Crowd control is out of control.

08/11/2012 16:11Posted by Jackmaster
And when you say "Counter their CC with your CC" yada, so you want us all to have a Mage, Lock or Druid in our team to be successful?


lets name a list here quickly: war's can use gag order atm to silence any such effects aswell/shockwave/fear/charge/pummel.
monks can simply roll out of range, use leg sweep to interupt, paralyse (the talent of it is highly underrated vs spellcasters since u dont sacrifice getting cc'd/switchd too if u have that range on the spell and u can still los after) , spear hand strike (aint sure if i named everything)
priests can ruin any burst with just psyfiend /silence/disarm/fear

and we still got a lot of classes left which have alot of interuptions aswell for cc chains so my point here is: its not cc thats the problem in this game, its the lack of knowledge from most people, and even when people know they can counter it they still lack mostly the knowledge when is the best way to use it or that u dont even have to prevent it with ur own spells but can simply line of sight it behind a pilar or even range it.
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81 Orc Hunter
1195
These are alternate uses of blanket silences, you mess up your interrupt and go "Oh damn, cannot let them cast that — blanket silence". This is fine, it just means that you wasted your interrupt and made a decision to use the blanket silence as well.


U cannot be serious. Blankets require no skill and aren't used tactfully at all, blanket upon cc upon cc.

Blanket silences are skill-less, because you missed your interrupt but its no problem because you lockdown the player anyways. They're not fine. You should be able to cast after you've juked an interrupt.

And after the blanket silences your opponent might have a stun ready. So no, they're not fine and should be removed, atleast from PvP.
Edited by Tublat on 08/11/2012 16:36 GMT
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Nakatoir -

What blizzard has managed to do is take everything skillful left in the arena and destroy it.
We're left with a situation where everything has so many defensives if you reverted back to previous gameplay where it was both game changing and difficult to land a casted cc on a good healer who knew how to position, then simply nothing would ever die due to the infrequency of said cc landing and the abilities available to compensate when they did.

I also find it amusing that you think setting up cc chains is now "hard"
The very essence of making it a 3 vs 2 with some instant cast CC makes it massively easier to land a follow up.
So landing cc is easier than ever before, follow up cc is easier than ever before and we've switched between pressuring with damage to overwhelm opponents giving you the opportunity to land casted cc and thus force defensives (usually a trinket or the 1-2 defensives abilities available) to what we have now which is using instant cc to counter instant cc and relying on easilly applied MASSIVE cc chains every dr cycle to cycle through the multitude of defensives people have and finally, after maybe 5-6 of these massive cc chains you land a kill.

The best part being most of your major abilities are scripted before the game begins "Hey i need trinket/healing tide for avatar/reck or we're just dead" etc.
You made burst so strong and unstoppable that players can happily solo something (and this is a BIG issue in my eyes) with ZERO help from their partner. There's no thought to using them because each time they'll force the same reaction, and in essence playing vs equally skilled opponents usually ends up with using said cooldowns instantly to get the defensives forced as early as possible.

Now blizzard will do their usual trick of sitting back, waiting for people to "learn the new meta game" and ignoring every bit of feedback the playerbase gives who are in game experiencing these issues RIGHT NOW.

So here's some feedback from a current 2470+ WLS resto shaman, thats rank 3 on our battlegroup so you can correctly assume we've played the very best on our battlegroup:-
Our entire team thinks this new system is a complete joke, i don't enjoy spending half the game sat in cc vs any team with zero hope of stopping it, i hate the fact my positioning means absolutely NOTHING anymore, infact it's got to the stage where i have to position BADLY to stop typhoon flinging me into even worse positions. I also think the new dispel mechanism is ill concieved considering the ease at which it can be abused by any sensible team wih spammable cc. Oh and the offensive dispels are simply out of hand, maybe when they have reasonable drawbacks and can't be spammed for 5-10 mins straight will people think about using them instead of mindlessly dispelling everything.

