Warriors are fine, it's a L2P issue

90 Tauren Paladin
11920
06/11/2012 17:45Posted by Vaju
Got to love that blue guy, trying to defend this rofl, only a payed person can say.


Beat me to it damnit :)
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4 Human Warlock
0
Warrior is meant to be the strongest. Order has been restored (well almost, Rogue could use a good buff). Other classes can do crazy big crits too though, so don't cry, L2P.
Edited by Delories on 06/11/2012 17:53 GMT
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62 Pandaren Mage
3555
06/11/2012 17:45Posted by Vaju
Got to love that blue guy, trying to defend this rofl


I actually appreciate the feedback. I might not agree with it but I appreciate the communication.
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1 Human Monk
0
Lets just be honest; TFB is horribly designed from a pvp pov.

- Its useless for the warriors since its far to RNG to rely on.
- It causes huge rage from the community since noone likes to get one shot. Even if it happens only once every 5-10 games.
- A one (or close to one) shot is pretty much impossible to counter. There are two teams and both team can provide burst windows and peels. If someone can kill in 1 secs however it will be damn easy to create that burst window since he needs only 2 secs of up time to kill.
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
06/11/2012 17:11Posted by Nakatoir
Please understand that we are in no way saying that this damage is fine, but it does take a lot of work for a Warrior to do this and can be predicted.


It takes RNG, not work. It's a stupid concept and it should be gone from PvP.
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90 Orc Monk
10900
06/11/2012 17:21Posted by Nakatoir
I never said that Warrior burst was not fine >.> I just said that the 230K crit you see here is a lot of damage and that we are not implying that this much damage from one skill is fine.


so when is TfB getting fixed :)

imo if tfb got fixed warriors would be fine.
Edited by Soku on 06/11/2012 18:02 GMT
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90 Undead Priest
8495
Warriors are fine, just monitor Taste for Blood guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIw4MAUFCaM
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Community
06/11/2012 17:23Posted by Saneko
If you pop all defenses possible as healer on yourself the thing that a warrior does is switching target and hitting the other person full in the face.
The Warrior only has one chance with their TFB. What I meant was that if you see those TFB stacks and the Warrior pops his cooldowns, if your reactions are good you can make him waste the TFB stacks. If they use up those TFB stacks on someone with their defensive cooldowns, the switch they make after is not all that scary.

06/11/2012 17:25Posted by Serpian
....Please understand that we are in no way saying that this damage is fine, but it does take a lot of work for a Warrior to do this and can be predicted....


Not taking your words out of context here, but a warrior takes a lot of work to get TFB stacks to 5?

That's like doing the lottery and winning, saying it's "a lot of work".

It's RNG, simple as that, and to win games off of the back of RNG and RNG alone, is not something that should have even made it live, seeing as it's an intended mechanic and not a bug that was overshadowed on the Beta.

As we're keeping this to one thread, to prove my point at just how quick a warrior can get 5 stacks of TFB and end a match instantly, watch the following:

>>http://de.twitch.tv/dakkrothwow/b/338084424?t=4h2m35s<<

That fight lasts about 30seconds, maye a little more? So difficult to prevent! So easy to anticipate! Just stop the warrior...
I never denied the fact that it was RNG and yes, there can be times where this happens. While you are strongly suggesting that it makes it easy to get, I would argue with. If luck is in your favor you can indeed get the stacks on your first try five times in a row, but the chance of that happening is 0.243% so I would consider the clip you linked a freak occurrence. In general though, it is something that requires you to be stuck to your target and trying many times to get to several stacks of TFB. And again, while not always possible but can help, monitoring the warriors buffs can let you know when this damage is incoming and the changes in patch 5.1 will make it harder for a Warrior to stick to a target and get those TFB stacks.

06/11/2012 17:45Posted by Vaju
Got to love that blue guy, trying to defend this rofl, only a payed person can say.
Urrr...
06/11/2012 17:21Posted by Nakatoir
I just said that the 230K crit you see here is a lot of damage and that we are not implying that this much damage from one skill is fine.
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90 Human Hunter
8575
Yea warriors are fine rng np its skill dw guys takes a lot of effort

Oh and btw, avatar nerf isnt gonna help much. Warriors still have the best mobility ingame. 2x charge, leap, dispel+charge intervene...and playing with a paladin grants you permanent freedom anyway.

Im critting up to 80k on my 85 warr with mortal strike on mobs. So I cant imagine how much dmg fully geared 90 warr does with ms and execute. Doesnt seem like its all about heroic strike. Im forced to trinket shockwave and deterr immediately vs many warrior teams.

If they would just fix warriors, mages and hybrid healing, this game would be fine =)
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90 Worgen Warrior
20025
Why yes warriors need to get nerfed hard.Actually,since warriors are already really really mediocre and sub par in pve,and since so many people require nerfs to an underperforming pve class for pvp reasons (a burst that takes a minute to build which is so hard to predict...not) , why dont we ban warriors from entering any raids or instances in any specc other than prot?That will show em.

