Forcing us to LFR to have succes in normal mode.

90 Tauren Druid
17585
I don't get the point.

Yes, you said hundred of times LFR is for supercasuals who doesn't have another way of seeing raid content. But i'm from a guild that does normal modes and i'm obliged to do it every week to be competitive, and it's not enough.

After 2 weeks of raiding, we haven't killed the Stone Guards yet.
This is not a problem in tanking position, low dps or bad healing. Its a gear only problem.

Raidleaders force us guildraiders to make LFR to get better gear (i'm almost ilvl470), probably because there is no faster way to get gear. If we don't you have to spend weeks farming valor points till you can buy that 2200vp gear you need, or you have to pay thousands of golds for a crafted item at the AH.

At this point like Zarhym said (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7006893247), blizzard don't "force" us normal mode raiders to do LFR, but it's a hidden obligeration. If you don't LFR (or you are a pro), you fail. So in certain mode, you are forcing us to get gear first from LFR and then go to normal mode to succeed.

If LFR it's just a casual addition for people who couldn't raid normal mode (for time reasons etc), why do you force normal raiders to have to pass this horrible LFR thing if they want to do something?

I think the problem is LFR is extremely easy and normal mode is a bit overtunned. Normal is a step above where it should be if you want an easy transition. That way probably, you shouldn't be forced to gear up in LFR and let it only for casuals who doesn't raid normal modes.

Thanks.


You must be trolling. You must be. If not, then God have mercy.

Anyway let's clear a few things up. LFR is completely optional. If you don't want to do it, then you don't do it. That's how simple it is. The only purpose of LFR is to give the casual players a chance to enjoy current raiding content. Some of these casual players probably want to PUG a few normal MSV bosses each week though, so who are you to take that away from them?

Normal mode MSV can be easily cleared in heroic dungeon gear (463 ilvl) even by average guilds. Yes, you don't need LFR items (476 ilvl) to clear MSV. You don't even need the VP gear from rep factions.

You, or better yet, your guild not being able to kill even the first boss in MSV should raise other kinds of questions. Like, judging from your armory, you are missing gloves enchant and 2 jewelcrafting gems. Maybe your spec is wrong? I don't know. But, if you have some problems with your gear, then who knows what the others in your guild are doing wrong.

It can be anything. Starting from properly enchanting and gemming your gear, having the right spec and glyphs to knowing the tactics and how to execute them.

This being said, LFR should be the least of your concerns. Check up some guides, watch some videos and GLHF in MSV.
90 Draenei Shaman
8985
WotLK model was a total joke and a lot of old raiders and big raid guilds full on quit after being able to blaze straight through everything.

See you might want to look at the fact that the reason almost every "wow killer" failed was the fact that endgame content was so short and easy most of the playerbase blasted through and quit from boredom.

People need to learn to accept they aren't always as great as they think and that if they want to be there in the front ranks claiming prestigious firsts they need to spend more time improving skills instead of drooling over gear that will fix it for them eventually.


erm...no ?

I doubt anyone blazed through hardmodes or T9 / T10 heroic mode.

Yeah let's make the entry level raid of MoP in even 10 man so freaking frustrating and 300% harder than LFR that's totally the way to keep customers, right ? Guess no because I am, and I know of some others which are already on the verge of canceling their sub. And it's not a skill problem.


you do realise that WotLk launch was tier 7 right? And that some people were blazing through those tiers you mentioned when they finally arrived, heck one guild even made a point of doing the fights in low gear using classes they were new to to keep a fragment of challenge alive.
02/11/2012 16:18Posted by Draztal
Some of us want to put in effort in order to kill bosses. we're not gonna let outselves slack behind on gear, when there's some easyly attainable for almost no effort. asking us not to do LFR if we dont want to do it, would be like telling us not to gem or enchant or gear.


we're not gonna let outselves slack behind on gear, when there's some easyly attainable for almost no effort.


And you wrote that back to back. The thing is, you are not forced to do it. Neither dailies for that matter. Dailies can be already considered obsolete gear wise because you can already get item level 496 gear from Heart of Fear.

It's a conscious choice you're making. You'd rather go through the LFR and pick that gear than wait until you get the appropriate drop from the normal/Heroic raid. That's alright, but it's your choice.


