Forcing us to LFR to have succes in normal mode.

5 Dwarf Hunter
0


463 might be enough for first boss - but its not for the entire instance. And considering:

1) the RNG on the drops for 10 mans (many items might be dropping for specs not in raid)
2) the very low number of bosses until guilds hit dps/hps blockage.
3) the must for a perfect setup in terms of buffs because thats what the bosses are balanced on. (this does not always work in 10 man more casual guilds that are now sitting out of normals cause right specs and classes are not loging on.)

This will ALWAYS lead to it beeing mandatory to use other means to get any upgrades. If not - the person is either just stupid. Or is, what we called in vanilla - just a leech.


http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/mandatory

mandatory, adjective; required by law

Now stop pretending that anything pixel related is mandatory.

Also Primus, did it completely go over your head everytime people pointed out that hunters can give spell haste, they can give ALL the majors buffs. Go back and check the link I gave.


Well - Many guilds look at it as a MANDATORY to run LFR -meaning they will not allow anyone into a raid that is not trying to get the best gear possible to keep the guild progressing. When a game developer designs any system that creates such an obvious and mandatory progression system (note GUILDS set the rules - not BLizzard in this case) - then Blizzard can not and should not act like its not a mandatory thing to do.
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
02/11/2012 15:36Posted by Primus
When a game developer designs any system that creates such an obvious and mandatory progression system (note GUILDS set the rules - not BLizzard in this case) - then Blizzard can not and should not act like its not a mandatory thing to do.

It's not mandatory to raid, it's mandatory to raid with that Guild. They're not the same thing.
90 Blood Elf Monk
12470
02/11/2012 15:38Posted by Doomsinger
When a game developer designs any system that creates such an obvious and mandatory progression system (note GUILDS set the rules - not BLizzard in this case) - then Blizzard can not and should not act like its not a mandatory thing to do.

It's not mandatory to raid, it's mandatory to raid with that Guild. They're not the same thing.

It's pretty much mandatory if you're doing heroic content.
90 Undead Mage
11195
In first place, thanks for all the insults directed to me: clueless, horrible, handless, etc. It is what i was looking for posting that message on a discussion forum.
I'm not looking for answers, tips or something like that, i'm here to receive insults and people feeling better saying that my guild is a shi t. And that makes me want to do more posts like this in the future, when i will have a problem and instead of help or tips i would get insults and defamatory comments.
That's so kind for your part.
/ironicmodeoff

We are not dying for not having enought dps, or for not tanking the bosses correctly, neither for eating what we shoudn't eat on the ground. There is a point where healers (who are healing correctly i must say, if you look at recount addon) get out of mana, and everybody dies.

We avoid the purple pools, the cobalt mines, and keep the chains together until the red phase when we break them. I'm the one that breaks the cobalt mines in blue phase, which does 17k aprox damage every mine. I can absorb them completely with my mage frost shield while receiving nearly 0 damage.

So no, it's not a problem of skill, we know what we shoud do and we do it. That said, we are not pro's and not pretending to be, but we have the minimum of skill needed to achieve victory. I'm sure it's a gear problem, because with more gear, less heals would be needed, and more big heals would land on players, and mana of the healers would last longer, without counting the dps or defense increase of the others. Therefore, LFR is mandatory (maybe not for all, but for some guilds) to gear up and not waste another 2 weeks wiping in the same damned boss. Average ilvl of my raid is 470, and that isn't enough even we do what is required.
Edited by Inoruk on 02/11/2012 15:42 GMT
90 Pandaren Shaman
10955
02/11/2012 15:30Posted by Thestpaul
By that logic buying gear from BMAH is also mandatory.

BMAH is only for those guild's who have the gold for it. On a huge realm like Outland that is just one a two. It is still not needed to clear it all on normal.

@Nymíra,
Just let tomi do more deeps, he seems to slack from time to time.

On the LFR gear topic:
It is by far needed to clear it on normal, sure it give's fancy purple items but those are not needed to clear it.

My guild done Will of the Emp HC with around 470ilvl, that's under LFR ilvl.
At the end there are indeed a few fact that people should understand:
------------------------------------------------------------
1) know your class, that one you are playing. know what you have to do do get the best out of it
2) know the fight, where can i gain damage/healing. how do i avoid damage, is it smart to hit the shield on Spirit Kings?
3) communication, if you have 0 to non in your raid, the change that you kill a boss is close to 0.
4) class stacking, only needed for the heavy raiders that really go for the max out of a encounter.
5) don't take risks!
Edited by Copperkop on 02/11/2012 15:41 GMT
90 Worgen Druid
5045


http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/mandatory

mandatory, adjective; required by law

Now stop pretending that anything pixel related is mandatory.

