Forcing us to LFR to have succes in normal mode.

90 Orc Warrior
12475
my guild downed stone guards before lfr was implemented, we also downed feng before lfr.

Just this week we managed to fully clear mogushan vaults normal for the first time.

Soo...

...its not about gear, its about skill. :D
90 Draenei Shaman
8985
02/11/2012 15:42Posted by Eoria
I think the problem is LFR is extremely easy and normal mode is a bit overtunned. Normal is a step above where it should be if you want an easy transition. That way probably, you shouldn't be forced to gear up in LFR and let it only for casuals who doesn't raid normal modes.


I fully agree with this. MV normal is too hard compared to former first tier raids. Why can't you go back to the WotLK model is it so hard to do ? You know there's a reason why like every player loved it and subs peaked.


WotLK model was a total joke and a lot of old raiders and big raid guilds full on quit after being able to blaze straight through everything.

See you might want to look at the fact that the reason almost every "wow killer" failed was the fact that endgame content was so short and easy most of the playerbase blasted through and quit from boredom.

People need to learn to accept they aren't always as great as they think and that if they want to be there in the front ranks claiming prestigious firsts they need to spend more time improving skills instead of drooling over gear that will fix it for them eventually.
1 Troll Priest
0
So please, if you got nothing else to say except we're wrong and it's completely optional to run LFR, get someone in here who has something constructive to post and is willing to go the extra mile to negotiate for a solution on how to make things better.


You are not the players union representative and this is not a negotiation. As far as 'mandatory' raid-preparation goes LFR is the easy part compared with grinding out dailies for the free 489s from Klaxxi/Golden Lotus, getting conquest gear (assuming you aren't already a fan of PvP) and camping Galleon spawns - all of which offer better gear than LFR anyway.

When looked at in the context of what people did in some previous expansions to gain an edge - like getting world buffs and farming endless pots in Vanilla, crafting resistance kit in Vanilla/TBC or running ToC on 10N/10HC/25N/25HC every week, it's a piece of cake and incredibly quick.
5 Dwarf Hunter
0
It's pretty much mandatory if you're doing heroic content.

What a strange thing to say in a thread called "Forcing us to LFR to have success in normal mode"...


The op is making a valid point anyway - And Blizzard is not coming up with very strong arguments against it are they? Im not saying that Stoneguard is a gear check and the OPs group defenetly needs to improve beyond stupid LFR lvl.

BUt.... Be hardcore or dont raid normals seem to be the call of the day atm. Cause if not then why on earth do we see a boss like Elegon have only 5% success rate when all other bosses INCLUDING the last one have well over 10% ?

The best way to beat Elegon has only so much to do with skills. It has much more to do with perfect setup of buffs and higher itemlvl. Best ofc to have better weapons that drop MOST regularly in LFR on the boss after. And even PVP has better weapons... That give more dps that is key element to winning that fight.

So stop ignoring facts. They are for all to see.
Edited by Primus on 02/11/2012 16:03 GMT
MVP
100 Human Death Knight
10725
02/11/2012 15:59Posted by Primus
So stop ignoring facts. They are for all to see.

Nobody's ignoring facts; we never once stated that Raid Finder loot doesn't help. We argued that it is possible to raid without Raid Finder loot, and you've singularly failed thus far to prove otherwise. Something being harder is not the same as something being impossible. You refuse to accept this.
90 Worgen Druid
5045
02/11/2012 15:59Posted by Primus

What a strange thing to say in a thread called "Forcing us to LFR to have success in normal mode"...


The op is making a valid point anyway - And Blizzard is not coming up with very strong arguments against it are they? Im not saying that Stoneguard is a gear check and the OPs group needs to improve beyond stupid LFR lvl.

BUt.... Be hardcore or dont raid normals seem to be the call of the day atm. Cause if not then why on earth do we see a boss like Elegon have only 5% success rate when all other bosses INCLUDING the last one have well over 10% ?

The best way to beat Elegon has only so much to do with skills. It has much more to do with perfect setup of buffs and higher itemlvl. Best ofc to have better weapons that drop MOST regularly in LFR on the boss after. And even PVP has better weapons... That give more dps that is key element to winning that fight.

So stop ignoring facts. They are for all to see.


