul where having fewer might make it somewhat easier but at the same time I can see 2 fights where having more players makes it easier which would seem to balance each other out.


I said there was *nothing wrong* for 10 man to be less taxing than 25 man. It's a good thing I think, which allows for more choice. I enjoy both raiding formats. Therefore, why on earth would I complain to Blizzard? Try to get them to balance something that simply can't be balanced? 10 man and 25 man are inherently different raiding formats. The single greatest raids and dungeons design principle error Blizzard made in Cataclysm was to suppose that 10 and 25 were the 'same' or (mother of all weasel words) 'similar'. The formats are different. The strategic and organizational demands are Worlds apart.

[quote]
16/09/2012 09:42Posted by Ranger
One is to give 25 man raiders increased loot ilvl on weapons and trinkets, and keep the other slots with equivalent ilvls


16/09/2012 22:53Posted by Sarni
And this would make 25 the source of the best gear again, making sure that anyone that wants to progress their character as far as possible must run it, taking away the choice for player to stick to 10 men.


25 man would be the source of the best weapons and trinkets, but 10 man would still hold very good items. The other slots, I propose, would retain the same ilvl. Such would allow flexibility for players to move between raiding formats. You can not suppose that everyone wants to absolutely min/max their char like a total obsessive.

Something like a 4 ilvl difference between 10 and 25 man weapons and trinkets would hardly be a game-breaker, and certainly not 'take away' the option to run 10 man. To reiterate, I'm not suggesting a vast ilvl difference, but small. It would allow players to choose more fairly if they want to put more effort in to see a greater reward. Your position is that the same reward should be given for different effort levels. I disagree with this.

Do you think 5 man groups should be rewarded in the same way as 10 man raids? No, don't think you do. Similar as we scale up to 25 man. My point here is not about exactly quantifying the relative position of 5 man groups, 10 man raids and 25 man raids on a sliding scale overall strategic and organizational cost, but more that in absolute terms there *is* a difference, and an effective way of reflecting that is via loot ilvl.
Edited by Ranger on 17/09/2012 10:27 BST
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90 Human Mage
12660
17/09/2012 10:25Posted by Ranger
It would allow players to choose more fairly if they want to put more effort in to see a greater reward. Your position is that the same reward should be given for different effort levels. I disagree with this.


The choice is fair already, since you get the same reward for the same effort (unless you are organizing) and if you think the effort is different it is an issue with balancing since blizzard's intention is/was that the effort would be equal. There is a reason that the only thing they mention when talking about the difference between 10 and 25 is the logistics.

17/09/2012 10:25Posted by Ranger
Do you think 5 man groups should be rewarded in the same way as 10 man raids? No, don't think you do. Similar as we scale up to 25 man. My point here is not about exactly quantifying the relative position of 5 man groups, 10 man raids and 25 man raids on a sliding scale overall strategic and organizational cost, but more that in absolute terms there *is* a difference, and an effective way of reflecting that is via loot ilvl.


5 men are designed with the intention of being easier then raids and as such they give a lesser rewards, same way how heroics raids/dungeons are designed with the intention to be harder then their normal counterpart so the rewards are higher. But 10 men raids and 25 men raids are designed with the intention to be equal and they give the same reward to represent this and even if blizzard feels that the logistics difference is sufficient to warrant a slightly better reward I feel the reward should be aimed at these logistics and not by higher itemlevel on loot.
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90 Troll Priest
12905
17/09/2012 11:59Posted by Sarni
It would allow players to choose more fairly if they want to put more effort in to see a greater reward. Your position is that the same reward should be given for different effort levels. I disagree with this.


The choice is fair already, since you get the same reward for the same effort (unless you are organizing) and if you think the effort is different it is an issue with balancing since blizzard's intention is/was that the effort would be equal. There is a reason that the only thing they mention when talking about the difference between 10 and 25 is the logistics.