In all seriousness though,i see so many people bubbling about nerfs here and nerfs there, i see blues talking about reducing our burst, and yet i don't see anyone talking about how they intend to fix our pve dps or at least compensate for the changes in pvp so that our already underperforming class is not completely crossed out the map.I guess even the blues like to succumb and deteriorate topics in just trolling fests.
Edited by Neekko on 06/11/2012 18:21 GMT
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90 Human Warrior
13135
just give the blasted spell a good old "colossus smash" overhaul.
like 30% less dmg on players or so.

E:
and while it is a active blue in this thread, i got a suggestion about Taste for blood.

stacks reduced from 5 to 3 (200% less 1shot)
but make each OP have a 100% chance for a stack.
this would also make warrior dps less rng and bursty 1shot style.

sounds good?
if yes, trow it on the ptr so we can get some testing done :D
Edited by Zomy on 06/11/2012 18:25 GMT
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90 Night Elf Druid
0
I find it disgusting that Blizzard even considers having a oneshot skill in PvP.

Just so damn disappointed.
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89 Worgen Warrior
13170
If you pop all defenses possible as healer on yourself the thing that a warrior does is switching target and hitting the other person full in the face.

And then you lost a 2v2.

2v2 isn't balanced.

Also, if you're playing with any CC that can peel it's sincerely doubtful the Warrior will be able to just switch and unload burst.
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90 Human Priest
12250
06/11/2012 18:04Posted by Nakatoir
If you pop all defenses possible as healer on yourself the thing that a warrior does is switching target and hitting the other person full in the face.
The Warrior only has one chance with their TFB. What I meant was that if you see those TFB stacks and the Warrior pops his cooldowns, if your reactions are good you can make him waste the TFB stacks. If they use up those TFB stacks on someone with their defensive cooldowns, the switch they make after is not all that scary.



Not taking your words out of context here, but a warrior takes a lot of work to get TFB stacks to 5?

That's like doing the lottery and winning, saying it's "a lot of work".

It's RNG, simple as that, and to win games off of the back of RNG and RNG alone, is not something that should have even made it live, seeing as it's an intended mechanic and not a bug that was overshadowed on the Beta.

As we're keeping this to one thread, to prove my point at just how quick a warrior can get 5 stacks of TFB and end a match instantly, watch the following:

>>http://de.twitch.tv/dakkrothwow/b/338084424?t=4h2m35s<<

That fight lasts about 30seconds, maye a little more? So difficult to prevent! So easy to anticipate! Just stop the warrior...
I never denied the fact that it was RNG and yes, there can be times where this happens. While you are strongly suggesting that it makes it easy to get, I would argue with. If luck is in your favor you can indeed get the stacks on your first try five times in a row, but the chance of that happening is 0.243% so I would consider the clip you linked a freak occurrence. In general though, it is something that requires you to be stuck to your target and trying many times to get to several stacks of TFB. And again, while not always possible but can help, monitoring the warriors buffs can let you know when this damage is incoming and the changes in patch 5.1 will make it harder for a Warrior to stick to a target and get those TFB stacks.

06/11/2012 17:45Posted by Vaju
Got to love that blue guy, trying to defend this rofl, only a payed person can say.
Urrr...
06/11/2012 17:21Posted by Nakatoir
I just said that the 230K crit you see here is a lot of damage and that we are not implying that this much damage from one skill is fine.


No class in the game should be able to hit this much. NOT A SINGLE CLASS OR SPEC OR SKILL. And this 230K is nothing compared to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k49V1u7KSIM
http://www.twitch.tv/dakkrothwow/b/338084424?t=4h2m35s

These players are getting hit for 300K+

I repeat THIS DAMAGE IS NOT FINE. And stop trying to defend the fact "oh you need to stack your HFB" check the pov of this warrior who is the attacker in link I've posted...

He takes 7 seconds SEVEN seconds to stack HFB to full... yes he got lucky... but I don't want to get one shotted just because someone got lucky...

And even if this guy could see that this damage is coming even if he used his defensive cooldowns he would again got hit for 150K DMG which is way to much...

Do something with this dumb thing. You are addressing wrong issues when it comes to warrior... With all those nerfes warrior's have gotten still won't fix this. They will still be able to kill someone within a global cooldown...
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13100
06/11/2012 18:20Posted by Hysteriä
I repeat THIS DAMAGE IS NOT FINE.


He quite clearly said that, twice in fact >.<
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90 Human Hunter
8575
06/11/2012 18:25Posted by Vixea
I repeat THIS DAMAGE IS NOT FINE.


He quite clearly said that, twice in fact >.<

Yea, thats why they're not fixing it...

