Crowd control is out of control.

90 Human Paladin
14665
08/11/2012 17:07Posted by Kerberusx
Classic, zero-time Gladiator playing Shatterplay and telling others they lack knowledge if they can't handle CC.


Was my thought aswell :dDD
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08/11/2012 17:13Posted by Pathos
I can't even tell if you're trolling anymore, but I'll bite and say that only a mage player could ever possibly consider that what you just said makes any sense at all. Enjoy your free glad this season, you'll need it to prove you're someone when all this broken !@#$ gets fixed. :p


ill do that while u learn that ring of frost/poly share dr just like fear and pala blind <3
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Posted by Kerberusx
Classic, zero-time Gladiator playing Shatterplay and telling others they lack knowledge if they can't handle CC.

Was my thought aswell :dDD


srry i didnt get glad playin with my 1800-2k rated friends and didnt play pve or any OP setups but still got 2.4k and killed most r1/glad players, and ye i decided this season to play an somewhat easier setup but hey do u see any other people in our setup on high rating? guess thats just me knowin how to prevent cc properly and u still dont seem to know how to handle it. ps mirion i can recall u playing an easy setup aswell and we beating u fairly simple so wheres ur
high rating this season with an easy comp?

so after this useless crappy opinion about exp mathering too much from previous seasons, lets continue this thread about cc which is still crap imo.
Edited by Spellwoman on 08/11/2012 17:25 GMT
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90 Undead Priest
11115
One of the aspect you could recognize a goold healer was how fast he's able to dispel his teammates. "this is a new meta" gtfo with it and give the old one back.
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90 Orc Monk
10900
duelist is all of sudden r1 quality

HMM

stop defending instant cc already, if u truely are very skilled at this game u wouldnt care anyway.
Edited by Soku on 08/11/2012 17:31 GMT
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1 Undead Mage
0
Just make DR affect all abilities that remove the control of your character.
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Community
08/11/2012 16:49Posted by Pathos
Nakatoir, just warning you in advance, but your posts WILL be quoted on Arena Junkies and completely taken the piss out of.
I am well aware of where my post is going to be quoted, that people may not agree with what I say as well as how much it will be broken down and analysed piece by piece. This does not stop me from posting as I am here to join in on the discussion, spur additional conversation and if my posts bring more intriguing, useful and beneficial feedback in places other than just here on the forums on top of what is already out there, then that's just dandy :)

08/11/2012 16:49Posted by Pathos
Your statement that it takes any skill whatsoever and that they're only focusing on CCing and thus does no damage shows a lack of understanding of the core issues that this game has. You have probably never played high rated arena to be able to see it clearly, but there's a very good reason why consensus among gladiator level players is that CC is completely out of control.
I never said that they were purely focused on their CC and no longer doing damage and/or healing. Their focus has been split especially if they are trying to weave a CC chain, even if it is only by a little, you can use that time to take advantage of the situation. This means that you may be able to counter-CC their team or take other actions to try and put yourself ahead. Understand though, I never said that we are not open to changes to CC, feel free to post your opinions of why you feel there is too much crowd control in the game and how it affects your gameplay. We are always more than happy to hear your opinion on these matters and that is why we read the forums and also discuss it with you.

Just as a little note to finish of this post; please stop with the rating bashing, name calling and flame-baiting. Let's try and keep this thread as constructive as possible.
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duelist is all of sudden r1 quality

HMM

stop defending instant cc already, if u truely are very skilled at this game u wouldnt care anyway


u make it sound like im defending instant cc for my own cause, even tho the easiest way to lock down a mage which i find really annoying ofc, is by using instant cc, and i like i mentioned earlier only class that seems out of proportion with locking someone down is a war atm since they get everything back after using it all, but for the rest everything is just really avoidable, seeing a priest running straight at u from 20 yards = obvious fear inc. (same with lock), only instant cc i note cant be avoided is instant fear from a lock when talented, but then again they have a cd on it so they cant spam it like they used to do, feel tho like they need to make the rng from running on that spell slightly differnt.

