Crowd control is out of control.

how are they failing, the cc part they are 100% right about this.
the burst idd seems a bit retarded and should be pointed out to blizzard, not cc since cc is more then fine.
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90 Human Mage
5920
Well TBH things like shockwave, gag order, rdruid bash, psyfiend, and blood fear are too strong. Fixing those will go a long way. But in the current metagame with high burst damage and high healing, I feel going beyond that is too much. We need instant CC for peels.

But I would like a really extensive discussion about the rules of DR. While this won't affect instant CC, I think one of the most annoying things for a healer, is to be CC'd "forever". So my suggestion is, that disable DR counters running down WHILE CC'd.

Example:
0: Mage sheeps paladin, 8sec CC
8: 5 sec in between
13: Mage sheeps paladin, 4sec CC. DR hasn't been reset (it resets after 15sec)
17: Warlock fears paladin, 8sec CC
25: Warlock fears paladin, 4sec CC
29: Druid cyclones paladin, 6sec CC (or whatever it is)
35: Mage sheeps paladin: 2sec CC. DR hasn't been reset, because the paladin hasn't been 15sec WITHOUT CC.

I.e. keep everything about DR as it is, but disable the DR counters running while CC'd. This will make it harder to stack CC on one target to keep them CC'd forever.

Another option would be to make DR' counters reset after each CC ends. In this case, there would be a guaranteed 15sec time without CC after the opposing team has used up all their DR's. This might be simpler to undrestand, but then I think the 15sec time is too much.
Edited by Vedi on 10/11/2012 11:41 GMT
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90 Human Paladin
14555
Nakatoir, I don't think you understand the point of this thread, it's not about ofcourse you can use your own to stop the CC chain etc..

The thing is, for most classes, those who don't have so much CC and control over the fight such as retribution paladin, it take's 10 times more effort for no reason.

For example I decide to go on a priest in arena, the mage is 20 yard's away and starting to poly, 4 choice's, 1 let the priest ran away and los, second waste my stun so he can just blink right away/get dispelled, third try to somehow get near and yet again let the priest run away and fourth just let him cc me because it's pointless to do the rest as ANYWAY right after he will polymorph me ANYWAY ... which is spammable and that's without even mentioned the cc from the priest or the third class.

Blizzard should simply make a hard cap on the CC duartion of 12 second's so you can't be cced more than 12 second's every 30 second's and solve the whole issuse and yes it's that simple.

Also not enough it's that simple, only specific combo's that rely on 30 second stright cc MIGHT get hurt but yet again, you claim you want skill in this game so the answer is simple, let them have that 30 second's stright CC but on multi target, 12 second's each player, isn't that skill?

And that I tell you from playing 12 season's at 2200+ every single one of them.
Edited by Eliran on 10/11/2012 12:20 GMT
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08/11/2012 15:54Posted by Nakatoir
you can still interrupt CC chains through the use of your own CC, as well as blanket silences
Thanks for taking away blanket from Heroic Throw. /sarcasm

08/11/2012 16:09Posted by Tublat
Those really needs to be removed, they do not promote skillful play
Actually blankets are pretty skillful when you know something instant is coming and you can prevent it.

Also I don't see how blankets are worse than roots against melees or instant casts or master aura casts. Same level of irritation.
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10/11/2012 11:40Posted by Vedi
Well TBH things like shockwave, gag order, rdruid bash, psyfiend, and blood fear are too strong
O'rly? So these are OP but mage CS blanket, dragon breath, instant RoF, DeepFreeze are not? Are you serious? xD
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90 Human Warrior
9000
10/11/2012 12:50Posted by Зесин
Well TBH things like shockwave, gag order, rdruid bash, psyfiend, and blood fear are too strong
O'rly? So these are OP but mage CS blanket, dragon breath, instant RoF, DeepFreeze are not? Are you serious? xD

He plays a mage. He really is serious.

rofl
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90 Human Mage
5920
10/11/2012 12:58Posted by Gadriel
O'rly? So these are OP but mage CS blanket, dragon breath, instant RoF, DeepFreeze are not? Are you serious? xD

He plays a mage. He really is serious.

rofl


Well instant RoF uses Presence of Mind to make RoF instant, so I can't really see how to fix that without taking away Presence of Mind. You know ring of frost has a stupid bug where you cant see the cast bar, right? Thats what should be fixed. And firemages are pretty rare in arena now, so I don't care that much about DB, whereas the specs I referred to are commonplace and cause a lot more concern over CC.

