Forcing us to LFR to have succes in normal mode.

90 Undead Mage
11195
I don't get the point.

Yes, you said hundred of times LFR is for supercasuals who doesn't have another way of seeing raid content. But i'm from a guild that does normal modes and i'm obliged to do it every week to be competitive, and it's not enough.

After 2 weeks of raiding, we haven't killed the Stone Guards yet.
This is not a problem in tanking position, low dps or bad healing. Its a gear only problem.

Raidleaders force us guildraiders to make LFR to get better gear (i'm almost ilvl470), probably because there is no faster way to get gear. If we don't you have to spend weeks farming valor points till you can buy that 2200vp gear you need, or you have to pay thousands of golds for a crafted item at the AH.

At this point like Zarhym said (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7006893247), blizzard don't "force" us normal mode raiders to do LFR, but it's a hidden obligeration. If you don't LFR (or you are a pro), you fail. So in certain mode, you are forcing us to get gear first from LFR and then go to normal mode to succeed.

If LFR it's just a casual addition for people who couldn't raid normal mode (for time reasons etc), why do you force normal raiders to have to pass this horrible LFR thing if they want to do something?

I think the problem is LFR is extremely easy and normal mode is a bit overtunned. Normal is a step above where it should be if you want an easy transition. That way probably, you shouldn't be forced to gear up in LFR and let it only for casuals who doesn't raid normal modes.

Thanks.
90 Human Paladin
7630
463 should be more than enough to kill stone guards on normal o.o

we did our first kill when most didn't even have 463 and that was in a pug.
Edited by Naancy on 02/11/2012 13:22 GMT
90 Blood Elf Priest
7755
You are not forced to LFR as Normals are tuned to Dungeon Heroic Gear.

If you decide to do LFR to increase your advantage in Normals then that is entirely your decision.

If you can't do Normal raids without LFR gear then you have not really beaten the encounter, more you have overgeared it by using LFR gear.

As regards to LFR gear dropping then what would you give instead? People using LFR still want gear progression you knw :-)
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12735
Gonna sound harsh but...

Seems like your guild simply isn't good enough to be a progression guild.

Sadly this is something brought on by Cataclysm where everyone outgeared a raid from day one.
90 Blood Elf Mage
5135
02/11/2012 13:13Posted by Inoruk
I think the problem is LFR is extremely easy and normal mode is a bit overtunned. Normal is a step above where it should be if you want an easy transition


But surely the easy transition you want is provided by the LFR content? As you say, if you want to avoid it you can always buy crafted gear or save up your valor points. That's 3 ways to progress to normal raids. Your argument could be applied to a hardcore raider who doesn't want to have to do the "easy" normal mode. Why not just make heroic content doable at iLvl 470?
90 Tauren Monk
MoX
10085
Eh... I'll just pop 2 pointers in here;

1. MSV only requires 463 ilvl. If you can't even kill the first boss then it's either down to dps being subpar/tanks doing tacs wrong/healers not doing enough. This is easily improved by people reading up their class and practicing it in either 5 mans or LFR which gives you good raid practice.

2. You should NEVER have to do LFR to compete in normal modes. I for one do LFR in dps/tank spec instead of my healing MS and I know a lot of others don't care much about it.

It's clearly an issue of your raid team as a whole, you have to improve else you will make it nowhere. Sorry, but it's true.
Edited by Xunda on 02/11/2012 13:25 GMT
After 2 weeks of raiding, we haven't killed the Stone Guards yet.
This is not a problem in tanking position, low dps or bad healing. Its a gear only problem.


Stone Guards is mostly a coordination check between your tanks, the folks with Jasper Chains, and not much else. Certainly is not a DPS check (that would be, for some guilds, Gara'jal the Spiritbinder).

02/11/2012 13:13Posted by Inoruk
If you don't LFR (or you are a pro), you fail. So in certain mode, you are forcing us to get gear first from LFR and then go to normal mode to succeed.


Many players (not saying it's your case, of course) believe that they are on par with the skill level of players further ahead than them, and that the only thing separating them from players with more progression is just gear. More often than not, the issue lies on the skill side, either your group is not really making the most of their dps rotations, cooldown usage is not being proper, etcetera, or it may very well be that your group is still undergeared for that fight (as long as everyone is decked in blue heroic gear, you'll be fine).

02/11/2012 13:13Posted by Inoruk
I think the problem is LFR is extremely easy and normal mode is a bit overtunned. Normal is a step above where it should be if you want an easy transition. That way probably, you shouldn't be forced to gear up in LFR and let it only for casuals who doesn't raid normal modes.


You're not supposed to transition from LFR to Normal. You're supposed to start on Normal (in fact, LFR opens a week after the normal mode of the raid has). So, if you want to get every possible drop to advance in your progression, yes, sure, you'll want to raid the LFR if you're not doing Heroics, but there're more areas than just gear where all raid groups should be looking at when having issues with a certain encounter. Most of the times, unless it's a dps race, it comes down to something else (bad strategy, for example).
Edited by Draztal on 02/11/2012 13:24 GMT
MVP - WoW, StarCraft II
90 Worgen Druid
9180
It is actually possible to raid these first bosses normal mode in full blue gear, the odd green, and the odd purple from craftables. You aren't really forced to do the LFR to progress in normal mode on these early bosses. Its more a matter of skill, though I do agree that gear does help quite a lot!

Heck, I was still new to druid healing when I started raiding this expansion. I am one of three druid healers in my guild, and one of them was in full blue gear when we started raiding. He healed better than I did mainly because he knew his class better. Most of us were in full blue or half blue/green, and we still got it down.