Our affliction warlock doesn't enjoy being a blood fear bot, he knows it's "cheap" and hates the fact he neither has to cast much or is unable to do so when being tunneled. He also refuses to play demo because in his own words "You don't ever have to cast...ever.... this is soooo stupid"

Our warrior - Hell he's loving randomly globalling people every few games, sadly we as his team mates know nothing skillful has been done to obtain the points he's just given us.

Maybe in 3 months once enough people get bored and unsub you'll realise you should've listened earlier.
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90 Human Paladin
14665
Don't forget though, blanket silences can be also be used tactfully. You can use blanket silences to strategically and pre-emptively shut another player down from using their instant cast spells. As with all crowd control, blanket silences have diminishing returns and we also try to give them healthy cooldowns to mellow them out. If you have some examples of skill-less play with silences, we would be glad to hear more about it.


You're not going to see anyone using a blanket on a Hunter so he can't trap it's not going to happen. The only time Blankets are skillful is when you're against a Paladin for example and you see him running towards your healer to stun him and you blanket him before that. That's about it.

When blankets are skill-less? Every single time you miss a CS on a healer it's a skill-less blanket because you got rewarded for still missing your lockout. An example is when I play my Mage and I'm saying on Skype "Blanketing healer - On cast, lOLs". It happens so often it's unreal, I just there got rewarded for attempting to blanket the healer. Why should that be possible? I tried to miss my CS but managed to hit it by pure luck, it's not fun to be the healer when it happens, I know it happens very often as I play both a Mage and a Paladin and decently high ratings.

It's fun for the person that manages to hit that random CS but not good or fun for the game.

Some crowd controls have cooldowns and on top of that diminishing returns give them a downside which makes it impossible to recklessly spam because you will just burn out the DR's and your opponent will then be immune for a while.


If you're talking about Blood Fear it doesn't matter, Dispel CD is 8 seconds and Blood Fear 10.

It's quite simple, if you're playing a healer in high rated arenas or even low rated once, you're going to understand the frustration of watching your teammate sitting in a Psyfiend fear and knowing there's no point in dispeling it because the same NPC is going to re fear him after.

Or if your team is getting double feared and you're the only one that isn't feared, having to choice "hm which one should I dispel?" it's not fun, it's not tactical, it's just a question off who you're going to dispel, it's not like you're sitting there on Skype or whatever "okey guys who should I dispel? Can anyone of you follow up CC on the opponent healer if I dispel you?" It doesn't happen because there's no time for it.

It's VERY simple, the new system doesn't work with so much AoE CC. You need to cut down on it or revert the change. Give it a double use or something like Clemency gives you double freedoms or so. It can't go on like this because it's just extremely boring to play with.
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Community
08/11/2012 16:21Posted by Kerberusx
Edit: And as Mirion already pointed out, your crappy new dispel system doesn't work because of the halfassed implementation.
Okay, I understand that some of you are not that pleased with the Mists of Pandaria dispel system, that is fine. From what I read in Mírion's post, he does not mind the "think before you dispel" concept. So if you want to dispute that the 8 second cooldown system is not the best for gameplay, list ways in which you would like to see it work instead :)

08/11/2012 16:31Posted by Tublat
Blanket silences are skill-less, because you missed your interrupt but its no problem because you lockdown the player anyways. They're not fine.
And once again, that is a decision that you choose to make. If you mess up an interrupt and make a choice to not let a cast get off then that is your choice, you have simply burnt two cooldowns instead of just one. I already mentioned a couple of ways they can be used with planning and skill, stating that using them after missing an interrupt is skill-less is not entirely true as that is simply an on the spot decision made by a player, these decisions are regularly what decides the skill level of a play.
Edited by Nakatoir on 08/11/2012 17:46 GMT
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90 Pandaren Monk
9275
Nakatoir, just warning you in advance, but your posts WILL be quoted on Arena Junkies and completely taken the piss out of. Simply put, a lot of what you're saying is contradicting with the cold actuality of arena right now. The top players in the world are constantly complaining about the sheer amount of CC that comps like Godcomp have which makes it truly obnoxious to face sometimes.

