Forcing us to LFR to have succes in normal mode.

90 Goblin Shaman
7000

So, say LFR is removed from the game completely. How long would it take for people to hit up the forums, complaining about being FORCED to do Heroic dungeons? Then after Heroic dungeons are removed, how long before people complain about being FORCED to do Normal dungeons, then after all dungeons ever are removed, how long before people complain about being FORCED to do quests for gear?


Do you play any other MMO except WoW? If not I can understand this argument of yours. But personally I play other games in which gearing up has several paths and you can choose which fits your playstyle better. I have come to miss those choices in WoW. This game is very outdated and linear compared. LFR was introduced in the latter parts of DS and as such I don't think you can compare it with something like questing (which has been a core part since day one). It's a new feature which a lot of people don't like, and unlike pet battles it does offer significant upgrades and people do feel forced to go through it in order to progress. In other words: A new feature people hate, but cannot justly ignore.
90 Orc Warrior
13695
So then, please answer this for me. Lets say everyone else in my raidteam makes the choice to do LFR, because better gear obviously helps progression. I choose not to do LFR, simply because i do not want to do it. Now can you honestly with a straight face tell me that i am not holding my teams progress back?

Thats right, you cant.


I can. Your kill will be slowed by a fraction of time (seconds). But by no stretch of the imagination your team will be meeting enrage timers unless you're just undergeared. Once you're at the point to which the content is tuned for, the only thing preventing your raid from killing the boss is perfecting the execution. The very tight dps races are on Heroic (Gara'jal Heroic comes to mind as an example) and in that setting unless you're at the very top of progression, LFR gear will do you no good (it's very likely you'll need a fair amount of normal gear to take him down).

Fraction of time? Seconds? Are you for real? If i replaced just my blue weapons with the ones from LFR, i would deal at the very least 10000 more dps (probably more). How much is that over a 6 minute fight with a tight enrage timer? Thats 3.6 million more damage on the boss. Insignificant? I think not.



Blue Heroic Gear that is fully gemmed and enchanted I hope!

Never forget them gems and enchants...


Of course! Echanting, gemming and reforging gear will always be very useful for any character that intends to take part in raiding.

How exactly is enchanting, gemming and reforging your gear in any way different from running LFR for upgrades?

As you said above. It's no biggie, it's just a fraction of a time. Just a few seconds. No need to enchant or gem your gear then, right?

Same thing.


Isn't this another reason why it'd do good to those players that feel they need the gear to instead improve their dps rotations, talents, gearing choices, etc, so that they can make the most benefit of their class rather than relying on getting higher gear? (I'm talking about those encounters that aren't dps checks, of course, at some point the developers expect the raid to be at a certain treshold of gear, and if that's not the case it's very likely you just won't be able to move forward until you get more upgrades)

Of course, not everyone can play at the 100% of their spec, but the jump those players may see from wearing all 463 to 476 compared to the jump from perfecting their rotations (working on them, or whichever area they might be failing in) would probably yield a greater result, and one that will outlast gear replacements in the long run; you're not likely to lose skill once you've acquired it after all.


Dont try to belittle me. I learned 'skill' in this game 7 and a half years ago. Guess what? You are right, it hasnt changed. I still perform above 90% of my characters potential, thats safe to say way above the majority. Can i improve my dps output by trying to optimize my rotations and talents? Probably. Will it be a bigger gain than to run LFR for upgrades? No way. To put it in perspective, i dont even think 100 hours of studying my rotation is going to give me more dps output than 1 single LFR upgrade would.
Edited by Grimretired on 05/11/2012 15:56 GMT
What an enormous spit in the face of every guild that tries their best but just isn't world first material. To hear this from a Blizzard employee...

You heard it people, Blizzard doesn't consider you competitive unless you're Paragon or Method.

What about competition on a realm? Competition between guilds of similar amount of raiding days/raid philosophy? Between people in a guild? Competition between players of the same class on a realm? Competition on WoL?

Are they less important because it's not about world firsts?


There're varying levels of competitiveness. The folks playing at a local club are competitive. But on a different level (of skill, most often) than professional players. This is kind of the same, there're competitive guilds out there that just can't perform at the level of world first guilds. Are they less important? No.