So simple to cap stack at 3 or something. Add some cooldown conjunction restrictions...anything. But no :|
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86 Night Elf Priest
11000
Cba reading the blue responce even. This is where I stopped

06/11/2012 17:11Posted by Nakatoir
Actually, in a way you can. If you monitor the Warriors buffs, you will be able to see the number of Taste for Blood (TFB) stacks that are building up and this is can indicate when the cooldowns are going to be popped and the big damage is incoming.


Thanks a lot captain obvious...

My defendsive cooldowns will make me live 4 more seconds.

This whole thread and discussion and even the blue post are freaking pointless.

BOTTOMLINE : NERF WARRIOR DAMAGE ALREADY !

I don't care what it takes to get this kind of damage. It should never be possible to happen PERIOD. How delussional are these freaking """designers.""" . How oblivious is GC

After 11 seasons of arena, the PvP-scene is wors then season 1 ( I have no freaking clue how one manages to do that, but hey, Blizzard is special, full of special people)... At this rate S13 will be dominated by one particullar class winning 1v3.
Edited by Axora on 06/11/2012 18:31 GMT
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87 Night Elf Druid
4715
The main change that does this is the one to Avatar, which removes movement impairing effects rather than making you immune to them, this is because your up-time will not be nearly as high. This means that while you may very rarely still see a large heroic strike like this because someone is good enough or the Warrior is facing someone who is struggling to keep their distance, they will be less common. If a Warrior is good enough to build those stacks though, you can anticipate the incoming damage by watching their TFB stacks.

So this change to Avatar lowers two key issues with Warriors, mobility and burst and the Gag Order change helps with their control. Do not think that these change makes Warriors too controllable or weak in Arena, they will simply no longer be able to turn into an unstoppable wrecking ball and build up TFB stacks then afterwards global a player.


My key concern with your post - aside from the impression that you seem to be putting a lot of effort into avoiding a clear stance on this issue - is that your developers don't seem to learn anything from the past, as evidenced by this jewel:

06/11/2012 17:11Posted by Nakatoir
This means that while you may very rarely still see a large heroic strike like this because someone is good enough or the Warrior is facing someone who is struggling to keep their distance, they will be less common.


Very rarely is not rare enough in PvP. Never is where it should be. It's essentially the same problem as we saw back in TBC with Mace Stun (to stay with the same class): Yes, it very rarely happened that Warriors landed chains on you - but when it did happen, you were pretty much dead. And neither of these two abilities requires "skill", no RNG procs do that. In Arenas, ensuring more or less constant uptime is to a large extent your healer's task. And while Dispel is on an eight second cooldown nowadays (another fantastic joke considering the amount of CC), dispelling your Warrior is not something that requires "skill".

Furthermore I find it absurd that you're implying we should be constantly babysitting the Warrior's buffs. As you yourself duely noted, this isn't always possible. In practice, it is also not possible to react accordingly to five stacks of TfB. Taking Hunters as an example, what do you expect him to do when he sees five stacks? Pop Deterrence immediately so it's over before the Warrior actually uses his cooldowns (because this Warrior isn't a complete idiot) or try to anticipate it and fail because all of this happens in one global? Not to mention all it takes is a Charge stun.

If you had actually acknowledged that TfB in its current incarnation is a problem in PvP I wouldn't have bothered to argue with you. But I find the lack of understanding that you're displaying here quite shocking but truthfully I shouldn't even be surprised anymore. I have seen you guys struggling to balance even the simplest things for 12 seasons straight, refusing to make slight adjustments when that was all that was needed. All because it's your company's opinion that making little changes will alienate players? Please. If anything alienates players, it's 9 months of static Rogue/RLS dominance followed by what I presume is going to be at least 3 months of idiotic burst.
Edited by Kerberusx on 06/11/2012 18:34 GMT
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90 Human Warrior
11165
Id love if blizzard could rework Taste for Blood entirely. It only creates problems for PvP.
What warriors need is more sustained and lover burst damage.
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90 Human Rogue
10655
For a Warrior to build up enough stacks to global a player like seen in this video, they need a incredible amounts of up time to make sure the stacks of TFB do not fall off before getting a new one. To make it clearer, in 15 seconds they need to get a new stack of TFB and then repeat that, hoping their stacks do not fall off before the buff expires. Four or five TFB stacks are generally needed to pull off the Heroic Strike damage you see in the video on a well geared player and because of the changes in 5.1 these stacks while still possible to build, will not be as easy to get as they are now.



Erm, maybe u should have thought of that before giving warriors endless amount of mobility and stuns. They DO have incredible amount of uptime


So this change to Avatar lowers two key issues with Warriors, mobility and burst and the Gag Order change helps with their control. Do not think that these change makes Warriors too controllable or weak in Arena, they will simply no longer be able to turn into an unstoppable wrecking ball and build up TFB stacks then afterwards global a player.


It still amzes me that u made warriors unstoppable wrecking balls in the first place? What were u thinking when designing that? What did u use beta for (as a rogue I wonder even more about that)?
Edited by Sicá on 06/11/2012 18:36 GMT
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