Your statement that it takes any skill whatsoever and that they're only focusing on CCing and thus does no damage shows a lack of understanding of the core issues that this game has. You have probably never played high rated arena to be able to see it clearly, but there's a very good reason why consensus among gladiator level players is that CC is completely out of control. The fact that Ghostcrawler thinks otherwise and thus every blue is forced to agree with that is cute at best.
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81 Orc Hunter
1195
08/11/2012 16:48Posted by Nakatoir
Okay, I get understand that some of you are not that pleased with the Mists of Pandaria dispel system, that is fine. From what I read in Mírion's post, he does not mind the "think before you dispel" concept. So if you want to dispute that the 8 second cooldown system is not the best for gameplay, list ways in which you would like to see it work instead :)


Remove the cooldown of dispel, bring back trash debuffs/buffs like in WoTLK, and increase the mana cost. Frostbolt now has a ramp-up debuff, you're nerfing mana cost of spellsteal, could have done the same to dispel. WoTLK system was much better.
Wotlk was fast-paced and everyone oomed, so you had to go and drink, noone ooms anymore except disc priests. You had to manage your mana in LK

And once again, that is a decision that you choose to make. If you mess up an interrupt and make a choice to not let a cast get off then that is your choice, you have simply burnt two cooldowns instead of just one. I already mentioned a couple of ways they can be used with planning and skill, stating that using them after missing an interrupt is skill-less is not entirely true as that is simply an on the spot decision made by a player, these decisions are regularly what decides the skill level of a play.


Blankets shouldn't even be in the game, it's an interrupt, not an guaranteed lockout.
Edited by Tublat on 08/11/2012 16:58 GMT
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90 Tauren Druid
16875
There should be 2 diminishing returns for CC. Stun, and non stun. Sheep, sap, cyclone, fear - They should all share the same immunity.
Edited by Peacemoon on 08/11/2012 16:54 GMT
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Nakatoir, just warning you in advance, but your posts WILL be quoted on Arena Junkies and completely taken the piss out of. Simply put, a lot of what you're saying is contradicting with the cold actuality of arena right now. The top players in the world are constantly complaining about the sheer amount of CC that comps like Godcomp have which makes it truly obnoxious to face sometimes.

Your statement that it takes any skill whatsoever and that they're only focusing on CCing and thus does no damage shows a lack of understanding of the core issues that this game has. You have probably never played high rated arena to be able to see it clearly, but there's a very good reason why consensus among gladiator level players is that CC is completely out of control. The fact that Ghostcrawler thinks otherwise and thus every blue is forced to agree with that is cute at best.


i surely have played high rating arenas this season aswell and i do agree actually on nakatoir on most things, most cc can be prevented by just playing it right, and if u put urself into a position that u cant avoid it, its still ur fault and could be prevented by moving the position to somewhere else by knowing that they would come to cc u in the first place.

again lack of knowledge makes people often rage and this seems like a tread to rage about cc so once again lack of knowledge.
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90 Human Paladin
14665
08/11/2012 16:48Posted by Nakatoir
From what I read in Mírion's post, he does not mind the "think before you dispel" concept. So if you want to dispute that the 8 second cooldown system is not the best for gameplay, list ways in which you would like to see it work instead :)


I wouldn't mind if I AoE CC wasn't so out of hand.

As an example.

If my team of happy newbies is playing against a Mage Warrior Shaman team and one of my teammates got sheeped and one nova'd that would be fine because I can dispel the Sheep and Freedom the nova. I don't mind that because I can still get my team out of CC so we can continue playing our characters for a short period of time.

But when you play against a team of SP Mage Shaman and both my teammates just get Feared and I can't dispel my 2nd teammates Fear because of the CD that is not fine. I need to be able to keep my team going offensive, especially with how Bursty the damage is right now. If someone sits a CC you're going to lose ALL pressure you have and probably fall behind and it's a looooooooong way back from that to recover. It just feels like you're not even playing your own character anymore. If you do dispel someone the target will just get sheeped and that person can't play his character again. That's how it feels for me at least, I can't really play the game without a Shadow Priest for defensive dispels or I'm just going to eat CC like it's mcdonalds.

In previous expansions that was fine because if you sat to much CC it was your healers fault for not dispeling it.