But coming here and saying that you need to do all this because you are competitive and complaining about it's just weird. That's why it's called competition. You need to edge your opposition one way or the other. There're many ways to gear up these days, and you don't need to use them all, but of course, if you do, you'll gear up quicker.

Asking, in consequence, to shut down those things you don't want to do (and therefore reduce the quality of this game) just because you don't want to use those venues cannot be seen as a benefit (especially by the players that do use those).

Of course, in a world where you compete against other guilds, folks using those venues will most likely progress faster than you in the same timeframe, that's competition. And that's part of choosing which playstyle you want to pursue.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15845
I find it rather mind-boggling that the idea of competitiveness coming from blue posts can't get beyond getting realm/world firsts. For one thing, there are lots of things people would probably consider as 'realm firsts' that aren't recognised as such. For example, the vast majority of world/realm first kills are going to come from hardcore guilds running 16-20+ hours per week. Guilds running 2 or 3 3-4 hour raids per week may well consider themselves in a separate bracket with others with similar time limits.


By this definition, I should be able to walk up to Lionel Messi, Kobe Bryant, Sebastian Vettel, Roger Federer... (you get the idea, I guess) and tell them I'm being super competitive in their respective sports because I'm competing in a local league putting a fraction of the time they are. The thing is, when looking at the grand scheme, I'm not. Not even close. There's a reason why the world first quality guilds usually get world firsts, and it's not just skill, there's also commitment, coordination and a myriad of factors.



I really can't believe the crap I just had to read.
You are aware that competition not only exists at the top levels but also at lower ones? You do know that each country has more than one football league, for example? Saying that those aren't 'competitive' in the slightest way is not only insulting to us but to them as well.
Edited by Velanth on 05/11/2012 15:41 GMT
90 Human Hunter
10120
BUT can you honestly say you didn't hate doing the LFR? It's a terrible place with terrible people and terrible attitudes. It's a watered down basterdized version of real raiding that just devaluates real raiding. Why does LFR have to be part of the Progression path when it is not intended to be for people with guilds?


Oh the irony.

05/11/2012 15:35Posted by Grimretired
How exactly is enchanting, gemming and reforging your gear in any way different from running LFR for upgrades?


By that logic I assume you want to remove enchants, gems and reforge too, right? So you don't have to feel obligated to do it.
Edited by Ravinna on 05/11/2012 15:44 GMT
90 Orc Warrior
13695
05/11/2012 15:42Posted by Ravinna
BUT can you honestly say you didn't hate doing the LFR? It's a terrible place with terrible people and terrible attitudes. It's a watered down basterdized version of real raiding that just devaluates real raiding. Why does LFR have to be part of the Progression path when it is not intended to be for people with guilds?


Oh the irony.


I didnt get it.
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
05/11/2012 15:39Posted by Velanth
You are aware that competition not only exists at the top levels but also at lower ones?

Read the post immediately before yours.


05/11/2012 15:43Posted by Grimretired
I didnt get it.

I did.
90 Orc Warrior
13695
What an enormous spit in the face of every guild that tries their best but just isn't world first material. To hear this from a Blizzard employee...

You heard it people, Blizzard doesn't consider you competitive unless you're Paragon or Method.

What about competition on a realm? Competition between guilds of similar amount of raiding days/raid philosophy? Between people in a guild? Competition between players of the same class on a realm? Competition on WoL?

Are they less important because it's not about world firsts?


There're varying levels of competitiveness. The folks playing at a local club are competitive. But on a different level (of skill, most often) than professional players. This is kind of the same, there're competitive guilds out there that just can't perform at the level of world first guilds. Are they less important? No.

But coming here and saying that you need to do all this because you are competitive and complaining about it's just weird. That's why it's called competition. You need to edge your opposition one way or the other. There're many ways to gear up these days, and you don't need to use them all, but of course, if you do, you'll gear up quicker.

Asking, in consequence, to shut down those things you don't want to do (and therefore reduce the quality of this game) just because you don't want to use those venues cannot be seen as a benefit (especially by the players that do use those).

Of course, in a world where you compete against other guilds, folks using those venues will most likely progress faster than you in the same timeframe, that's competition. And that's part of choosing which playstyle you want to pursue.