In any case my main point was changing the DR rules to remove "infinite CC chains". Comps that do these chains almost always include mage, so as a matter of fact my main point is about a nerf to comps with mages. Since I'm clearly not being biased, I conclude you didnt even read the post. When a warrior doesn't read posts, I assume they are the mouthbreathing type. See what I did there?
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90 Human Rogue
5350
Funny thing is that even with all the cc mage and priest have atm they are most balanced classes still. Check the top 100 statistics
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4 Troll Shaman
0
U bad mon, l2p. or go die.
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90 Worgen Druid
9745
Well TBH things like shockwave, gag order, rdruid bash, psyfiend, and blood fear are too strong. Fixing those will go a long way. But in the current metagame with high burst damage and high healing, I feel going beyond that is too much. We need instant CC for peels.

But I would like a really extensive discussion about the rules of DR. While this won't affect instant CC, I think one of the most annoying things for a healer, is to be CC'd "forever". So my suggestion is, that disable DR counters running down WHILE CC'd.

Example:
0: Mage sheeps paladin, 8sec CC
8: 5 sec in between
13: Mage sheeps paladin, 4sec CC. DR hasn't been reset (it resets after 15sec)
17: Warlock fears paladin, 8sec CC
25: Warlock fears paladin, 4sec CC
29: Druid cyclones paladin, 6sec CC (or whatever it is)
35: Mage sheeps paladin: 2sec CC. DR hasn't been reset, because the paladin hasn't been 15sec WITHOUT CC.

I.e. keep everything about DR as it is, but disable the DR counters running while CC'd. This will make it harder to stack CC on one target to keep them CC'd forever.

Another option would be to make DR' counters reset after each CC ends. In this case, there would be a guaranteed 15sec time without CC after the opposing team has used up all their DR's. This might be simpler to undrestand, but then I think the 15sec time is too much.


It already works like this.

Besides, DR is an unpredictable !@#$ system.
Edited by Ishaye on 10/11/2012 22:51 GMT
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90 Human Mage
5920

0: Mage sheeps paladin, 8sec CC
8: 5 sec in between
13: Mage sheeps paladin, 4sec CC. DR hasn't been reset (it resets after 15sec)
17: Warlock fears paladin, 8sec CC
25: Warlock fears paladin, 4sec CC
29: Druid cyclones paladin, 6sec CC (or whatever it is)
35: Mage sheeps paladin: 2sec CC. DR hasn't been reset, because the paladin hasn't been 15sec WITHOUT CC.

I.e. keep everything about DR as it is, but disable the DR counters running while CC'd. This will make it harder to stack CC on one target to keep them CC'd forever.


It already works like this.

Besides, DR is an unpredictable !@#$ system.


No, it doesn't. The last sheep would be full length, because neither cyclone or fear are in "the same DR category" as sheep. This means they don't affect the 15sec reset time of DR. This is exactly what I propose to change: DR categories remain as they are, but the DR counters shouldn't RUN down while in CC.
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90 Gnome Warlock
12820
The amount of hate Blood Fear gets is very big considering how few locks there really is. What I want is real dispel protection for affliction. 1 gcd to remove 4sec dots, on an 8sec cd. No wonder most locks going demo and destro.

However, the statistics doesnt normally lie. Doesnt seem blood fear is that huge issue
http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/

For 3s:

warrior 3855 (18%)

paladin 2812 (13%)

druid 2691 (13%)

shaman 2409 (11%)

hunter 2184 (10%)

mage 2121 (10%)

priest 1917 (9%)

warlock 1195 (6%)

dk 1131 (5%)

rogue 456 (2%)

monk 431 (2%)

18% warriors is insane, but blizz seems ok with it. I dont think I have ever seen any numbers close to these since arena was introduced.

