Pandaria reputation tabards

90 Worgen Druid
6790
This seems to be a forums wide topic about people missing the reputation tabards for the Pandaria factions. Many people are glad they are gone and also a lot like to see them returned.

I'm one of them liking to see them back for several reasons and it's not about the big grind doing dailies. However to me, with limited play time it will take forever to earn a higher standing with a faction. I have time for one thing at a time, running dungeons or doing dailies.

Blizzard removed the tabards because they wanted people back into the world and that is actually a good thing. However, what I often see is a lot of people around indeed, but all doing their own thing. To my experience doing dailies is rather lonely. I can't speak for all of course, but hardly anyone teams up.

Another reason that I've found for myself is I don't have time running dungeons while needing to do the dailies in order to build up reputation needing to eventually spending my valor points. So I'm missing the learning experience fighting my toon in a group setting and max my performance. With dailies it's just one on one fights most of the time, plus there is the lack of the social aspect doing things group wise.

If one has just one character, then eventually things could be achieved I suppose, but most of us have more than one and I seriously don't like to go through all the dailies twice or even more times.

I think, like it is now, only the ones with a lot of time to play have the opportuniy to earn reputation fairly easily and run instances, compared to the ones with less time to really enjoy this first patch of this expansion. For us casual players, not speaking for all of course, it's become more of a chore than it's ever been.

Hence I would like the reputation tabards back, but to make it fair with weekly cap or so. And the hard core or "old skool" players always have the choice of grinding rep as it is now.

I'm not after any arguing about this, I just wanted to get this off my chest. Responds are welcome.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
11925
Somebody at Blizzard already stated they are looking into the whole reputation system. Basically they are trying to find a middle ground where you can gain rep from dungeons, but not in an unlimited fashion (like you could in Cata and before). So something like a daily limit from certain heroic dungeons for certain factions. That to me, would be a nice middle ground solution.

That said, I still don't really agree with reasoning as that you bring to the table. Basically you say "I don't have the time available to get everything I want, but I still want it". You are playing an mmo, that requires time and dedication. People with more time are done grinding reps by now, you however are not. No shame in that, working as intended, but please look at yourself why you feel so bad for all of this. Blizzard is not to blame. In the end they can't win when players keep attitudes like this up.

Every mmo has a grinding aspect that will always be dominated by those with more time. Nothing in the world can change this. Do you think all those early 6/6 heroic raiding guilds are made up of awesome players? Hell no, I bet the average casual guild has equal or better raiders. Those top guilds simply have more time to spend. Time to do the same bosses on ptr for 100+ wipes before it even goes live. Time is the only factor separating one from top spot and dangling at the bottom. And so does time means the difference between just doing a heroic dungeon everyday or doing multiple dungeons, lfr, dailies, crafting, gathering, farming, etc etc.
Edited by Aenyo on 15/11/2012 09:18 GMT
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90 Gnome Mage
17180
15/11/2012 09:15Posted by Aenyo
Basically they are trying to find a middle ground where you can gain rep from dungeons, but not in an unlimited fashion (like you could in Cata and before).

Is there a source on this?
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90 Worgen Death Knight
14575
Maybe a tabard should become available at friendly, and will give you rep up until you hit revered, then you go with dailies from there.
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90 Gnome Mage
17180
15/11/2012 09:24Posted by Skrauhg
Maybe a tabard should become available at friendly, and will give you rep up until you hit revered, then you go with dailies from there.

I disagree with this quite a lot. Tabards to get rep were never a good game design and it's managed to burrow its way into the minds of many that it's a good idea. Convenience is one thing but lumping most aspects of the game into the same thing is a poor design. 5 man dungeons give valor points. They let you buy gear. They give justice points, which also allows you to buy gear. They drop gear directly. They should not also provide reputation with any or all factions with Pandaria because they happened to be wearing a tabard. No, that trivializes all reputations completely. Cataclysm and WotLK reputations were already extremely trivial because you could just pop a tabard on, go about your day and get reputation whilst also doing whatever it was you were doing anyway.