but im mainly saying most people here probly dont even know they can silence the trap from a hunter or eat the trap or just simply force the enemies positioning into the worse scenario for them so u can kill them down and get cc on their healer instead when they try to get their instant cc on ur healer, its just people not seeing this.
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90 Tauren Druid
4675
Edit: And as Mirion already pointed out, your crappy new dispel system doesn't work because of the halfassed implementation.
Okay, I get understand that some of you are not that pleased with the Mists of Pandaria dispel system, that is fine. From what I read in Mírion's post, he does not mind the "think before you dispel" concept. So if you want to dispute that the 8 second cooldown system is not the best for gameplay, list ways in which you would like to see it work instead :)


To clarify, it's not as much the cooldown dispel system itself that is at fault, it's the fact that the rest of the game doesn't seem to have been tailored towards it. Hell, you didn't even include Spellsteal to begin with.

Things like a Priest's fear are pretty much guaranteed to relieve pressure when previously you'd have to be sure that trinkets are down or the healer is CC'd himself. As in, setting it up required a lot more attention than it does now. I can sort of handle being feared, using my trinket and being re-feared instantly again when I'm playing Feral - even though it's highly annoying. But I used to make a concious decision to trinket Fear and create that extra pressure. Now I feel like an idiot when I trinket something just to sit in the next instant CC which I simply could not counter. As a healer though, I thought it was even worse. Dispelling my teammates did not feel like a concious decision at all, it felt like a gamble. Sitting on Skype and having two damage dealers shouting "dispel" was not fun, especially if we went to the length of discussing who should get it - by that time, half the CC was over and it had already served its purpose.

Having said that, being able to dispel defensively at all times was actually fairly "strategic" - as long as there was a mana penalty to it. What separated a good healer from a bad one was his ability to land a fast dispel. This obviously no longer applies.

As a little addendum and on a more personal note Nakatoir, many people including myself are tired of trying to be constructive and suggesting changes because it feels like we're being completely ignored. I posted quite a lot on the Druid forums about various topics and at some point I will give up. Creating a 30-page thread and not even getting acknowledged for it is disheartening. Watching one class and two or three setups dominating an entire 9-month season without even the tiniest adjustments being made is extremely frustrating. You will have to accept that people at this point are pissed off with you. Even though we're all happy that you're actually talking to us.
Edited by Kerberusx on 08/11/2012 17:52 GMT
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90 Pandaren Monk
9275
Nakatoir's post


And that's all very appreciated and all, but quite frankly, there is nothing to be 'constructive' about.

CC is over the top. It's hugely obvious to anyone who has played arena at a high level in past seasons and has a measure of comparison. The bigger problems are more apparent than the smaller ones, for instance Ring of Frost, Psyfiend and Blinding Light - however, the core problem is that all this just happened to come with the expansion that introduced an 8 second cooldown on dispel which renders it ten times worse than what it used to be.

You guys have already begun to nerf the big things a bit, but Ghostcrawler's stance remains that CC is fine as it is now, much to high end PvPers' dismay. Godcomp is so very scary to face right now, and the only thing holding them back is the beast that is warriors with all their CDs popped critting someone for 300k with Heroic Strike, and once you fix that, there'll be nothing but an entire season of people sitting in 15 second unavoidable CC chains. :/

It just feels like we're beating a dead horse. Nobody is saying anything that hasn't been said before, yet we're constantly puzzled with how little is done about these issues in the present. It looks like we'll have to wait for an entire season for these issues to even get acknowledged, let alone fixed.
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90 Goblin Shaman
10645
Hi... thought I'd join in...

So, I'm not all that involved in PvP, as I focus mostly on the raiding aspect of the game.
However, I do have a comment or two for this thread.

Anyways, I did quite a bit of Arena PvP (2s, and 3s) during Cataclysm, and I never experienced CC as being something impossible to deal with. I felt that I had plenty of ways of avoiding it, and even when I couldn't avoid it, it seemed managable.