So what to get from the numbers? Nothing really more then warriors need a fix. Druids shamans and paladins is where they normally are due to healing.

Warlock an dk needs some small help. Guess warlocks would go up if affliction were more viable. But in the burst now its kinda masochistic. Surviving the stormtroopers the first 3o sec is annoying they say (I dont play at those ratings myself) Together with dispel removing all dots and haunt.

Rogue that I see as the skill class normally is broken. They still got everything from vanilla and not much else. Except some really !@#$ty dmg. Never happened in earlier expansions that i hope for a rogue in the other team.

Monk is no surprise tbh. They didnt make them dk godmode. So will take some time before ppl master them and they get balanced right. Havent even dinged mine yet, but doing pvp as ww is so clunky it makes destro feel smooth. Mistwalker seems ok, but survival seems a bit meh.

Personally half the cc should go. I find myself look back at vanilla with awe. Ppl get bursted as much as now. But atleast cc was a lot less. Harmstring charge stun for warriors. Frostnova and sheep for mages. Well u see where im going. Most ofthe time u got toplay your char.
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90 Worgen Druid
9745


It already works like this.

Besides, DR is an unpredictable !@#$ system.


No, it doesn't. The last sheep would be full length, because neither cyclone or fear are in "the same DR category" as sheep. This means they don't affect the 15sec reset time of DR. This is exactly what I propose to change: DR categories remain as they are, but the DR counters shouldn't RUN down while in CC.


Ahh, I misunderstood you.

Right.

That's a very silly idea but it just might work.

The better option is still to get entirely rid of DR, make CC's the old 10 seconds, remove a ton of them, and make those that were previously spammable have a cooldown - possibly 2 charges with 30 second cooldown (like roll) or something like that.

But... yea, this works, too.

At that point Blizzard is going to have to implement proper DR timers though because between this and the "check for reset every 5 seconds" mechanic it's going to get super messy...
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90 Human Warrior
8845
I agree that the CC is out of control.. Especially fear.. There is no way of breaking it when a warlock is fearing all the time for 7 seconds, or when a mage spams 2 polymorphs right after another, both 7 seconds, because apparently DR decides to be favoriting stupidity.

A proper setup, and you can cc 2v2's for long enough for an auto attack to kill the whole enemy team.. People complaining about warriors healing themselves for 7k every 2nd second, should consider the CC issues as a bigger discussion than that..

And not to mention the big issue with OP CC, they are nerfing the anti-CC from avatar.. so for my class, this means i'm gonna be utter useless in arenas from next patch on.. Unless we see a change to the rather retarded CC..

I know ghostcrawler has Ph.D.. But a brick could figure it out in a more intelligent manner..
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trinket used:

instant fear 7sec
poly 7sec
poly 4 sec
poly 2 sec
cyclone 7sec
cyclone 4sec
cyclone 2sec

12sec breath

repeat

untill trinket is back up

That's some good communication from whichever team you are fighting, pulling off a successful crowd control chain where you effectively shut a single player down for 33 seconds is pretty impressive. Their whole team is wasting a lot of time and effort to keep you in CC like this, your team should try and take advantage of that by putting pressure onto them so that they cannot continue the chain so effectively. Your team could also try interrupting the CC chain through use of stuns, interrupts or even CC of your own.
If a team is so focused on keeping you in such an effective CC chain for so long, then their attention is focused on that and you should take full advantage of this fact. Right now however we are content with how crowd control abilities are working, especially when you consider the trade-offs that are involved in their use such as high costs, cooldowns, cast times as well as the focus and communication that is required to maintain a successful CC chain. A key point to make is that we do not feel diminishing returns have been communicated and explained well enough and this is something that we would like to work on.