As horrible as daily quests are, it's content. Merging content with other content reduces what's available to players. A suitable midground wouldn't be a tabard at all, but alternative ways to get reputation which don't clash with other aspects of the game. More variation in daily quests which aren't "kill x, loot y, click on z". Roll Club, one of the Golden Lotus daily quests. I'd like to see more of that. Of course there's nothing wrong with quests which involve killing things but wiping out an entire species of Mushan just to get 4 tongues which never drop for some illogical reason loses a lot of its appeal after the first 2 times you do it.
Edited by Kris on 15/11/2012 09:33 GMT
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90 Worgen Death Knight
11925
15/11/2012 09:23Posted by Kris
Basically they are trying to find a middle ground where you can gain rep from dungeons, but not in an unlimited fashion (like you could in Cata and before).

Is there a source on this?

Actually was featured yesterday on joystiq with a quoted piece from Zarhym.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/11/13/the-evolving-design-of-reputation/
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90 Worgen Druid
6790
Somebody at Blizzard already stated they are looking into the whole reputation system. Basically they are trying to find a middle ground where you can gain rep from dungeons, but not in an unlimited fashion (like you could in Cata and before). So something like a daily limit from certain heroic dungeons for certain factions. That to me, would be a nice middle ground solution.

That said, I still don't really agree with reasoning as that you bring to the table. Basically you say "I don't have the time available to get everything I want, but I still want it". You are playing an mmo, that requires time and dedication. People with more time are done grinding reps by now, you however are not. No shame in that, working as intended, but please look at yourself why you feel so bad for all of this. Blizzard is not to blame. In the end they can't win when players keep attitudes like this up.

Every mmo has a grinding aspect that will always be dominated by those with more time. Nothing in the world can change this. Do you think all those early 6/6 heroic raiding guilds are made up of awesome players? Hell no, I bet the average casual guild has equal or better raiders. Those top guilds simply have more time to spend. Time to do the same bosses on ptr for 100+ wipes before it even goes live. Time is the only factor separating one from top spot and dangling at the bottom. And so does time means the difference between just doing a heroic dungeon everyday or doing multiple dungeons, lfr, dailies, crafting, gathering, farming, etc etc.


I do realize playing an MMO requires time and effort to achieve things, I'd be the last person to disagree. For what I know reputation tabards are introduced in Wrath of the Lich King and I'm actually a Wrath baby, meaning I started playing WoW during that expansion.

For what I've heard and don't pin me down on this, the reputation system is similar to the one used in the Burning Cruisade. Except back in those days one also received reputation per kill one made doing dailies, which is not the case in this patch. I don't know about dungeons, but nowadays BC dungeons give reputation automatically to a faction, dependant on that particular instance.

I disagree with you saying about me having less time, but wanting to have all. I would like to have some because to have all the best there's currently available just takes more time and effort. Plus that was not the only thing I brought to the table. How about the social aspect of the game? If I had the choice of running instances with a group or doing dailies alone with similar rewards as in reputation, I would definately choose the group effort. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate dailies, I'm doing them as much as I can and I still would do them if reputation tabards were available, just for the variety of gameplay.

As for possible future rep tabards in general. They don't have to be unlimited rewarding as we got doing dailies or as it was during Wrath and Cataclysm. They can have a weekly cap for example to prevent people from hanging in cities and wait for the next dungeon to pop up. Most people will always have better things than me, it always has been that way and I'm fine with that. But I stick to my opinion that the current reputation system isn't working out well as in variety in the game for casual players or having multiple characters where people have spent a lot of time on.

I'm curious what Blizzard comes up with like you said, that would be awesome.
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90 Worgen Druid
6790
15/11/2012 09:32Posted by Kris
Maybe a tabard should become available at friendly, and will give you rep up until you hit revered, then you go with dailies from there.

I disagree with this quite a lot. Tabards to get rep were never a good game design and it's managed to burrow its way into the minds of many that it's a good idea. Convenience is one thing but lumping most aspects of the game into the same thing is a poor design. 5 man dungeons give valor points. They let you buy gear. They give justice points, which also allows you to buy gear. They drop gear directly. They should not also provide reputation with any or all factions with Pandaria because they happened to be wearing a tabard. No, that trivializes all reputations completely. Cataclysm and WotLK reputations were already extremely trivial because you could just pop a tabard on, go about your day and get reputation whilst also doing whatever it was you were doing anyway.