The argument at hand has nothing to do "not wanting to put in that extra effort for the competition". Nothing at all. You have completly missed the topic. I dont mind more ways to improve your character, not at all. On the contrary, i welcome it.

My beef is with LFR and the massive upgrades it can grant players that are still wearing 5man blues (wich majority of even heroic raiders are still wearing). My beef is with LFR because it forces me to play with a bunch of random strangers that i'll never see again. My beef is with LFR because it completely spoils the content for me.
1 Orc Warrior
0
Complaining about the effort needed to compete, doesn't that make you a casual?

Funny.


It's not effort. LFR is so far from effort as you get. That is why I hate it. It is boring, mindless grind that makes what raid was supposed to be a joke. Call it a dungeon with more people, because that is basically what it is.

Some enjoy it and kudos to them, I'm no one to tell them they shouldn't, but sitting there claiming people who DON'T want to do it complain simply because of effort (of all things, perhaps the last word I would ever associate with LFR) has missunderstood the point completely.


Of course it is effort because you put in extra work to compete.
If you don't want to put in the extra work you don't get to compete (or need to adjust who you're competing with).
It's the same thing as casuals that want to see the content without the burden of a real raid, the only difference being that the so-called competitive raiders complain on a higher level.

"I want to see the content without having to raid 3 times a week"
"I want to compete without doing LFR"
Same thing.
Edited by Artosis on 05/11/2012 15:53 GMT
90 Orc Warrior
13695
How exactly is enchanting, gemming and reforging your gear in any way different from running LFR for upgrades?


By that logic I assume you want to remove enchants, gems and reforge too, right? So you don't have to feel obligated to do it.


And once again you are missing the point. I am NOT against LFR because it provides another way to improve your character. That has nothing to do with it.
Edited by Grimretired on 05/11/2012 15:54 GMT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15845
05/11/2012 15:50Posted by Doomsinger
You are aware that competition not only exists at the top levels but also at lower ones?

Read the post immediately before yours.


Missing the point, as usual.
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
05/11/2012 15:50Posted by Grimretired
My beef is with LFR because it forces me to play with a bunch of random strangers that i'll never see again. My beef is with LFR because it completely spoils the content for me.

Except that it's possible to do Mogu'shan Vaults without Raid Finder gear, and you choosing to make it easier for yourself is a decision you make. When you go down that path, you make certain trade-offs.
Edited by Doomsinger on 05/11/2012 15:57 GMT
90 Orc Warrior
13695
05/11/2012 15:57Posted by Doomsinger
My beef is with LFR because it forces me to play with a bunch of random strangers that i'll never see again. My beef is with LFR because it completely spoils the content for me.

Except that it's possible to do Mogu'shan Vaults without Raid Finder gear, and you choosing to make it easier for yourself is a decision you make. When you go down that path, you make certain trade-offs.


Sure thing. Except that the exact same deal applies to enchants, gems and reforging. You can decide not to bother with them, but you WILL drag your team down no matter how you look at it.
5 Dwarf Hunter
0
I very much dislike how those so called GMs and green posters are here talking down to the general public of WOW - Informing them they are just bad and if they themselfs are not bad.. then their guild defently is. Cause thats what they are saying here.

Draztal - it seems you just dont get the real problem that ppl are pointing out. Normal raid dungeons should be for NORMAL sunday leauge players. Not the Lionel Messis of WOW. LFR is NOT a team content as is 10 and 25 man normals. But there are plenty of ppl that do want to log on with 10-30 ppl and PLAY raiding content in WOW. Thats the issue atm. The game does not offer that in PVE terms. Far from it. There are many gear checks very early in the raid content and ppl will hit the wall based on RNG on gear drops.

For BLizzard - the real question here should be - How can we allow this group of players to progress and have fun? By sinking as low as going down to Heroic dungeons or LFR difficuty ? No1 is asking for that here. THey are asking for that they CAN raid and progress. For many more casual guilds of WOW the biggest challenge is actually to find enough ppl to even bother raiding. Mostly because alot of WOW players have horribly bad experience of raids and endless days of wiping because some1 dced at a bad time - or because 2 or 3 of the players simply did not have the skills or the gear at the time - even tho the other 8 were ok. This is the REAL players of WOW. And these are the ppl that you - Draztal is here looking down at telling them to learn their rotations....