Do you think 5 man groups should be rewarded in the same way as 10 man raids? No, don't think you do. Similar as we scale up to 25 man. My point here is not about exactly quantifying the relative position of 5 man groups, 10 man raids and 25 man raids on a sliding scale overall strategic and organizational cost, but more that in absolute terms there *is* a difference, and an effective way of reflecting that is via loot ilvl.


5 men are designed with the intention of being easier then raids and as such they give a lesser rewards, same way how heroics raids/dungeons are designed with the intention to be harder then their normal counterpart so the rewards are higher. But 10 men raids and 25 men raids are designed with the intention to be equal and they give the same reward to represent this and even if blizzard feels that the logistics difference is sufficient to warrant a slightly better reward I feel the reward should be aimed at these logistics and not by higher itemlevel on loot.


There is no choice here.
If you dont like to put effort you raid 10man and get the same rewards as 25man where dps needs to be higher the hps needs to be higher the organisation demands 3 times as much then a 10man does and yet you still gain the same rewards as 10man.

Again logistics or not 25man deserve more then they are getting alot more tbh.
Also you are clueless or just don't want to admit that you are one of those players that prefers 10man because "wow is just a game for every one and every one should have everything".
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90 Human Mage
12660
17/09/2012 12:26Posted by Ebalina
If you dont like to put effort you raid 10man and get the same rewards as 25man where dps needs to be higher the hps needs to be higher the organisation demands 3 times as much then a 10man does and yet you still gain the same rewards as 10man.


Even if I raid 10man I put the same effort in preparing for them as I did for 25 during wrath and BC and that is saying providing enough flasks, food, potions and knowing the relevant tactics for each boss while making sure I'm on time for the raid and at the instance to start this is everything an individual raider can do to prepare and if there is an issue with that in a 25man group it is a player issue and not something determined by the size of your group. As for the higher dps requirement I seem to remember that trying out looking for raid at the start my 30k odd dps in 10 men jumped to 35-40k in a 25 men format so that seems to be taken care of aswell.

17/09/2012 12:26Posted by Ebalina
Again logistics or not 25man deserve more then they are getting alot more tbh.


So provide rewards that help with these logistics so that organizers are not as reluctant to take on the extra burden, but here we come back to the point that logistics problems usually are caused by players and there is very little that blizzard can do to change that and the only suggestion that seems to be popping up which in my opinion might have a chance is increasing the item level in 25 man, but even if you do that on a limited number of items this is likely to simple reverse the position of the raiding formats.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
7785
Is is not the same effort.

There is no rewards that could alter the situation besides the obvious ones.
You and every body know which ones, but you don't want them.

As i said in the previous page, blizzard rendered with current expansion one of the aspects of their PvE model obsolete, dead.

I did my research even on top level.
From 100 top icc guilds we have today 41 surviving and willing to continue as 25 in MoP.

I saw top one huntred ICC 25 guilds with tier 13 progress slower than mine...
Most of the 37 that got essentially disbanded did so in tier 11, and now at tier 13.

From those top 100 only 24 continue to be top 100 in the 10/25 cluster and 34 in the 25 only top 100 cluster.

14 turned or will turn (to include paragon) 10. 5 have troubles even as 10, and 3 are claiming that they will try to go back to 25 for mop.

5 were eaten by ragnaros 25 heroic (3 disbanded and 2 went 10)

60% almost of those top guilds are not 25 or disbanded.
And they were the TOP guilds.

You dont even wanna try checking what happened lower in the progress ranks!
Edited by Lorac on 17/09/2012 19:29 BST
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90 Undead Rogue
12630
17/09/2012 17:48Posted by Sarni
As for the higher dps requirement I seem to remember that trying out looking for raid at the start my 30k odd dps in 10 men jumped to 35-40k in a 25 men format so that seems to be taken care of aswell.
Another epiX? Lets see i raid as a 25-man raider. Morchok 25 hc Most dps Was 58k Within 2 min ....Morchok 10-man Hc...72 k within 1 min.( i know using 3 alts ungeared is bad ... more time.. to spend...on kill...). .(Really love seeying bosses in 10-man hc ... droping like 2% health per sec.... I start thinking 5-man are harder at some points.