Also Primus, did it completely go over your head everytime people pointed out that hunters can give spell haste, they can give ALL the majors buffs. Go back and check the link I gave.


Well - Many guilds look at it as a MANDATORY to run LFR -meaning they will not allow anyone into a raid that is not trying to get the best gear possible to keep the guild progressing. When a game developer designs any system that creates such an obvious and mandatory progression system (note GUILDS set the rules - not BLizzard in this case) - then Blizzard can not and should not act like its not a mandatory thing to do.


Then if you don't want to run LFR you are simply not cut out for the guild you are in. Blizzard shouldn't have to change the game because of the way some guild sets up their rules.
90 Undead Mage
15310
Im 99% sure your doing something terribly wrong if u cant down Stone Guards normal with avg ilvl of 470.
42 Human Paladin
3035
02/11/2012 13:13Posted by Inoruk
I think the problem is LFR is extremely easy and normal mode is a bit overtunned. Normal is a step above where it should be if you want an easy transition. That way probably, you shouldn't be forced to gear up in LFR and let it only for casuals who doesn't raid normal modes.


I fully agree with this. MV normal is too hard compared to former first tier raids. Why can't you go back to the WotLK model is it so hard to do ? You know there's a reason why like every player loved it and subs peaked.

Now I'm completely stuck at the first boss in MV normal because my guild only has like 3-4 raid willing and interested people including me that means we have to fill up in trade or collaborate with another guild. And it's not doable because no one knows each other and the floor when frustration sets in and flame wars start is low.

Is it so hard to just remove LFR which only makes players prone to abuse anyway (ololol wearing LFR gear scrub ololol and the likes) and just implement reasonable difficult 10 man raids like in WotLK ?

Hard core players still get their title and mount to feel special for doing raid acm's and heroic mode so ?
90 Human Warlock
14085
Just make Normal/Heroic modes more efficient for VPs.

At the moment, I find myself doing a lot of things I don't want to do in game, at the expense of things I want to do. I don't mind some extra grind for Rep/VPs in dailies, or the occasional Heroic or Scenario, but when three 3 hour raids don't even get me halfway there, it becomes a joke. You reach a point where you simply don't want to bother investing the time pursuing it because it's just too much of a time sink and you end up doing none of the dailies, heroics or scenarios at all; you may as well just go back to AFKing in SW or just logging off altogether.

Ok, sure if I'm raiding 3 nights a week, I'll gear up that way anyway; that's fine - but to disincentivise everything outside of raiding by not accounting properly for that time spent raiding is absurd. It's well documented LFR is faster, more efficient and more rewarding than Normal or Heroic raiding in terms of VPs - that disparity has to be closed.
90 Human Priest
15195
02/11/2012 15:35Posted by Lestuniem
The philosophy of LFR is to make people who cannot commit their time to real raiding to see what the content has to offer inside raids.


02/11/2012 15:35Posted by Lestuniem
Only by making the changes so that LFR won't provide Tier / Weapons / Trinkets would make it much nicer experience for everyone.


In most cases LFR requires more skills/affort than HCs. So why people running it don't deserve better loot than HCs provide, but Real raiders do ?
90 Pandaren Shaman
10955
02/11/2012 15:42Posted by Bojjéshon
Im 99% sure your doing something terribly wrong if u cant down Stone Guards normal with avg ilvl of 470.

Reminds me of Halfus back in cata :) pff gear check haha
Edited by Copperkop on 02/11/2012 15:44 GMT
5 Dwarf Hunter
0
I read the first 3 pages and got bored because it became quite redundant. I am a casual player who doesn't even do LFR at the moment, I don' t have the time nor the gear atm maybe later. But all the arguments made about "we have to run the LFR to be competitive" doesn't make sense at all. If the normal mode is "impossible" as some of the posters stated then how come even before the LFR came out the better guilds have cleared the stone vaults? LFR is necessary for those lacking skill so they can bridge the gap using ilvl and not for those who are skilled enough that there's no gap.

In short if you have to feel like you have to run LFR just don't and read up on raid mechanics instead. It'll help you more.

Oh, before I end my post I wasn't always a "casual" player I used to raid quite a bit back in TBC and WOTLK just don't have the time anymore work is too demanding.


Many of the most progressing guilds had means to get gear that was way better than the 463 HC gear. There were world bosses - many higher ilvl items you could craft that are even right now very expensive for more casual players. Also many of the better guilds put it up as a MANDATORY thing to do PVP to gain better gear.