Since the release of MoP, however, I've experienced CC in an entirely different way.
Now, I haven't played all that much PvP in MoP, but from what I have played, I feel that CC is a lot harder to deal with than previously.
I find that once the opponent manages to CC me for the first time, I am basically going to sit in CC for the remainder of the match.
Now, in terms of avoiding / countering CCs, seen from a Resto Shaman's perspective in comparison to Cataclysm; my Wind Shear has a longer cooldown (meaning I cannot interrupt cast time CCs as efficiently as before), and my dispell now has a cooldown (meaning I cannot dispell CCs from my team mates as efficiently as before).
Meanwhile, MoP brought an increased number of CCs (or CC-like abilities), so it's really no wonder that this subject has been taken up for discussion.
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90 Undead Priest
7690
08/11/2012 17:34Posted by Nakatoir
Nakatoir, just warning you in advance, but your posts WILL be quoted on Arena Junkies and completely taken the piss out of.
I am well aware of where my post is going to be quoted, that people may not agree with what I say as well as how much it will be broken down and analysed piece by piece. This does not stop me from posting as I am here to join in on the discussion, spur additional conversation and if my posts bring more intriguing, useful and beneficial feedback in places other than just here on the forums on top of what is already out there, then that's just dandy :)

Your statement that it takes any skill whatsoever and that they're only focusing on CCing and thus does no damage shows a lack of understanding of the core issues that this game has. You have probably never played high rated arena to be able to see it clearly, but there's a very good reason why consensus among gladiator level players is that CC is completely out of control.
I never said that they were purely focused on their CC and no longer doing damage and/or healing. Their focus has been split especially if they are trying to weave a CC chain, even if it is only by a little, you can use that time to take advantage of the situation. This means that you may be able to counter-CC their team or take other actions to try and put yourself ahead. Understand though, I never said that we are not open to changes to CC, feel free to post your opinions of why you feel there is too much crowd control in the game and how it affects your gameplay. We are always more than happy to hear your opinion on these matters and that is why we read the forums and also discuss it with you.

Just as a little note to finish of this post; please stop with the rating bashing, name calling and flame-baiting. Let's try and keep this thread as constructive as possible.


The 8 second dispel cooldown ruins the game and lowers the skill cap of healing classes. Most cc are instant and aoe, therefore unavoidable. If you factor in the fact that the amount of cc has been increased this expansion, healers have no way of predicting what is going to happen next if they dispelled one cc(and in most cases let the other partner sit the cc).
Also note that majority of dispellable cc spells are either on short cooldown or no cooldown, in a 3v3 environment, the situation becomes:
a) People dispel one cc, they can't dispel a damaging debuff such as frost bomb or 2nd partner gets cc'd into oblivion.
b) Even though the people can line in cc spells in many different orders, the healer who knows exactly what's going to happen can not react. ex : dispel frost nova from your melee partner, your team gets stuck in pom+ring of frost.

I just would like to know if Blizzard is considering reverting the dispel system back to the way it was on Cata?

Thanks in advance if you decide to answer.
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1 Human Hunter
0
instant fear 7sec
poly 7sec
poly 4 sec
poly 2 sec
cyclone 7sec
cyclone 4sec
cyclone 2sec


That kind of CC has always been in the game.

The problem is dispel is now on a 8 second CD (!@#$ knows why)
It's much easier to land the CC, e.g psyfiend, all mages have PoM, NS is on a 1 minute cooldown
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Too much instant CC yes, but too many immunities to make it any different at the moment.

TBH, I can never really get a CC when it matters in most games(berserker rage/recklessness/anti magic shell/lichborne/cloak of shadows/fear ward/tremor totem). And when it matters the most is when offensive cooldowns are up. If everyone is immune when they have their offensive cooldowns up, there's not much point trying to land a defensive CC at all.