That's the whole problem with MoP so far, I like the expansion and I think it's fun to play arenas again but it's extremely hard to control your own character and you can't really play the game when you're in constant CC. This expansion does have the potential to be the best one imo but you need to fix either the CC or the dispel CD needs to go / get changed a lot.

Just seems like it wasn't very thought out in my opinion. Just like with offensive dispels, those if anything needs a CD and defensive doesn't.
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08/11/2012 16:53Posted by Peacemoon
There should be 2 diminishing returns for CC. Stun, and non stun. Sheep, sap, cyclone, fear - They should all share the same immunity.


this would work if u like getting trained 24/7 as a healer tbh and mages can just run freely cause they get cc reduction from mage armor anywho, so ye lets do this and enjoy everyone getting killed by the burst classes.
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90 Gnome Mage
10920
08/11/2012 16:48Posted by Nakatoir
If you mess up an interrupt and make a choice to not let a cast get off then that is your choice, you have simply burnt two cooldowns instead of just one.

He has a billion other small CDs aswell, so often it really doesn't matter that he just used w out of 15 instead of 1 out of 15 CDs to keep you from casting. + whatever his team mates bring.
I don't think the new dispel system has ruined nearly as much (if anything as all), as the overall class changes/talents that Mop brought. The evolution started all the way back in LK though. Druids with knockback, slow, stun, blink. Palas with instant CC chains of 25 seconds. Priests with stealth, etc. Everyone has everything, and that is boring. Do warriors have ANY downside anymore? their mobility is the best in the game now, I think that used to be their downside, without a dispeller by their side they were actually stoppable. Now they have the most OP stun in the game, aoe, SICK low CD, long duration.
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90 Orc Monk
10900
can someone that is godlike skilled tell me how to avoid blood fear followed by pom poly / ring followed up by a ns clone / hex / df / hoj
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81 Orc Hunter
1195
08/11/2012 16:59Posted by Mírion
Just seems like it wasn't very thought out in my opinion. Just like with offensive dispels, those if anything needs a CD and defensive doesn't.


So much this, can't believe you gave defensive dispel a cd and didn't even touch the offensive.
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90 Undead Mage
7600
08/11/2012 17:01Posted by Soku
can someone that is godlike skilled tell me how to avoid blood fear followed by pom poly / ring followed up by a ns clone / hex / df / hoj

You schhhwhwhwt around the corner and never come back.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9275
Nakatoir, just warning you in advance, but your posts WILL be quoted on Arena Junkies and completely taken the piss out of. Simply put, a lot of what you're saying is contradicting with the cold actuality of arena right now. The top players in the world are constantly complaining about the sheer amount of CC that comps like Godcomp have which makes it truly obnoxious to face sometimes.

Your statement that it takes any skill whatsoever and that they're only focusing on CCing and thus does no damage shows a lack of understanding of the core issues that this game has. You have probably never played high rated arena to be able to see it clearly, but there's a very good reason why consensus among gladiator level players is that CC is completely out of control. The fact that Ghostcrawler thinks otherwise and thus every blue is forced to agree with that is cute at best.


i surely have played high rating arenas this season aswell and i do agree actually on nakatoir on most things, most cc can be prevented by just playing it right, and if u put urself into a position that u cant avoid it, its still ur fault and could be prevented by moving the position to somewhere else by knowing that they would come to cc u in the first place.

again lack of knowledge makes people often rage and this seems like a tread to rage about cc so once again lack of knowledge.


You're completely right, my bad. I should had seen that Ring of Frost coming from miles away and rolled out of it, but I'm a scrubnub so I didn't and now I'm sitting in a full ring. But my healer isn't apparently and he's dispelled me, great, I'm back in the game, lol nvm Psychic Scream Poly Poly Poly pala Blind fear nova...