I'll admit, im not skilled enough to just walk into heart of fear and kill bosses. Yes i am trying to improve, another way of improving is getting as many physical advantages as i can. I can enchants my gear for a higher performance. and im going to do that. Also i can gem, reforge, buy flasks and potions because it increases my performance just as doing LFR or dalies increases my performance, and because it improves my performance im forced to do it. Everyone expects you to meet up to a raid prepared with enchants and food. and in reality theres no diffrence between gemming your gear and doing LFR, except for the fact that one of the two is alot more time consuming and frustrating while not entertaining us the least BUT it still rewards us.
100 Troll Hunter
16930
02/11/2012 16:18Posted by Draztal
It's a conscious choice you're making. You'd rather go through the LFR and pick that gear than wait until you get the appropriate drop from the normal/Heroic raid. That's alright, but it's your choice.


It's as much of a choice as asking people if they want to run 5 km to the 42 km maraton or catch a ride for these first 5 kms.

It's not a "choice". It is Mandatory. You have to do it if you want to be competative even if you are not in a realm first guild.
Edited by Monkylord on 02/11/2012 16:40 GMT
02/11/2012 16:39Posted by Monkylord
It's not a "choice". It is Mandatory. You have to do it if you want to be competative even if you are not in a realm first guild.


Please, by all means, define competitive. What is competitive when you're not pursuing a realm first that actually warrants running Raid Finder on every single reset? Because frankly, I can't see it. And it might be a perfect valid point.
02/11/2012 16:41Posted by Draztal
It's not a "choice". It is Mandatory. You have to do it if you want to be competative even if you are not in a realm first guild.


Please, by all means, define competitive. What is competitive when you're not pursuing a realm first that actually warrants running Raid Finder on every single reset? Because frankly, I can't see it. And it might be a perfect valid point.


theres other ways to compete than for realm/world first. internally in a guild for example.
96 Human Priest
15330
02/11/2012 16:39Posted by Monkylord
You have to do it if you want to be competative even if you are not in a realm first guild.


Newsflash! If you want to be competitive you have to put in more effort than those who don't want it.
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
02/11/2012 16:35Posted by Jvill
Everyone expects you to meet up to a raid prepared with enchants and food. and in reality theres no diffrence between gemming your gear and doing LFR, except for the fact that one of the two is alot more time consuming and frustrating while not entertaining us the least BUT it still rewards us.

I did Raid Finder and I got a Zian's Choker of Coalesced Shadow. I equipped it instantly. Didn't need a gem, an enchantment, reforging... even transmogrification wasn't applicable to it. I sold my previous amulet for gold. I also got gold and some Valor Points for doing the LFR run, which I did with friends and enjoyed.

I prefer earning gold to spending it, and I think it's fair to say that Raid Finder offers a lot more gameplay than what enchanting does, important as it is. I accept your opinion as being valid, but I would argue that the opinion of myself and others is equally valid. Perhaps I've been luckier with LFR groups.

If you want to take on the responsibility of doing everything possible to gear up your character for raids, then that's admirable and you're an asset to your Guild. If you want to raid with your friends without doing Raid Finder, that is every bit as fine. You can still raid without any problems.

tl;dr: Raid Finder wasn't essential before it was added to the game. I don't see what's changed since.
Edited by Doomsinger on 02/11/2012 16:46 GMT
42 Human Paladin
3035
02/11/2012 16:31Posted by Unendinglife
you do realise that WotLk launch was tier 7 right? And that some people were blazing through those tiers you mentioned when they finally arrived, heck one guild even made a point of doing the fights in low gear using classes they were new to to keep a fragment of challenge alive.


Please you need to stop assuming that 24/7 players which made this game their life is the standard.

And I'm not complaining that hardcore content is too easy, I am complaining that casual content (which 10 mans normal should be) is too hard and inaccessible.

And that was not a problem in WotLK.
Edited by Eoria on 02/11/2012 16:49 GMT
5 Dwarf Hunter
0
It's not a "choice". It is Mandatory. You have to do it if you want to be competative even if you are not in a realm first guild.


Please, by all means, define competitive. What is competitive when you're not pursuing a realm first that actually warrants running Raid Finder on every single reset? Because frankly, I can't see it. And it might be a perfect valid point.