As horrible as daily quests are, it's content. Merging content with other content reduces what's available to players. A suitable midground wouldn't be a tabard at all, but alternative ways to get reputation which don't clash with other aspects of the game. More variation in daily quests which aren't "kill x, loot y, click on z". Roll Club, one of the Golden Lotus daily quests. I'd like to see more of that. Of course there's nothing wrong with quests which involve killing things but wiping out an entire species of Mushan just to get 4 tongues which never drop for some illogical reason loses a lot of its appeal after the first 2 times you do it.


I hear you. Been there and done that. Apart from a tabard, suppose we forget about a rep tabard. Would then perhaps dungeon kills reward reputation be a good idea? One instance gives rep to faction x and the other to faction y, so it would be totally random where one ends up using the dungeon finder, also again with a weekly cap so one has to get into the world and earn the rest of one has the time for it. I don't see Blizzard creating more dailies for a already excisting faction.

By the way, I don't get the reputation for gear at all... For mounts at exalted, totally. As long as I play this game as a casual player I've always ran around with two tiers lower than the 'hardcore' players and one tier under the regular player. And it will always be this way.
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90 Undead Death Knight
10135
15/11/2012 09:32Posted by Kris
Tabards to get rep were never a good game design and it's managed to burrow its way into the minds of many that it's a good idea.


Rep in general was never good game design. There's pretty much no way to avoid making it either a grind or negligible (in that you get the rep you need as you level anyways).

That's why the tabards were so popular. They let you practically skip the rep grinding, and get the rewards while doing what you actually wanted to do.

The one thing I don't understand is this: if a mechanic is so disliked that many people would do all they could to bypass it rather than experience it, why would one make it a large focal point of the next iteration of the game?
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90 Worgen Druid
6790
15/11/2012 09:36Posted by Aenyo

Is there a source on this?

Actually was featured yesterday on joystiq with a quoted piece from Zarhym.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/11/13/the-evolving-design-of-reputation/


This is actually a good article, thank you.
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90 Worgen Druid
6790
Tabards to get rep were never a good game design and it's managed to burrow its way into the minds of many that it's a good idea.


Rep in general was never good game design. There's pretty much no way to avoid making it either a grind or negligible (in that you get the rep you need as you level anyways).

That's why the tabards were so popular. They let you practically skip the rep grinding, and get the rewards while doing what you actually wanted to do.

The one thing I don't understand is this: if a mechanic is so disliked that many people would do all they could to bypass it rather than experience it, why would one make it a large focal point of the next iteration of the game?


Probably because, a friend told me this who plays from the beginning, many of those have complained around the forums things were too easy and apparently Blizzard listened to them, forgetting the game has evolved to be for everyone. Hence I've started this topic in addition to similar forum topics in order to get the same attention as "them" and that way hopefully things will be compromized to keep us all happy.

Without reputation there is enough to grind for anyway, making this game almost a career instead of relax time playing a game after a hard day of labour or school or whatever. But we have to deal with rep, hence I'm pro reputation tabards or faction instance related rep in order to get some variety from doing only dailies and there are a lot!
Edited by Kolynos on 16/11/2012 08:33 GMT
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90 Tauren Warrior
7650
[quote="58472527113"]5 man dungeons give valor points. They let you buy gear. They give justice points, which also allows you to buy gear.


Not if you haven't got the rep to unlock access to said gear. I'm sitting on 2000 VP's, want to upgrade as I'm 369 ilvl with gear in bags but I can't, I have to wait out at least another week of dailies to do so. That's what I call fun! :D
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90 Gnome Warlock
5555
Tabards would be good if there were a healthy number of dungeons.

But we've only got 5 new dungeons with Pandaria, and 2-3 revamps, depending on how you count SM. Now if only some of the effort that went into designing hundreds of daily quests had went into building another half a dozen 5-man dungeons...

Casual endgame in the last 3 expansions has been all about running dungeons - doing small-group content - to farm points/badges for upgrades. It's sad that has been lost with Pandaria. JP and VP are both currently fairly useless.

I refuse to do daily chores, so there's little point even logging on a main character once the weekly LFR run is done, as I'm no longer doing 'proper raiding'. Getting ilvl470 for the 2nd tier of LFR is insanely luck-based for those refusing to do the chores, too.