Normal mode raiding was NEVER intented for the hardcores that did them before LFR opened. SO why on earth are blue posters coming here and acting like the content is fine just because the world firsts guilds did it before LFR? At the same time IGNORING the fact that many of those early guilds had much much much higher ilvl than 463 at the time based on farming worldbosses and spending alot more time than casual players to craft gear.

LFR is an option for ppl that have no intrest at ALL in raiding. Thats just a fact. BLizzard could just as same give every player 15 random rolls per week to get 476 gear. LFR is the lowest form of low in WOW atm cause it will not show anything but the very very worst that the game has to offer - greed - bad players - and horrendous attitude of almost every single raid that is formed in LFR.

So ... Why is there not a REAL options for ppl to skip this and do content in the game with 10 of their friends that a) want to raid b) have time to spend raiding (2-3 nights very casual per week) c) have decent enough skills compared to 50%+ of the LFR horror that is going on? Cause right now this group of players have no real content to explore - other than gearchecks.

And for god sake. Dont act like the diffrence of 463 weapon and 476 weapon is just few seconds. Even tho ppl are no Lionel Messis - they are not stupid. Everyone with half a brain can see the pure gearchecks that have been put up BEFORE ppl even have a chance to gather better weapons in the game. It has nothing to do with rotations.

Fights like Elegon are not complicated fights. It is in many ways easier than the encounter that comes before it. But its just tuned to a degree where you will need certain amount of DPS and it has nothing to do with rotations... just pure and simple gearcheck. Not to mention they favor YET AGAIN certain setups over others. Like Ranged over melee. Its a fight that you would not dream bringing in 8 melee classes with 2 healers and expect it to work in a 10 man normal. But could easily be beaten with 8 ranged.

THESE are the true problems of CASUAL raiding. Many guilds are TRYING to build interest of ppl to raid. It does not work when the GMS come here talking about how bad the general public in WOW is - and how they need to improve their rotation. Thats a pure and simple insult to normal players that are trying to get together groups for NORMAL raiding content of this game.
Edited by Primus on 05/11/2012 16:13 GMT
90 Human Paladin
0
05/11/2012 15:42Posted by Ravinna
BUT can you honestly say you didn't hate doing the LFR? It's a terrible place with terrible people and terrible attitudes. It's a watered down basterdized version of real raiding that just devaluates real raiding. Why does LFR have to be part of the Progression path when it is not intended to be for people with guilds?


Oh the irony.


Made my day.
90 Worgen Warlock
1805
To sum it up, Draztal : making anything give good gear is "forcing" us to do it.
Forcing is the wrong word, you're heavily encouraging us to do it.

If tomorrow, you implemented a quest giving LFR ilvl gear for running 900 times around the Gurubashi Arena, you would discover that half the server would find a new passion for running circles in Stranglethorn Vale.

And if we don't like LFR, we don't want to be encouraged to do it.
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
05/11/2012 16:05Posted by Primus
I very much dislike how those so called GMs and green posters are here talking down to the general public of WOW - Informing them they are just bad and if they themselfs are not bad.. then their guild defently is. Cause thats what they are saying here.

If that's what we were saying, you wouldn't need to tell everyone - they'd already know.


05/11/2012 16:05Posted by Primus
But there are plenty of ppl that do want to log on with 10-30 ppl and PLAY raiding content in WOW. Thats the issue atm. The game does not offer that in PVE terms. Far from it.

Raid Finder.


05/11/2012 16:05Posted by Primus
Normal mode raiding was NEVER intented for the hardcores that did them before LFR opened. SO why on earth are blue posters coming here and acting like the content is fine just because the world firsts guilds did it before LFR?

Because people cleared it in the very first week, and many many others made some progress?


05/11/2012 16:05Posted by Primus
Cause right now this group of players have no real content to explore - other than gearchecks.

Please give three examples of gearchecks. Thanks.
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
05/11/2012 16:09Posted by Sarusse
Forcing is the wrong word, you're heavily encouraging us to do it.

It's an MMORPG, of course there are incentives to invest time into playing the game. Are you now complaining that there's too much to do in the game? I've never seen that complaint in an MMORPG before...
90 Night Elf Druid
7425
lol just lol i downed him on realse with 349 -_-
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