Competitive is in that case the need for a person to progress - not only his own character but the guild he is in. If that does not happen - that person has the choise of:

a) leaving his guild to progress
b) quitting the game

Get real - RPG games are about progress. When you dont have progress - you loose intrest in a RPG game. Specially when that game does not in any way value anything other than Competition when they design the game in the first place.
Edited by Primus on 02/11/2012 16:50 GMT
90 Tauren Shaman
11425
to resume my point after reading all this thread:

i don't see how lfr is mandatory wen i killed the 3 bosses i did with 454 ilvl =/
90 Blood Elf Monk
12470
You don't need the gear from LFR to succeed in heroic modes, this is pretty clearly proven by Method, Blood Legion, Envy et al. What is however mandatory (as I previously stated) is the fact LFR seems to give a greater return on Sigils of Power (unknown if Wisdom is the same at this time) than both normal and heroic raid lockouts do. I don't think this could be possibly intended.
98 Human Mage
15075
Daily quests obsolete because of higher level loot? I'm primarily doing August Celestials to exalted in order to have access to the bag pattern. I have two tailors and the cloth is soulbound, so to make bags on both, the other one will also have to get Golden Lotus revered and then August Celestials exalted. It will be slightly faster with the 50% bonus reputation in patch 5.1, which is one reason why I'm not going to even start before that.

Capping valor every week with the current rewards is probably not worth doing until eternity, but in patch 5.1, we'll start sinking valor into gear upgrades and those are worth doing.

I'm generally pretty good at doing daily quests, but at this point I feel about the same as after I had gotten three characters to exalted on the Molten Front daily quests (all in parallel). I know I should self-regulate better, but I guess I'm motivated by achievable goals enough so that I keep going even when I'm getting a bit tired.

I have this character at 90 with only about a week more of August Celestials (and they're not too much work tbh). Two characters at 89 and I'm holding back because I don't want to be tempted to start grinding their reputations, valor, conquest & gear the way I did on this one.
90 Night Elf Priest
0
Oh good lord this thread is hilarious :D
My guild is by no means a bleeding edge progression guild. We just raid to have fun.
When we cleared normal MSV, I remember our warrior doing less dps than our BM hunters pet ^^ Not really his fault, he was still running around in questing greens and lvl 85 epics, because of lack of time (believe his ilvl was 450 or something).

Point being: No, LFR gear is in no way a must have to progress in any way, no matter how casual you are. Newsflash - Most of the bosses actually punish you for playing bad. I have a feeling that is the real issue OP and his guild are encountering.
90 Worgen Druid
5045
02/11/2012 16:35Posted by Jvill




And you wrote that back to back. The thing is, you are not forced to do it. Neither dailies for that matter. Dailies can be already considered obsolete gear wise because you can already get item level 496 gear from Heart of Fear.

It's a conscious choice you're making. You'd rather go through the LFR and pick that gear than wait until you get the appropriate drop from the normal/Heroic raid. That's alright, but it's your choice.


I'll admit, im not skilled enough to just walk into heart of fear and kill bosses. Yes i am trying to improve, another way of improving is getting as many physical advantages as i can. I can enchants my gear for a higher performance. and im going to do that. Also i can gem, reforge, buy flasks and potions because it increases my performance just as doing LFR or dalies increases my performance, and because it improves my performance im forced to do it. Everyone expects you to meet up to a raid prepared with enchants and food. and in reality theres no diffrence between gemming your gear and doing LFR, except for the fact that one of the two is alot more time consuming and frustrating while not entertaining us the least BUT it still rewards us.


Basically by removing LFR (by removing I mean putting shared lock with normals) you will actually gimp yourself. Which has the exact same effect as if LFR is there but you just don't do it.

Grow up and learn how to deal with peer pressure. There's no reason to remove game content from people who can handle peer pressure just because some people can't. The whole argument about making yourself perform better just falls to pieces when you want to remove a (optional) way of making yourself perform better.
MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10665
02/11/2012 16:50Posted by Ravinne
Basically by removing LFR (by removing I mean putting shared lock with normals) you will actually gimp yourself. Which has the exact same effect as if LFR is there but you just don't do it.

It also means that people like myself can't do Normal mode with one group of friends and Raid Finder with another. I take exception to a change being made if it negatively affects me and achieves nothing.
90 Pandaren Monk
13565
[quote="58468386084"]
tl;dr: Raid Finder wasn't essential before it was added to the game. I don't see what's changed since.


Derp.

Other path's of progression WERE though, give lfr same item level loot as heroic dungeons or have them drop items from the same item pool as heroics, that way people aren't for want of a better descriptive term "forced" into doing said content in order to obtain gear to progress.

Similarly remove strong items from BMAH..
90 Undead Rogue
7900
More often than not - alot of guilds value other things more than skills only. Those guilds should not raid other than LFR. Thats what they are really saying.


What I'm saying is that it generally is gear difference which separates DPS levels. There's nothing skillful in being able to press 1-1-1-2-3-repeat for 10 minutes, or even interupting something or blinding a stray mob once in a while.
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