I reckon most top spell cleave players will tell you that its not all about the cc, its all about the damage.
And Nakatoir is right in saying that it DOES take a lot of focus out of your offensive play (because of a variety of factors, not just timing a cast, think of LoS, position of opponents etc) when you're trying to land the perfect cc chain. Which is why what i said in the sentence just above is true.
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90 Human Paladin
14665
08/11/2012 18:10Posted by Mýst
I reckon most top spell cleave players will tell you that its not all about the cc, its all about the damage.


it's all about damage whenever you can land a full instant CC.

For example Mage & SP comps you play like this.

Deep DPS, silence healer & random CC on the last person at the same time.

It doesn't take a genius to find out it's the way to play it.
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Too much instant CC yes, but too many immunities to make it any different at the moment.

TBH, I can never really get a CC when it matters in most games(berserker rage/recklessness/anti magic shell/lichborne/cloak of shadows/fear ward/tremor totem). And when it matters the most is when offensive cooldowns are up. If everyone is immune when they have their offensive cooldowns up, there's not much point trying to land a defensive CC at all.

I reckon most top spell cleave players will tell you that its not all about the cc, its all about the damage.
And Nakatoir is right in saying that it DOES take a lot of focus out of your offensive play (because of a variety of factors, not just timing a cast, think of LoS, position of opponents etc) when you're trying to land the perfect cc chain. Which is why what i said in the sentence just above is true.


all true imo, its more about burst atm anywho so nerfing cc would only make bursting classes burst even more. but i guess this isnt the right thread to be argueing about burst.
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it's all about damage whenever you can land a full instant CC.

For example Mage & SP comps you play like this.

Deep DPS, silence healer & random CC on the last person at the same time.

It doesn't take a genius to find out it's the way to play it.


most reliable burst for sp/mage/healer setups would be to use deep offensive soo would be unwise to use it defensively all the time , or when used defensive u miss a big part in the offensive play, so then if u know this, it wont be that simple to just use 3 buttons for full control especially not when ur playin vs meleecleaves nowadays who just prevent cc by sitting on the target that does most cc most of the game.
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90 Human Paladin
14665
it's all about damage whenever you can land a full instant CC.

For example Mage & SP comps you play like this.

Deep DPS, silence healer & random CC on the last person at the same time.

It doesn't take a genius to find out it's the way to play it.


most reliable burst for sp/mage/healer setups would be to use deep offensive soo would be unwise to use it defensively all the time , or when used defensive u miss a big part in the offensive play, so then if u know this, it wont be that simple to just use 3 buttons for full control especially not when ur playin vs meleecleaves nowadays who just prevent cc by sitting on the target that does most cc most of the game.


I'm obviously talking about going for the DPS and silence the healer for CC..
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71 Blood Elf Priest
13860
How about this : If you've been cc'd for 5 sec, you become immune to cc's for 5 sec.
Seems pretty fair to me.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10720
I think the reason so many players seem to think there's too much cc in the game is simply a cause of how the game has developed. In TBC, you had to use multiple players to pull off a cc chain, very few classes could keep someone CCed a longer duration without outside help. The way to get a kill was to set up the teams CC to score a kill.

In today's arena (if we don't count the "lol lets train this guy with 5 warriors untill he dies" mentality) the CC trains are a lot easier to pull off.

On my paladin for example, I can easily chain Rep -> Hoj -> aoe blind -> Rep for a total of 23 seconds of cc (8+5+6+4? My math might be a bit off). Likewise, on my mage, I can pull off a chain of cc like Polymorph -> Deep Freeze -> Ring of Frost -> Polymorph (add a dragon's breath if fire) for a 25 sec chain (8+5+8+4?). Now this is obviously in a 'perfect scenario', which to be fair, happens quite often in low-rated play (1500-2000).

The argument that 'x or y is a zero time gladiator' is rather flawed. I don't know how Blizzard wants to balance PvP. Is it something that is supposed to be competitive? If so, get feedback from multiglad players. However, if it is something that is supposed to be enjoyable for everyone, the gladiator argument blows. There is an enormous difference in games at 1300, 1600 and 2200 rating, it's totally different games.

TLDR: It's easier to setup CC-chains now, which I think is the reason so many are complaining about it.
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