I know of ppl on twich that had 485 gear before they entered MSVs. Players like Kripp that somehow get extra lucky and get the right drops from world bosses all the time
- just for example. Many of the more casual guilds do not even have 480 ppl in the raid so far.

I think we are night now talking about natural progression in the game rather than forced one. There should be a very natural progression based on gear. The real issue right now is that the gear is very RNG - To much so when aparently the Developers consider ALL the ways of getting gear other than just normal raiding to be optional. Thats just not the case even tho they say it is.

Players want to have their character progress at a resonable speed. I think ppl that are still having their characters in mostly 463 gear atm should have a good chance on going into more casual normal groups to progress rather then have to be forced into other means of doing content.

The skill lvl in normal is not great tbh - the right setup and gear requirement is.
Edited by Primus on 02/11/2012 15:51 GMT
90 Undead Mage
15310
02/11/2012 15:44Posted by Copperkop
Im 99% sure your doing something terribly wrong if u cant down Stone Guards normal with avg ilvl of 470.

Reminds me of Halfus back in cata :) pff gear check haha


:D
02/11/2012 15:39Posted by Nymíra
It's pretty much mandatory if you're doing heroic content.


That will be true only for so long. Heroic Mogu'shan Vaults gear is higher ilvl (502) than that of Normal Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring (496), and well above the Raid Finder of those two raids (483).

But in all reality, let's put things into perspective in that regard, anyways. Let's assume that you do take all your 25 raid members to the Raid Finder in order to clear it. And that you are a Heroic raiding guild at the top of progression. How long does that really take? A guild of a friend of mine, still scratching Heroic raiding, can clear the two halves in something like 40 minutes. So, I'd go and argue that a Heroic-level guild could clear the whole place in 30? minutes.

What else could you do in that time? You could do dailies for a particular faction, surely. You could harvest materials for your profession or trade. Or play some pet battles. Thirty minutes. Unless you raid for thirty minutes as well every week, that doesn't sound as a massive time investment to me. So, is it really as demanding as some of you seem to pretend to imply?
Edited by Draztal on 02/11/2012 15:47 GMT
90 Night Elf Druid
0
In most cases LFR requires more skills/affort than HCs


Part of my brain just died with this statement.
90 Pandaren Shaman
10955
02/11/2012 15:46Posted by Draztal
But in all reality, let's put things into perspective in that regard, anyways. Let's assume that you do take all your 25 raid members to the Raid Finder in order to clear it. And that you are a Heroic raiding guild at the top of progression. How long does that really take?

We still run LFR MV, mainly for the trinket's. Think we do lfr in maybe 20/30min, we are a decent top guild. Even run alts in our group to gear them up in the LFR run.
Edited by Copperkop on 02/11/2012 15:50 GMT
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
02/11/2012 15:39Posted by Nymíra
It's pretty much mandatory if you're doing heroic content.

What a strange thing to say in a thread called "Forcing us to LFR to have success in normal mode"...
90 Human Priest
15195
02/11/2012 15:47Posted by Lestuniem
In most cases LFR requires more skills/affort than HCs


Part of my brain just died with this statement.


HCs == HC dungeons... wasn't that obvious?
90 Human Paladin
11155
There is nothing "forcing" you to do LFR. The fights are doable easily with Hc blues and Elegon... well he is a bit hard but what do you want? Some boss that stands there and melees like galleon and is free loot for everyone or a complex encounter that is hard to beat, fun to do, more rewarding when you kill it and much better made...

Seriously Blizzard is trying to make some beautiful complex encounters so we won't get bored and then we get crybabies thinking that Normal is overtuned because they can't complete it in one day and don't accept the fact that their skills are just too low.

The boss I would complain is Will of the Emperor normal, while it's fun evading devastating combo I think Will of the Emperor normal is a bit undertuned considering we downed it in 3-4 tries and no previous progress but I heard that he is probably the hardest on HC mode so that will make up for it I guess.
90 Draenei Hunter
13870
I'm from guild that does not race for realm first, and I think that mayn of us just want to have some group fun while stomping bad guys. We were able to do first 2 bosses before LFR even opened after a few wipes to really see the fight. With no LFR gear, just items from HCs and crafted items, some of us even below the 460 required for LFR (I wasn't even hitcapped that time). If you have trouble with some boss, keep trying, and if you wipe, try to see why, as it helps a lot. try to notice which parts of fight gives you most trouble and what could be done better there. Bosses in Mogushan Vaults are more about tactics than DPS exc. the troll and Elegon.

We still run LFR to get quick Valor (even though most of us is capped before sunday) and to show the content to guildies not geared/skilled enough to see it on normal.
Edited by Mahmeya on 02/11/2012 15:58 GMT
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