Edit: Oh, and this is on 25-man.
Edited by Danellos on 02/11/2012 13:37 GMT
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
Zarhym:
Do you want every advantage possible in the game? 'Cause you have to put in extra effort for that.

You can do normal mode raids without Raid Finder gear. If the Guild you're in believes in pushing raiders to use every possible route to gear up, then you should decide whether or not it's the Guild for you. I like being able to do Raid Finder with friends of mine who don't raid Normal or Heroic mode anymore.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12735
Damn.. a blue and 2 greens right after each other.. Must be a full moon or something
90 Troll Hunter
16875
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7006893247?page=12#221

Our goal isn't to make sure progression raiders never want or need to run LFR. Having experienced raiders queuing up is usually going to be a net gain for everyone (in terms of wait times, success rates, etc.). There is usually some benefit to most level-90 players running Raid Finder


There it is folks. Plain and simple. Blizzard will keep forcing Real raiders with the scrubs... i mean "casuals" so they dont wipe 4 hours on the first boss.
90 Pandaren Shaman
10955
Normal to hard, need more gear?
We killed HC raid bosses with blue's come on.
Gear is only a problem when you keep getting the enrage timer. "If you do a perfect job with your class and get the best out of it with the gear you have".

Can't agree more with the blue's and greens for once in my life. But it's a skill problem not a gear problem. Normals are not hard, the only thing in the game that needs some heavy focus are the hard-mode's. Even those are when you get it all correct a joke at the end. As gear get better and it will make is to easy at the end.

LFR should and could not be your problem that make's you able to clear the instance.
90 Blood Elf Priest
7755
02/11/2012 13:38Posted by Monkylord
There it is folks. Plain and simple. Blizzard will keep forcing Real raiders with the scrubs... i mean "casuals" so they dont wipe 4 hours on the first boss.

That statement only implies that it is a benefit to everyone if raiders use LFR, but it says nothing about Raiders being forced into using it.
But on the other hand they need to put an incentive for everyone to use it, plus they also need to acknowledge peoples effort in doing LFR.

Your comment makes no sense.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12735
02/11/2012 13:38Posted by Monkylord
There it is folks. Plain and simple. Blizzard will keep forcing Real raiders with the scrubs... i mean "casuals" so they dont wipe 4 hours on the first boss.


All I got from your post is that you're an idiot.

We've all come to the conclusion that you don't like to mingle with the rest of us, so just be quiet already. Noone is interested in your biased opinion at all. And really.. Huntard? play something challenging instead.

Oh and that quote got boring the 2nd time you used it.
90 Night Elf Hunter
15980
A tip is to use four healers for that fight, that is what we did.
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
02/11/2012 13:49Posted by Mikra
A tip is to use four healers for that fight, that is what we did.

My Guild noticed an improvement when we asked our third healer to roll DPS.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7006893247?page=12#221

Our goal isn't to make sure progression raiders never want or need to run LFR. Having experienced raiders queuing up is usually going to be a net gain for everyone (in terms of wait times, success rates, etc.). There is usually some benefit to most level-90 players running Raid Finder


There it is folks. Plain and simple. Blizzard will keep forcing Real raiders with the scrubs... i mean "casuals" so they dont wipe 4 hours on the first boss.


If you're going to quote Zarhym's reply, quote the full paragraph, please:
Absolutely, and that's okay sometimes. In my first post I said that one of our goals is to ensure that Raid Finder has a healthy pool of players from which to choose. Our goal isn't to make sure progression raiders never want or need to run LFR. Having experienced raiders queuing up is usually going to be a net gain for everyone (in terms of wait times, success rates, etc.). There is usually some benefit to most level-90 players running Raid Finder, but that's obviously very different from "forced content."

It kind of depends on your goals, your guild's goals, and what you want to get out of the game. I'll still assert that Raid Finder isn't a progression roadblock for those who prefer to stick with normal/Heroic raiding.


As he clearly said, there're benefits to having experienced raiders queuing up on LFR (shorter wait times, higher success rates, etc), and there's usually some benefit for level 90 players in there. Which still means you can skip it altogether if you're raiding Heroic (and that'll be particularly true moving forward since LFR gear from the following tier will have a lower ilvl than current Heroic gear).
90 Troll Shaman
20750
lol gear problem, no really it isnt, unless you had no deaths everytime, flawless play with everyones CDs being used all the time to maximise survival and dps and then you still hit enrage, then you can say its gear.

but most guilds nearly everyone cleared this boss with virtually no epics or a couple of 476...which just isnt game changing enough to say its all gear.

basically...big l2p issues sry.
90 Pandaren Shaman
9485
People who say LFR is mandatory in order to progress in normals are wrong. I haven't won anything from LFR and my gear level is now 487. I'm currently ranked #1 Elemental Shaman for Garalon on World of Logs, so I must be doing something right, right?
90 Troll Hunter
16875
02/11/2012 13:49Posted by Azura
All I got from your post is that you're an idiot.


:'(

02/11/2012 13:49Posted by Azura
We've all come to the conclusion that you don't like to mingle with the rest of us, so just be quiet already. Noone is interested in your biased opinion at all. And really.. Huntard? play something challenging instead.


Correct. I have limited time in the evening after work and i would rather focus it on my guild than on some mouth breathers who lack the mental capacity to move out of huge purple puddles and gaping holes.

02/11/2012 13:49Posted by Azura
Oh and that quote got boring the 2nd time you used it.


The quote offers insight about the existence of Loot finder. It's main goal is to keep bad players on a thread mill for longer sub times.
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