Fact: No one is forcing you to do anything. If you can't handle peer pressure, it's your problem, and Blizzard shouldn't have to fix it for you.
You'd be able to fix the problem with LFR by combining the lockout from LFR and normal/hc as allready suggested one million times both here and on the US forums. Some of us want to put in effort in order to kill bosses. we're not gonna let outselves slack behind on gear, when there's some easyly attainable for almost no effort. asking us not to do LFR if we dont want to do it, would be like telling us not to gem or enchant or gear.

theres a couple of things you need, in order to be the best you can for your raids.
-flasks
-potions
-enchants
-gems
-reforges
these are easily doable in a city.
then theres the things you have to do outside the cities
-dailies
-LFR
-Valor
i dont agree with the way dailies is set up, but thats a whole other topic. LFR is also a requirement (even though there's other ways of earning valor points) LFR is easy access to gear, which makes it mandatory if you want to be the best you can. Also its ruins the experience when you're running through the raid on normal as you're 'forced' to run through the same instance in an environment that you do not enjoy, therefore the instance feel old and boring before you're even able to reach certain bosses.
MVP
100 Human Death Knight
10725
02/11/2012 16:09Posted by Jvill
which makes it mandatory if

If is a conditional statement, thus it is not mandatory.
5 Dwarf Hunter
0
So stop ignoring facts. They are for all to see.

Nobody's ignoring facts; we never once stated that Raid Finder loot doesn't help. We argued that it is possible to raid without Raid Finder loot, and you've singularly failed thus far to prove otherwise. Something being harder is not the same as something being impossible. You refuse to accept this.


You dont get it... why should casual players want it to be harder? For them its at the lvl of impossible even tho its not for more hardcore player that is playing much more of the game.

The real question here is - How much IS enough? Lucky RNG drop on every boss every week that raid can use? What if 10 man raids get unlucky and has zero usable item on the first bosses few weeks in a row ? You can't act like its just optional to cap valor and do daylies for rep then. Why in HELL should a casual player that wants to progress his character pay 15$ per month for such a poor RPG system ?

This is all about RNG. And right now the RNG is way to high for example on 10 man normal for it to be a resonable way of progressing. Specially considering that 10 mans are also having more issues with filling raid with right setups of buffs. And if thats the case - you will need even higher ilvl to beat the encounter.

THese are the facts. Blizzard IS ignoring these facts atm.
Edited by Primus on 02/11/2012 16:13 GMT
90 Night Elf Druid
10670
02/11/2012 16:09Posted by Jvill
You'd be able to fix the problem with LFR by combining the lockout from LFR and normal/hc as allready suggested one million times both here and on the US forums. Some of us want to put in effort in order to kill bosses. we're not gonna let outselves slack behind on gear, when there's some easyly attainable for almost no effort. asking us not to do LFR if we dont want to do it, would be like telling us not to gem or enchant or gear.


QFT
Since the raids are anyhow aimed for different kind of people with different philosophies I see no problem in doing this..
02/11/2012 16:11Posted by Doomsinger
which makes it mandatory if

If is a conditional statement, thus it is not mandatory.

if you got to quote me, please quote the whole sentence.
90 Blood Elf Monk
12470
02/11/2012 15:46Posted by Draztal
It's pretty much mandatory if you're doing heroic content.


That will be true only for so long. Heroic Mogu'shan Vaults gear is higher ilvl (502) than that of Normal Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring (496), and well above the Raid Finder of those two raids (483).

But in all reality, let's put things into perspective in that regard, anyways. Let's assume that you do take all your 25 raid members to the Raid Finder in order to clear it. And that you are a Heroic raiding guild at the top of progression. How long does that really take? A guild of a friend of mine, still scratching Heroic raiding, can clear the two halves in something like 40 minutes. So, I'd go and argue that a Heroic-level guild could clear the whole place in 30? minutes.

What else could you do in that time? You could do dailies for a particular faction, surely. You could harvest materials for your profession or trade. Or play some pet battles. Thirty minutes. Unless you raid for thirty minutes as well every week, that doesn't sound as a massive time investment to me. So, is it really as demanding as some of you seem to pretend to imply?

Granted. I'm not arguing it takes a long time. I'm just saying it's mandatory. Even if not for the items the fact LFR has a higher chance (seemingly) to drop Sigils of Power (and undoubtedly Sigils of Wisdom) than heroic mode content causes LFR to become mandatory in many cases.

