Forcing us to LFR to have succes in normal mode.

5 Dwarf Hunter
0
That is if you just assume that everyone who raids is a selfless jackass and doesn't want to put every effort they possibly can to help the whole raid of 10 or 25 to get through the content easier.

I'm glad that your personal circumstances offline give you the time to run Raid Finder. This is not true for everyone, however. Personally I have levelled a second character to 90, and farmed Raid Finder and heroics ever since because my Guild needed a healer and I stepped in. Because I've the time. Others don't.

If people are satisfied with the amount of effort others put into a Guild run, then there isn't a problem. If a Guild has a rather casual stance on raiding and nobody runs Raid Finder, that's perfectly fine. It's not for you - or anyone else - to denounce them as selfish. That's unfair, it's just a game.


So please, if you got nothing else to say except we're wrong and it's completely optional to run LFR, get someone in here who has something constructive to post and is willing to go the extra mile to negotiate for a solution on how to make things better.

It's a discussion. He will say what he believes to be true and accurate, until convinced that he is mistaken. That a given argument has not convinced him personally does not mean he isn't making an effort. People are entitled to disagree. Please stop being so quick to imply others are lazy.


Im sorry but BLIzzard can not act like every form of character progression is optional. Cause it isn't. You will have to do daylies to get valor gear - that means its not optional. You will have to do LFR to get 476 gear (other than extra extra extra rare HC stuff). Any player in the game that does not do this is not only hurting his own progress - but the ENTIRE raid that he is running with.

BLizzard can NOT come here and act like doing LFR and daylies is not mandatory for decent character progression at this point in time. Not with the current tuning of normal bosses. Maybe it will be ok in 3 months time when there are more normal bosses to get items from. But atm... just no.

What I would suggest is for BLizzard to tune Normal raids abit lower and then dont open up LFR at ALL until X amount of bosses are cleared on heroic mode. That also gives the hardcore players more feeling of acomplishment when they are the ones open it up for others.
Edited by Primus on 02/11/2012 15:12 GMT
90 Gnome Priest
11625
02/11/2012 14:43Posted by Primus


Which buffs are that? A hunter can actually give lots of buff that people don't think of.


Haste buff - shamans, shadow priests and boomkins. Without a shaman you are pretty much !@#$ed in this. In 10 man casual raiding thats not always possible to do. No pets from hunters incease spell haste.


Our hunter's Sporebat says otherwise...

Agree that if you can't kill stone guard in 463ish you need to look at what you are doing. I think the Elegon QQ is mostly because that seems to be the 1st boss where all 10 people need to be up to scratch, up until then you can easily carry a low DPS/Healer.
90 Worgen Rogue
14475
02/11/2012 14:32Posted by Monkylord
Spoken like a true CM. Naming and Shaming garnished with thread derailing.


where's the naming and shaming?
and from what I can see, he isn't the one derailing the thread.
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
02/11/2012 15:06Posted by Primus
BLizzard can NOT come here and act like doing LFR and daylies is not mandatory for decent character progression at this point in time. Not with the current tuning of normal bosses. Maybe it will be ok in 3 months time when there are more normal bosses to get items from.

You appear to be in the minority, at least thus far in the thread. Many players have stated that ilvl 463 is sufficient, and I agree with them. At what specific point do you suggest that this ceases to be true? Does that point allow for the fact that raiding will of course result in gear upgrades, or not?
Edited by Doomsinger on 02/11/2012 15:11 GMT
The thing you ask and pressure: It is not MANDATORY in order to beat the encounters, no.
But, as I stated above, why on earth would you make it just so much complicated to you by not running those things and making it harder for the 24 or 9 other people who you run the raids with? That's just selfish and piss poor excuse for one who wants to complete all HC encounters, or even people who just want to clear normal and are in more "casual" environment.


If you are pursuing realm firsts or world firsts. I definitely understand you might feel you need to hit LFR for every possible gear upgrade to those 463 blues you're missing. But that's a playstyle choice. If you're playing at your own leisure and not too bothered by the competition, you don't need to hit LFR at all. The jump from 463 to 476 for a couple items is minimal. Of course, if you expect to be stuck on this one boss forever, you should definitely go and visit LFR. The fact is, under normal circumpstances, it's unlikely your guild will get stuck for any noticeable period of time if what you're aiming in fact is to clear Heroic modes.

If you're a newly formed guild that needs LFR, then I'd say more power to you, because that's a setting where the room for error is big enough that you can just focus on improving your coordination without fear or meeting enrage timers or wiping because someone still getting the hang of things.

You choose how to play the game. From a tuning point of view, the content isn't tuned accounting for LFR gear in every possible slot.

EDIT: missing part of a sentence
Edited by Draztal on 02/11/2012 15:15 GMT
90 Human Priest
15220
spell haste - all healers rely on that to do their work properly. Saves them alot of mana.


Spell haste never saved mana - it was always a way to spend it faster :)

The thing is that you're stick to your mentality and are even unwilling to try and understand the need for raiders who want to beat every content out there to go and run LFR, max valor cap each week and get reputations up to revered.


So? You want the best gear you can get - there are several option for you to get it.
But! You're not forced to go there - it's just additional option.