It's ridiculous that so much has been tied to the chores. If it was just a few items and vanity mounts, then fine - but it's not. It's also all the best recipies, and even your rolls in LFR. Sad times.
Edited by Afterglow on 16/11/2012 08:54 GMT
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90 Worgen Druid
6790
16/11/2012 08:42Posted by Meatfist
[quote]
5 man dungeons give valor points. They let you buy gear. They give justice points, which also allows you to buy gear.


Not if you haven't got the rep to unlock access to said gear. I'm sitting on 2000 VP's, want to upgrade as I'm 369 ilvl with gear in bags but I can't, I have to wait out at least another week of dailies to do so. That's what I call fun! :D


Exactly, with Justice Points you can buy iLvL 450 gear at honored and some epics. But if you want the real stuff you have to be at least revered. Valor gear takes months to get everything with the cap of 1000 a week. It has been this way since Cataclysm, which is okay. And if you have the time to grind the rep in order to spend your Valor Points, then I suppose it's fine too. Except many of us don't have the time to grind the rep in it's current system, let alone getting another char going through all this, for instance the newly released monk class.
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90 Worgen Druid
6790
Tabards would be good if there were a healthy number of dungeons.

But we've only got 5 new dungeons with Pandaria, and 2-3 revamps, depending on how you count SM. Now if only some of the effort that went into designing hundreds of daily quests had went into building another half a dozen 5-man dungeons...

Casual endgame in the last 3 expansions has been all about running dungeons - doing small-group content - to farm points/badges for upgrades. It's sad that has been lost with Pandaria. JP and VP are both currently fairly useless.

I refuse to do daily chores, so there's little point even logging on a main character once the weekly LFR run is done, as I'm no longer doing 'proper raiding'. Getting ilvl470 for the 2nd tier of LFR is insanely luck-based for those refusing to do the chores, too.

It's ridiculous that so much has been tied to the chores. If it was just a few items and vanity mounts, then fine - but it's not. It's also all the best recipies, and even your rolls in LFR. Sad times.


Well, you nailed that one! Especially concerning the last patch of Cataclysm. One just had to run HoT's and you end up fully with 378 epic items. Perhaps Blizzard will do the same with the very last patch of MoP. I bet championing tabards (rep tabards) would make you play more on your main as you can spend your hard worked for Valor Points. I vote for them to return.
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90 Worgen Death Knight
11925
16/11/2012 07:51Posted by Kiqjaq
The one thing I don't understand is this: if a mechanic is so disliked that many people would do all they could to bypass it rather than experience it, why would one make it a large focal point of the next iteration of the game?

Because Blizzard cannot come up with a better system to "gate" gear. They don't want people able to get all the gear on day 1. The gap between casual and insanely driven players will be too big.

That is why they put everything behind reputations, gates, tiers, anything to prevent instant access.

Not saying it is perfect at all, but I would like to hear some proper solutions...
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13840
I'm glad the rep tabards are gone and I hope they never come back.
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90 Tauren Warrior
7650
The one thing I don't understand is this: if a mechanic is so disliked that many people would do all they could to bypass it rather than experience it, why would one make it a large focal point of the next iteration of the game?

Because Blizzard cannot come up with a better system to "gate" gear. They don't want people able to get all the gear on day 1. The gap between casual and insanely driven players will be too big.

That is why they put everything behind reputations, gates, tiers, anything to prevent instant access.

Not saying it is perfect at all, but I would like to hear some proper solutions...


Surely the "gating" is covered by the VP cap though? It will still take months to get every valor item possible with that alone and by then new content with higher iLvl will likely be on the way. There's no need for the VP cap AND the ever-tedious rep grind system.

Again if you have one char there's really nothing to complain about, there's plenty to see and do, daily rep is ok and even LFR is nearly at the stage it takes a day to get through all the raids - where a problem starts to come in is with two+ chars, this system gets old EXTREMELY quickly and puts you off playing.
Edited by Meatfist on 16/11/2012 10:42 GMT
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90 Worgen Death Knight
11925
16/11/2012 10:40Posted by Meatfist
Again if you have one char there's really nothing to complain about, there's plenty to see and do, daily rep is ok and even LFR is nearly at the stage it takes a day to get through all the raids - where a problem starts to come in is with two+ chars, this system gets old EXTREMELY quickly and puts you off playing.

That is why I still wish we had account bound reputation. But I am aware certain people don't want this either.
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