So? I choose killing a boss within a Bl..or Heroism beeing ally side ...or better Time warp ... rather then spending time...and perhaps some mystakes that comes along with the time spends.

You also forget how Buffed are the boss on 25-man.. Because 10-man don't have all the buff< Spirit buff =Op>

But it's ok Wowz is gull of hardcores<#3 . Anyway i feel sad that less and lees people are gonna have fun RAIDING. But it's ok because the game must adept to the few remaining raiders at all.

At least no Savior was left behind:)

And Btw i'm not elitistic or hardcore or whatever you may say..Simply a raider and nothing else , but i dislike people preteding something that ...they don't have idea...
Edited by Darkblazer on 18/09/2012 13:55 BST
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90 Human Priest
17335
Is is not the same effort.


If the difficulty would be same for both sizes, then it would be the same effort from any individual player except the leaders. I raid 10mans now, I raided 25s in WoTLK. Unless I'm leading the raid, my preparation and personal effort is exactly the same as it was when raiding 25mans. That's the thing, Blizzard wants to think the difficulty is equal enough to warrant similar items, thus they are not rewarding you with better loot just because your officers work extra hours. That's the core of the problem, how to make logistics easier and more rewarding for the ones actually putting the effort in (as in, raid leaders and guild leaders).

See, a regular member shouldn't receive any extra rewards just because he happens to play with more people. Because the regular raider who logs on in time with flasks/pots/stuff, makes the exact same effort no matter if it's 10man or 25man raid.

When arguing this topic, we should try to avoid comparing the difficulties of the content itself, because the logistics is all it's about for Blizzard. They think the raid sizes are tuned well enough to present an equal challenge for the regular raid member, so the difference is logistics.

Honestly, I don't know how to incentivize 25mans properly, I have no idea. I don't think higher ilvl loot is the right choice though, because once again, in Blizzard's eyes the only difference between the sizes should be logistics.
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100 Human Warlock
15650
17/09/2012 23:34Posted by Kirvbanana
That's the core of the problem, how to make logistics easier and more rewarding for the ones actually putting the effort in (as in, raid leaders and guild leaders).


I'll agree with this post - as it's a very good post in general.

As mentioned before - recognition in the form of even say an achievement for killing a 25 man boss would already go a long ways towards something nice, imho.
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90 Human Death Knight
11250
60% almost of those top guilds are not 25 or disbanded.
And they were the TOP guilds.

You dont even wanna try checking what happened lower in the progress ranks!


So why should 10 man raider subs be spent on incentivising 25 man content when even the most hardcore 25 raid guilds cant even be bothered to stay as 25?

Surely it would be best for the majority of the WoW raiding population to have Blizzard focus all their resources on tuning ONE format for normal and heroic use?
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Community
This thread is a very good read, so a blue-tag is definitely in order :-)

We totally acknowledge that 25 man raiding is not in a good place right now, in fact the developers recently answered several questions involving the issue of 25 man raiding needing more love.

Here is what the developers had to say on this topic in the recent Reddit AMA Developer Q&A:
Q: What are Blizzards views on 25-man raiding? - Can anything be done to save 25-man raiding or make it more appealing? (Does Blizzard have something up their sleeves?) - What has caused 25-man raids to fade away?
A: In short, we're not satisfied with the current status of 25-player raids. There are clear logistical challenges to sustaining a 25-player raiding group. It's inherently 2.5 times as much churn, and thus 2.5 times as much recruitment needed. In terms of actual encounter difficulty, while we haven't always succeeded, we feel that we can deliver on a comparable experience between the two modes: 10-player raiding often involves greater personal responsibility, while 25-player raiding is more complex on a macro level (more moving pieces). Even perfect tuning doesn't compensate for the logistical difficulties, though.