02/11/2012 14:54Posted by Lestuniem
So please, if you got nothing else to say except we're wrong and it's completely optional to run LFR, get someone in here who has something constructive to post and is willing to go the extra mile to negotiate for a solution on how to make things better.


So you don't want another opinion opposite to yours?
Ok, can you tell what is wrong with normal raids now?
Are they impossible to complete without doing LFR/grinding rep - no.
Do they need to be a easier so more people can enjoy it - no, though they will get easier later.
Is that bad that some groups can not kill Elegon with current gear - no, they will eventually get gear required to compensate lack if skills from previous bosses.

So, what do you want to make better ???
Edited by Thestpaul on 02/11/2012 15:19 GMT
90 Troll Hunter
16875
02/11/2012 15:11Posted by Doomsinger
You appear to be in the minority, at least thus far in the thread. Many players have stated that ilvl 463 is sufficient, and I agree with them. At what specific point do you suggest that this ceases to be true? Does that point allow for the fact that raiding will of course result in gear upgrades, or not?


Being a minority doesn't mean we should be ignored. You can do it with green gear if you don't have anything better to do with your time, but for a guild that is limited to 9 hours raiding every week every epic is a huge help. Raiding will only result in gear upgrades if bosses are killed and they will not be killed if people don't work on themselves and don't hunt every upgrade.
Edited by Monkylord on 02/11/2012 15:18 GMT
5 Dwarf Hunter
0
BLizzard can NOT come here and act like doing LFR and daylies is not mandatory for decent character progression at this point in time. Not with the current tuning of normal bosses. Maybe it will be ok in 3 months time when there are more normal bosses to get items from.

You appear to be in the minority, at least thus far in the thread. Many players have stated that ilvl 463 is sufficient, and I agree with them. At what specific point do you suggest that this ceases to be true? Does that point allow for the fact that raiding will of course result in gear upgrades, or not?


463 might be enough for first boss - but its not for the entire instance. And considering:

1) the RNG on the drops for 10 mans (many items might be dropping for specs not in raid)
2) the very low number of bosses until guilds hit dps/hps blockage.
3) the must for a perfect setup in terms of buffs because thats what the bosses are balanced on. (this does not always work in 10 man more casual guilds that are now sitting out of normals cause right specs and classes are not loging on.)

This will ALWAYS lead to it beeing mandatory to use other means to get any upgrades. If not - the person is either just stupid. Or is, what we called in vanilla - just a leech.
Edited by Primus on 02/11/2012 15:22 GMT
90 Undead Mage
15310
463 is enough for all of msv, come on people many non-hardcore guild cleared this way before LFR or even getting above an ilvl of 465..

in my previous guild we cleared this first week with no problem except on Elegon with ilvl at 463 and 466 as highest, as someone mentioned earlier if you cant clear it with HC Dungeon gear, then you might wana look at what your doing wrong, read Elitistjerks is one thing you could do to improve your skills as individual player.
Edited by Bojjéshon on 02/11/2012 15:27 GMT
5 Dwarf Hunter
0
02/11/2012 15:16Posted by Thestpaul
spell haste - all healers rely on that to do their work properly. Saves them alot of mana.


Spell haste never saved mana - it was always a way to spend it faster :)

The thing is that you're stick to your mentality and are even unwilling to try and understand the need for raiders who want to beat every content out there to go and run LFR, max valor cap each week and get reputations up to revered.


So? You want the best gear you can get - there are several option for you to get it.
But! You're not forced to go there - it's just additional option.

02/11/2012 14:54Posted by Lestuniem
So please, if you got nothing else to say except we're wrong and it's completely optional to run LFR, get someone in here who has something constructive to post and is willing to go the extra mile to negotiate for a solution on how to make things better.


So you don't want another opinion opposite to yours?
Ok, can you tell what is wrong with normal raids now?
Are they impossible to complete without doing LFR/grinding rep - no.
Do they need to be a easier so more people can enjoy it - no, though they will get easier later.
Is that bad that some groups can not kill Elegon with current gear - no, they will eventually get gear required to compensate lack if skills from previous bosses.

So, what do you want to make better ???


Spell haste means you can use slower and less mana expensive spells more efficently. Its a must if you are going to try to two man heal any encounter in the game atm.
90 Worgen Druid
5045


You appear to be in the minority, at least thus far in the thread. Many players have stated that ilvl 463 is sufficient, and I agree with them. At what specific point do you suggest that this ceases to be true? Does that point allow for the fact that raiding will of course result in gear upgrades, or not?


463 might be enough for first boss - but its not for the entire instance. And considering:

1) the RNG on the drops for 10 mans (many items might be dropping for specs not in raid)
2) the very low number of bosses until guilds hit dps/hps blockage.
3) the must for a perfect setup in terms of buffs because thats what the bosses are balanced on. (this does not always work in 10 man more casual guilds that are now sitting out of normals cause right specs and classes are not loging on.)

This will ALWAYS lead to it beeing mandatory to use other means to get any upgrades. If not - the person is either just stupid. Or is, what we called in vanilla - just a leech.


http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/mandatory

mandatory, adjective; required by law

Now stop pretending that anything pixel related is mandatory.