It is CONSENSUS for a reason. Instant, unavoidable and AoE CC simply has no place in this game, and unfortunately, there's way too much of it. From holy paladins keeping you in CC chains for as long as 15 seconds to uncatchable and unkillable resto druids with Symbiosis Block, it's completely out of control.
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87 Night Elf Druid
4715
Nakatoir, just warning you in advance, but your posts WILL be quoted on Arena Junkies and completely taken the piss out of. Simply put, a lot of what you're saying is contradicting with the cold actuality of arena right now. The top players in the world are constantly complaining about the sheer amount of CC that comps like Godcomp have which makes it truly obnoxious to face sometimes.

Your statement that it takes any skill whatsoever and that they're only focusing on CCing and thus does no damage shows a lack of understanding of the core issues that this game has. You have probably never played high rated arena to be able to see it clearly, but there's a very good reason why consensus among gladiator level players is that CC is completely out of control. The fact that Ghostcrawler thinks otherwise and thus every blue is forced to agree with that is cute at best.


i surely have played high rating arenas this season aswell and i do agree actually on nakatoir on most things, most cc can be prevented by just playing it right, and if u put urself into a position that u cant avoid it, its still ur fault and could be prevented by moving the position to somewhere else by knowing that they would come to cc u in the first place.

again lack of knowledge makes people often rage and this seems like a tread to rage about cc so once again lack of knowledge.


Classic, zero-time Gladiator playing Shatterplay and telling others they lack knowledge if they can't handle CC.
Edited by Kerberusx on 08/11/2012 17:07 GMT
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90 Night Elf Priest
10490
I'm not entirely sure that CC is "the problem".
- look at rogues. Crazy CC and they're not in a strong position right now.
- look at disc priest. "Overpowered" psyfiend and still the worst PvP healer.

Imo the issues are more complex. The whole package of mobility, offensive and defensive CDs, melee and ranged CC, silences/interrupts/disarms, immunities, dispels and healing has to be looked at. Some classes have too much of everything right now, some are too one-sided, some have too much synergy with certain classes (symbiosis, another set of CC on different DR-timers etc.).

Hunter/Warrior/Lock/Frostmage-burst, yeah, that's easy to find and easy to fix. CC is harder.
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08/11/2012 17:04Posted by Pathos
You're completely right, my bad. I should had seen that Ring of Frost coming from miles away and rolled out of it, but I'm a scrubnub so I didn't and now I'm sitting in a full ring. But my healer isn't apparently and he's dispelled me, great, I'm back in the game, lol nvm Psychic Scream Poly Poly Poly pala Blind fear nova...


well ye u should have seen that ring coming and if its PoM ring then ye well once in a lifetime (1.5min) and u get dispelled if u werent retarded enough to stack on the start, and u get dispelled and u can then decide to move position since last time i checkd psyfiend fears u away and surely doesnt move in ur face everytime to fear u again, no it stands still so u can try kill it maybe if u have a ranged class with u or just simply los it and then they dont have any AOE cc for the next few min's which should be enough time in arena to set loads of damn pressure/burst. so instead of making dumb responses about cc being OP just really L2P already sicne thats the big issue that started this whole thread in the first place.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9275
08/11/2012 17:09Posted by Spellwoman
You're completely right, my bad. I should had seen that Ring of Frost coming from miles away and rolled out of it, but I'm a scrubnub so I didn't and now I'm sitting in a full ring. But my healer isn't apparently and he's dispelled me, great, I'm back in the game, lol nvm Psychic Scream Poly Poly Poly pala Blind fear nova...


well ye u should have seen that ring coming and if its PoM ring then ye well once in a lifetime (1.5min) and u get dispelled if u werent retarded enough to stack on the start, and u get dispelled and u can then decide to move position since last time i checkd psyfiend fears u away and surely doesnt move in ur face everytime to fear u again, no it stands still so u can try kill it maybe if u have a ranged class with u or just simply los it and then they dont have any AOE cc for the next few min's which should be enough time in arena to set loads of damn pressure/burst. so instead of making dumb responses about cc being OP just really L2P already sicne thats the big issue that started this whole thread in the first place.


I can't even tell if you're trolling anymore, but I'll bite and say that only a mage player could ever possibly consider that what you just said makes any sense at all. Enjoy your free glad this season, you'll need it to prove you're someone when all this broken !@#$ gets fixed. :p
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