Yes soooo much focus, reminds me of when I walk and how difficult it becomes to breathe as I'm so focused on the walking part XDXDXD
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85 Blood Elf Mage
8985
there was a post earlier in the thread, pretty muched sumed up the problem.

all classes have to much, to much health to much damage to much cc to many burst cd's to many buttons to bind.

classes need a trim down.

it's odd i recall one of the things blizzard saying pre mop was that mop would have less spells with the changes to the talent system.

all my characters have more....

players have known for some time that a session of trimming was required on all classes, blizzard knew it too, i guess the current game is the result of not bothering.
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90 Gnome Rogue
14470
The whole blanket vs. interrupt discussion is interesting. I think that blanket silences have a huge potential and I saw top-mages and top-warlocks bring it to use constantly. It's the same with fake-casting - it can be worthwhile but players always faking until the interrupt shows up on the addon tend to get way less throughput than those eating interrupts from time to time. Fake-casting also means in a way silencing yourself for the duration.
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90 Human Priest
11195
08/11/2012 13:36Posted by Daegranos
Right now however we are content with how crowd control abilities are working, especially when you consider the trade-offs that are involved in their use such as high costs, cooldowns, cast times as well as the focus and communication that is required to maintain a successful CC chain.


Blizzard, you're full of it! Why would you reward for example Mages and Shadow Priest with a blanket interrupt/silence?? Mage opens with a Deep Freeze. I'm now kinda forced to trinket it cause the damage will be severe and depending on his partners damage unhealable. I trinket the Deep Freeze and KABOEM..... blanket interrupt (TAKES NO SKILL TO CAST THIS!)! Counter Spell is such a lousy spell, you don't even need to catch me in a cast, IT ALWAYS HITS. You even increased the duration with 1 second compared to Cataclysm. You screwed up PVP this expansion. And for those saying healers are still immortal gods.... L2FP!!! Go do your homework again and listen to your paying customers. I personnally I'm kinda fed up with your statement "We like CC as it is right now". The majority doesn't and we pay for your houses, cars, etc.
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90 Draenei Paladin
8490
Blizz should just borrow the ‘resolve’ type mechanic the principles are:

- Whenever you take a CC (regardless of type), you gain ‘resistance’ to CC which temporarily reduces the duration of any further CC effects
- Resolve builds up faster when the same CC type is used in a chain (e.g. fear spam) which would still therefore reward co-ordination of different CC types. CC includes blanket silences and disarms but not interrupts.
- Resolve decays gradually (whilst not being CC’d) rather than suddenly going from immune back to 100% effect

Some of the advantages I can think of with this approach:
- It cuts across the issue of being ‘CCd for 30 secs’
- Smarter use of CC would be Promoted
- Would hopefully lead to more target switching in PvP rather than the tunnelling which seems to happen a lot at present
- Removes the need to determine viable comps based on what the shared DR categories list tells you (should open more viable comps)
- A lot easier to implement/test than trying to re-balance all of the CCs now in the game
- Doesn’t affect PvE. (NPCs wouldn’t get the resistance)

- Healing might become easier in PvP. Therefore blanket PvP healing throughput may need to be reviewed if this change came in as you could spend more time healing

Also a bit off topic but mana is currently completely irrelevant (except maybe priests) in PvP, would be nice to get the resource battle back somehow.
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90 Human Paladin
9225
08/11/2012 13:03Posted by Lcuz
Youre in a team. If youre team allows CC chains on you for 30 secs staright without interupts, something is wrong with your team.


Well Most of the CC's today are instant cast. matter you hide - Kite - Run one little peaking head out can be 33 sec CC.

i can strongly agree that the Cc is actually out of controll in this game for moment.

i mean everyone has atleast 1-3 Cc spells atleast 1 is instant cast.

As i said. matter ur skilled like hell instant cc's cant be avoided.
Trinket it and get cced again "as healer" your team is dead in 5 sec.

Game ended.

Sure your team should pressure the other team to not be able to CC you but then we go back again to instant CC'S still hard to avoid. / interrupt if nothing to interrupt. instant poly - instant fear - instant cyclone - instant Hoj - instant deepfreeze - instant ring of frost - instant Counterspell - Repeat. i think you can see the point that all that is not avoid able matter your 0 Cr or 2.5k cr / rating.
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