Also Primus, did it completely go over your head everytime people pointed out that hunters can give spell haste, they can give ALL the majors buffs. Go back and check the link I gave.
Edited by Ravinne on 02/11/2012 15:28 GMT
5 Dwarf Hunter
0
463 is enough for all of msv, come on people many non-hardcore guild cleared this way before LFR or even getting above an ilvl of 465..

in my previous guild we cleared this first weeks with no problem except on Elegon with ilvl at 463 and 466 as highest, as someone mentioned earlier if you cant clear it with HC Dungeon gear, then you might wana look at what your doing wrong, read Elitistjerks is one thing you could do to improve your skills as individual player.


Many guilds had players well above 475 when they entered MSVs. And even if you claim you did it first week in !@#$ gear - I think its much more about you trying to proof a point rather than actually tell the truth.
90 Blood Elf Monk
12470
While the OP is foolish for thinking you need anything better than 463 for normal mode, heroic modes are a different story.

Currently progressing on heroic Will of the Emperor. Do you think I would be hindering my raid group if I didn't raid LFR at all?
90 Human Priest
15220
Im sorry but BLIzzard can not act like every form of character progression is optional. Cause it isn't. You will have to do daylies to get valor gear - that means its not optional. You will have to do LFR to get 476 gear (other than extra extra extra rare HC stuff). Any player in the game that does not do this is not only hurting his own progress - but the ENTIRE raid that he is running with.


By that logic buying gear from BMAH is also mandatory.

OMG Blizzard is forcing me grind loads of gold and spent 2 days at BMAH so I could raid properly. I knew it. Oh wait...

Sounds silly isn't it ? :/
90 Undead Mage
15310
Yes im trying to prove a point, that you can clear it all in HC dungeon gear and are in no way forced to LFR or daily grind for those rep epics, if your stuck on Stone Guard NORMAL, with 470 gear, which btw is higher than my mains ilvl, then !@#$ son your guild is terrible.
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
02/11/2012 15:29Posted by Nymíra
Currently progressing on heroic Will of the Emperor. Do you think I would be hindering my raid group if I didn't raid LFR at all?

Yes, but as has been said, it's a playstyle choice. If you want to progress quicker than most, you have to make more of an effort than most. That has already been said both in this thread and the US one.
90 Night Elf Druid
12515
I do feel like im being forced to do lfr and lfr is not fun for me.I've said this before and i'll say it again, having challenge mode dungeons drop lfr gear, even at a really low rate would have me enjoying trying to get gear outside the "real" raids. Dailies and lfr after 1 time arent fun, at least in my taste and it only feels like im trading time for gear, rather than being rewarded for how well i play. This could be solved giving challenge modes a really tiny chance of the same gear and getting that chance a little higher for better times.

Lfr and dailies feel like a chore to me at the moment and i think they should be an option, but not the only option. I can see this being very frustrating to people with very limited time to play.
Edited by Pöllö on 02/11/2012 15:33 GMT
90 Blood Elf Warrior
5290
I read the first 3 pages and got bored because it became quite redundant. I am a casual player who doesn't even do LFR at the moment, I don' t have the time nor the gear atm maybe later. But all the arguments made about "we have to run the LFR to be competitive" doesn't make sense at all. If the normal mode is "impossible" as some of the posters stated then how come even before the LFR came out the better guilds have cleared the stone vaults? LFR is necessary for those lacking skill so they can bridge the gap using ilvl and not for those who are skilled enough that there's no gap.

In short if you have to feel like you have to run LFR just don't and read up on raid mechanics instead. It'll help you more.

Oh, before I end my post I wasn't always a "casual" player I used to raid quite a bit back in TBC and WOTLK just don't have the time anymore work is too demanding.
90 Night Elf Druid
0
02/11/2012 15:16Posted by Thestpaul
So, what do you want to make better ???


The philosophy of LFR is to make people who cannot commit their time to real raiding to see what the content has to offer inside raids. That I have no problem with.
That philosophy is derailed by the fact that LFR provides better loot than what majority of raiders are currently equipping. HOPEFULLY this will not happen in 5.2.x because at point everyone will be greatly pissed.

Only by making the changes so that LFR won't provide Tier / Weapons / Trinkets would make it much nicer experience for everyone.

Tier = 2- and 4-set bonuses are highly seeked after and provide 99% of the time greater efficiency and performance boost regardless of the primary stats being lower than what some normal / HC raid non-tier items for that slot have to offer.
Trinkets = Raid trinkets are BiS - There'll always be more than one people rolling against your trinket in your regular raids, so you'll want to seek after them from LFR as long as that option is available.
Weapons = Take my weapon for example, I equip Greatstaff of Righteousness, and LFR WotE drops Tihan, Scepter of the Sleeping Emperor, which is a clear upgrade and #1 reason I still run LFR and use my token roll on that boss every single week.

The #1 reason I honestly believe why it's made so it's in raider's interest to run this content is to increase the amount of population who dwell inside LFR. Just think of how many less players would there be if LFR would provide no real upgrade for raiders?
Quite a lot.
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