Our hope and intent when introducing the parallel 10/25 structure in Cataclysm was that people would be free to pick the raid size that they prefer, but I'll admit that in light of the organizational challenges of maintaining a 25-player roster, we may need a slightly larger incentive to make that choice a truly free and fair one. When you're the guild leader of a 25-player raid group, and you realize that you only have 21 people regularly showing up, it's much easier to just forge ahead in 10-player mode than it is to go through a fresh recruitment cycle to bolster your ranks. And if Mechanar taught us anything, it's that players will always take the path of least resistance when the rewards are equal. (Note that this doesn't mean that it's necessarily the most fun path or what players would choose in the absence of any outside forces pulling them one way or another.)

A small step we've taken to that end has been to increase the amount of loot dropped in 25-player Normal mode in 5.0 to 6 pieces per boss, matching the Heroic loot rate as it has stood in Cataclysm. That's something. But it's not a true solution to the problem. It's something we continue to discuss on a regular basis.


The developers had more to say on this topic in the recent Best Buy Developer Q&A:
Q: Nobody I know is impressed with the promise of an extra piece of loot for normal 25 mans. What we would be impressed with is separate realm first achievements for each raid format. Any chance of seeing something like this?
A: Possibly. On several servers that have one top 25-player guild that's far above the rest of the server in progression, that might turn into incentivizing them to split up the week after their 25-player Realm First to snag the 10-player one. Not sure that's great gameplay for anyone. That said, we recognize that there's interest in making it a bit easier to distinguish between 10-player and 25-player kills in statistics or achievements.

Q: I am wondering about the incentives to 25 man. This game is a social game so why does it seem that 25 man guilds are dieing off and they are going to 10 mans. Paragon recently posted that they were going to 10 man. Is there any other way to fix it so that people are drawn to do 25 mans because they want to raid with friends and get the good gear?
A: In Paragon's specific case, I suspect they'd find no lack of capable people more than willing to raid with them, but maintaining a Finnish-speaking roster is a core part of their guild culture, and they've made what was no doubt a very difficult decision to scale down to 10-player raiding rather than compromise that culture. As I noted in the Reddit AMA, ultimately there are heavier logistical burdens, particularly placed on the officers and raid leaders, in sustaining a 25-player roster versus only needing 10 players. We're actively discussing ways of ensuring that 25-player raiders feel properly incentivized and rewarded without necessarily elevating one raid size over the other. We definitely welcome ongoing community discussion and feedback on that topic.

Q: Greg just said on twitter that the 25s versus 10s situation was handled in the AMA a lot, but nothing came from that apart from an understanding that 25s do have it harder now and could use some more compensation, Don't you have concrete plans for that, more than the tiny bit of extra loot 25s will have? The issue will only get even more pronounced the next weeks during progression.
A: It's something we discuss frequently internally. We don't have anything final to announce just yet, but we love 25-player raiding and intend to do what we can to preserve it.

Q: Ok, I am going to be the one to ask the dreaded question, mainly because my guild members know that I continue to fight for them and have asked me to still chase this question. 25 mans - GC you have said it would be a good topic for a Watercooler, which is good, and recent tweets say not enough is being done for them.The only change we know about is the loot change and that is onl 1 item different for Normals from the majority of Cata which, excuse the sentiment here, seems a little underwhelming
A: Sadly, we don't have any details to announce yet, but we have a couple of ideas that should make the 25 players happy. We'll talk about them when we're confident that they are good ideas. Remember, the result can't be that all the 10 players stampede back to 25.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
7785
Too late i am afraid guys.
I don't know how the active wow community will react to any changes that will restore some balance in a crippled raiding model.
In any case, i welcome the change of stance that you guys have on the matter for the past 10 days or so.
TBH though, tier 11 should be evidence enough to take action.
You had feedback from players on the matter even before Cataclysm launch, and the free fall of 25 man raiding started in tier 11, the only tier that had many encounters harder in 10 than in 25.
Actually most of the casual and semi hardocre 25s dyed in tier11.