You are of course correct when it's just about gear. When people are decked in 502/509 gear, they will no longer need to run LFR. Nor will I need to run LFR when we're 6/6 HoF HC, 6/6 MSV HC, 4/4 ToES HC but until then I feel forced to do it, so do many others in my guild.

What I dislike strongly about the LFR setting though is that I could go AFK and still be eligible for loot (and believe me, I go AFK). It's not really fair for anyone: casuals who want to see content, heroic raiders "carrying" the group, normal raiders hoping for an item. The system is great: I love LFR, it lets me gear up my alts in a nice pace and you are correct when you argue about time spent.

Although you cannot probably say, what is the actual drop rate of Sigils from heroic modes? On my monk I have 14 sigils, of which 9 have been from LFR and 2 from normal mode MSV and 3 from heroic MSV. It feels a bit silly that LFR, from my point of view, is a better way to complete your legendary than the 'pinnacle' of raiding content.
90 Night Elf Rogue
5710
Your not forced to use LFR, you can start a group with your guild etc.
MVP
100 Human Death Knight
10725
02/11/2012 16:11Posted by Primus
You dont get it... why should casual players want it to be harder?

If casual players don't want it to be harder, they can do Raid Finder instead of Normal mode, not the other way around. Why such a casual person would be doing Normal but not Raid Finder is unfathomable.


02/11/2012 16:11Posted by Primus
THese are the facts. Blizzard IS ignoring these facts atm.

Blizzard's not ignoring the facts. Those facts are true, but do not make raiding impossible. The majority in this thread have stated that gear from heroic dungeons is sufficient. If that is not enough for you, then with the greatest of respect that is a skill issue. Blizzard must cater to the majority.


02/11/2012 16:13Posted by Jvill
if you got to quote me, please quote the whole sentence.

The rest of your sentence was not relevant. I don't mean that it detracted from my point one iota; I mean it literally had nothing to do with my point. My point is one of semantics - the word if invalidated your argument, imo. If you believe the rest of your sentence was relevant, please elaborate.
Edited by Doomsinger on 02/11/2012 16:17 GMT
100 Draenei Paladin
12905
My guild and I killed the 4 first bosses in Hc dungeon gear. It´s al about communication! There has nothing to do with gear.
Some of us want to put in effort in order to kill bosses. we're not gonna let outselves slack behind on gear, when there's some easyly attainable for almost no effort. asking us not to do LFR if we dont want to do it, would be like telling us not to gem or enchant or gear.


we're not gonna let outselves slack behind on gear, when there's some easyly attainable for almost no effort.


And you wrote that back to back. The thing is, you are not forced to do it. Neither dailies for that matter. Dailies can be already considered obsolete gear wise because you can already get item level 496 gear from Heart of Fear.

It's a conscious choice you're making. You'd rather go through the LFR and pick that gear than wait until you get the appropriate drop from the normal/Heroic raid. That's alright, but it's your choice.
5 Dwarf Hunter
0
02/11/2012 16:14Posted by Nymíra


That will be true only for so long. Heroic Mogu'shan Vaults gear is higher ilvl (502) than that of Normal Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring (496), and well above the Raid Finder of those two raids (483).

But in all reality, let's put things into perspective in that regard, anyways. Let's assume that you do take all your 25 raid members to the Raid Finder in order to clear it. And that you are a Heroic raiding guild at the top of progression. How long does that really take? A guild of a friend of mine, still scratching Heroic raiding, can clear the two halves in something like 40 minutes. So, I'd go and argue that a Heroic-level guild could clear the whole place in 30? minutes.

What else could you do in that time? You could do dailies for a particular faction, surely. You could harvest materials for your profession or trade. Or play some pet battles. Thirty minutes. Unless you raid for thirty minutes as well every week, that doesn't sound as a massive time investment to me. So, is it really as demanding as some of you seem to pretend to imply?

Granted. I'm not arguing it takes a long time. I'm just saying it's mandatory. Even if not for the items the fact LFR has a higher chance (seemingly) to drop Sigils of Power (and undoubtedly Sigils of Wisdom) than heroic mode content causes LFR to become mandatory in many cases.

You are of course correct when it's just about gear. When people are decked in 502/509 gear, they will no longer need to run LFR. Nor will I need to run LFR when we're 6/6 HoF HC, 6/6 MSV HC, 4/4 ToES HC but until then I feel forced to do it, so do many others in my guild.