What you did instead?
Reduced even further the incentives for 25s in tier 12 and tier 13, and additionally made the content for 25s more difficult in a very emphatic way.
It was like 10 man guilds were dying one after another in tier 11 and not 25s :(

How did you allow such a thing to happen???
Gl trying to fix the mess your changes created :S
Edited by Lorac on 19/09/2012 16:00 BST
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100 Troll Mage
14480
60% almost of those top guilds are not 25 or disbanded.
And they were the TOP guilds.

You dont even wanna try checking what happened lower in the progress ranks!


So why should 10 man raider subs be spent on incentivising 25 man content when even the most hardcore 25 raid guilds cant even be bothered to stay as 25?

Surely it would be best for the majority of the WoW raiding population to have Blizzard focus all their resources on tuning ONE format for normal and heroic use?


Brilliant. Barely anyone bothered raiding 10man exclusively from the start of the game until cataclysm and that didn't stop developers from spending an ever increasing portion of 25man subs on it. Now that it's finally "on par" we should suddenly adopt new principles right?

You can't remove every incentive from doing something and then use the lack of people doing it as proof that you shouldn't bother creating incentives for it.
Edited by Abnell on 19/09/2012 16:05 BST
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85 Orc Warlock
0
Why did you want to kill the 25 mans guilds at the end of Wotlk ?
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90 Worgen Warrior
14815
19/09/2012 15:47Posted by Vaneras
This thread is a very good read, so a blue-tag is definitely in order :-)

Thanks, Vaneras, visibility is always good.

That said, a few people are getting mixed up - there's nothing wrong with the intention Blizzard had at the start of Cataclysm. If people only raided 25-man because of the rewards, rather than personal preference, it's reasonable to try and level that out a little bit more.

Clearly they've overshot it, and agree that an extra piece of loot isn't enough. I'm genuinely curious to see what some of these "ideas" entail, assuming we get a coffee article on the subject.

To this point, I still see no down side to the individual 25-man Feat of Strength and I've read a lot of things (not only here) that support formal guild-alliances.
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90 Human Paladin
16870
19/09/2012 15:47Posted by Vaneras
A: Possibly. On several servers that have one top 25-player guild that's far above the rest of the server in progression, that might turn into incentivizing them to split up the week after their 25-player Realm First to snag the 10-player one. Not sure that's great gameplay for anyone. That said, we recognize that there's interest in making it a bit easier to distinguish between 10-player and 25-player kills in statistics or achievements.


This is really not a valid reason not to seperate them, just make it so a guild that has the 25man realm first feat cant take the 10man one and vice versa.
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90 Draenei Priest
10440
I remember back in vanilla days, guilds getting together to fill a 40man roster. There was even addons to help with this.
Now with the guild perks and alike, ppl don't even think about getting ppl out of the guild so for many, the lower down to 10man gets to be the answer.

How about something ingame that could see that in a 25man group theres ppl from 2 guilds, or even 3, and with it none of them would lose their guild perks, or at least something that could replace it
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85 Night Elf Druid
15020
What we should pressure Blizzard together as a community is this: WE saw this coming years ago. When it was first announced that 10 and 25 player raid models will share same rewards (not only gear mind you, but same titles, same mount rewards, same achievements) we as a community screamed : THIS WILL KILL 25 MAN RAIDING!!!

And we were blamed to be paranoids, we were told we are wrong, we were served with corporate talk about how we are wrong and how they are right. And fast forward two years, here we are : they are trying to "fix" it and admit 25 man raiding is dying.

I see GC commenting about how they don't really take forum users into account when making design choices from time to time. Mayvbe he should reconsider that policy, it seems community knows more than he give us credit for, and definetely can see farther ahead with our instincts.

My suggestion about how to fix : We don't need 25 man raids give better loot, we are fine with same loot being shared with 10 / 25 man raids. What we need is different titles / mounts. No matter what you do, or how you balance the raids, 25 man will always be considered the more prestigious one, and being recognized as a 25 man raider by having a title like "Light of Dawn" over "Bane of The Fallen King" is a great reward to deal with the organizational trouble of 25 man raids.
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