What I dislike strongly about the LFR setting though is that I could go AFK and still be eligible for loot (and believe me, I go AFK). It's not really fair for anyone: casuals who want to see content, heroic raiders "carrying" the group, normal raiders hoping for an item. The system is great: I love LFR, it lets me gear up my alts in a nice pace and you are correct when you argue about time spent.

Although you cannot probably say, what is the actual drop rate of Sigils from heroic modes? On my monk I have 14 sigils, of which 9 have been from LFR and 2 from normal mode MSV and 3 from heroic MSV. It feels a bit silly that LFR, from my point of view, is a better way to complete your legendary than the 'pinnacle' of raiding content.


LFR is the pinnacle of the raiding content. Most ppl will kill HOF LFR before they even kill the first boss in it on normal. Just a fact... And normal avarage players have zero say in it. Since the RNG is controlling their progress in normal raids. RNG meaning both gear drop and setup that is available every night.
42 Human Paladin
3035
WotLK model was a total joke and a lot of old raiders and big raid guilds full on quit after being able to blaze straight through everything.

See you might want to look at the fact that the reason almost every "wow killer" failed was the fact that endgame content was so short and easy most of the playerbase blasted through and quit from boredom.

People need to learn to accept they aren't always as great as they think and that if they want to be there in the front ranks claiming prestigious firsts they need to spend more time improving skills instead of drooling over gear that will fix it for them eventually.


erm...no ?

I doubt anyone blazed through hardmodes or T9 / T10 heroic mode.

Yeah let's make the entry level raid of MoP in even 10 man so freaking frustrating and 300% harder than LFR that's totally the way to keep customers, right ? Guess no because I am, and I know of some others which are already on the verge of canceling their sub. And it's not a skill problem.
90 Worgen Druid
5045
02/11/2012 16:11Posted by Doomsinger
which makes it mandatory if

If is a conditional statement, thus it is not mandatory.

It's great to see atleast one person in this thread that actually understand the meaning of the word mandatory :)
5 Dwarf Hunter
0
02/11/2012 16:18Posted by Draztal
Some of us want to put in effort in order to kill bosses. we're not gonna let outselves slack behind on gear, when there's some easyly attainable for almost no effort. asking us not to do LFR if we dont want to do it, would be like telling us not to gem or enchant or gear.


we're not gonna let outselves slack behind on gear, when there's some easyly attainable for almost no effort.


And you wrote that back to back. The thing is, you are not forced to do it. Neither dailies for that matter. Dailies can be already considered obsolete gear wise because you can already get item level 496 gear from Heart of Fear.

It's a conscious choice you're making. You'd rather go through the LFR and pick that gear than wait until you get the appropriate drop from the normal/Heroic raid. That's alright, but it's your choice.


So is Blizzard telling us you can go straight to HOF in 463 ilvl ? Or are they counting in that a 10 man guild might get unlucky and not have great drops that help the overall progression of the group in MSV?

I dont think you guys do. Cause if you did - then we would NOT be looking at bosses like Elegon with 4.6% success rate (counting ofc better guilds that run past there every week) that is preventing players to upgrade their weapons to 489 for HOF.

Blizzard can act like daylies and LFR and VALOR in that matter is optional. The thing is... its the KEY factor to prevent RNG to control the progress of a raid group. Specially in the 10 man groups where RNG can really hurt ppl in terms of usable items.

So - no ... for a normal player - casual player that wants to do normals... LFR is NOT optional. You could as well say that beeing lvl 90 is optional for that group of players.

At the end of the day - MOST wow players are not stupid. They want their character to progress. If they do not progress they will loose intrest and quit. Thats a real thing that can happen in the next few weeks with many of the more casual friendly guilds that are trying to progress at their own pace. Somehow BLizzard seems to forget that most casual guilds are deaing with REAL WORLD issues much more so than skills when it comes to raiding. Some1 can't play one night - no backup - or a backup that doesn't have the right buff. These are the REAL issues of normal 10 man raiding.

ANd when the 5th boss in an overall raid progression is litterally forcing ppl to do LFR to get the best chance of better weapons (best way to get more dps) then something IS wrong.
Edited by Primus on 02/11/2012 16:40 GMT
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