That is the problem, wasting my best defensive cooldown to prevent a single CC is just stupid. Just accept the fact that theres too many CCs in the game atm.
That's a fair answer (no sarcasm intended)
The problem however lies in the fact that in my opinion the blanket healing nerf was to much considering the state damage is in.
As it stands currently unless I can cast regrowths into my warlock with full HoTs up I cannot top (and can only just draw even) with 2 melee connecting with him. 2 casters is a different matter, put simply it's much worse! Someone can just instantly die in a deep if I'm CDed on dispel.
What I'm getting at is the pressure is just insane and this has started the whole arms race between damage and healers.
Currently damage is winning simply on the amount of instant CCs in the game.
If I ask santa for one thing it will simply be to remove blanket silence from the game completely (with the exception of priests and Dks). Mages and Warlocks don't need it and it simply promotes horrible game play. 'O missed the CS nvm will just blanket for 4 SECONDS! anyway.' Nothing rewarding or skillful about that style of game play.
Other instant CCs that need to be addressed would be:
Predators Swiftness cyclone (simply far to many procs in it's current format)
PoM Ring of Frost (very easy to fix, simply don't allow PoM to work with ring)
Disorienting Roar (slightly less of an issue than blinding light because of duration)
Blinding Light (Paladins simply did not need this with the addition of Repentance to holy spec)
Blood Fear (10% Hp is not nearly enough of a sacrifice neither is the CD as they can still AoE fear if you go for a kill when you know BF is CDed)
While I'm at it melee have to many CC breakers that need to be looked at (avatar is a great start so my complements on that). It promotes CD stacking and the current state of the game that we see at higher ratings which is to simply force a healer to use his trinket then kill one of the DPS in not a CC chain but normally just 1 full duration CC.
Your game as it stands is very broken (I've played resto druid since TBC and have attained gladiator twice so have some exp). Both damage and the amount of CC needs to be drastically reduced to bring it into line. Certainly this might be hard to do and yes it might upset some people but the way I see it it's the only way to claw back this season.
Of course all of this is nullified if you intended for this season to be played like WoTLK which is 2-3 minute games and people winning on crits and RNG instead of skill?
That's a really poor example as Cyclone is one of the few CCs which is hard casted. It's very easy to avoid that, simply get one of your partners to interrupt him. If you're struggling to do that you've positioned badly.
Rarely can I take that much time out of a game to chain that much CC with the current state of damage. Your problem is more of a team synergy problem than a game problem.
Edited by Tublat on 09/11/12 00:37 (GMT)
Counterspell is one cooldown, if you seriously think blanket silences promote skillful play then you're clueless. No high rated players thinks it promotes skillful play.
Strangulate & Silence are fine, because that's how they work, they don't lockout your school. Spell lock & Counterspell are supposed to lockout the school you're casting, but if you miss it acts like a strang/silence, that's wrong and not skillful nor a good mechanic.
But it's no decision at all, and about the "decides the skill level of a play." most of these was removed with cataclysm.
Such as predicting an incomming stun, then pop IBF, and not just pop IBF when stunned.
Vanishing inbetween dots, or vanishing a deathcoil.
Distracting a enemy mage whos casting frostbolt on you, making him turn around.
Mechanics like these are what promotes skillful play, blanket silences do not.
Edited by Raspala on 09/11/12 07:10 (GMT)
Instant fear full
mortal coil 3 secs
blanket silence full
fear off dr rinse and repeat
Where is that breath ? I think you just havent played your character for a minute
oh wait i forgot your teammates are also sitting in frostnovas deepfreeze ring of frost and random cc which isnt on you at a point and while 3rd person takes dmg from instant fof procs or super fast casts with icy veins up
2 min pvp trinket was introduced in tbc with dimishing returns of 30 ish seconds while people had 2-3 times less cc then they got now and guess what that cc actually took some skill and coordination to land
Those days Mage had castable sheep and improved cs and nothing else.
now they got instant sheep or rof , deepfreeze and altertime to reset cds
All of this could maybe be fine if people stop dying 100-0 in single deepfreeze
Im not complaining to mage alone its just cc that can hold you for 20-30 or twice more seconds while people still die in 5 seconds window.
Healers on other hand heal too much in general and got too much no brain instant heals which heal for far too much for being instant ,fast cast and/or low mana costy or some of them got too much cooldowns in general to compensate. This game has been too much into wrong direction that you cant actually fix it now at once in my opinion but something needs to be done.
Making more cc's share dr is maybe one option fear and poly definitely being on same dr. Other option is to increase diminishing returns to 40-50 seconds. 3rd option which I woluld preffer is to ban retarded instant cc from casters and make them castable. Expecially deepfreeze (which isnt even on gcd now thanks to major glyph),instant clones, instant fears and blanket silences on short dr.
What this means?
This means losing cc as healer would mean something.
Faking that cs would mean something.
And it also means you wont get those 1 minutes cc chains if you are descent. They can eventyally get you cc'd but it will be far more difficult to land it.
Whatever being done or implemented would help here. But godcomps being able to cc 1 or 2 targets at same time while tunneling 3rd is just plain stupid.
If it was entirely up to me 3v3 would be Melle/caster/healer and what i would do to force people into those comps is
Kill all mellecleaves with melle being unable to cc aside long cd instants which could start cc chain or capitalise other team mistakes resulting in a kill, melle should bring raw constant dmg and pressure to comp, Dk in its current state is perfect example of how all melle should be
What this means? This means it will need some coordination between your melle and caster to land a cc chain ( example : after your caster locked their healer of school, asphyxiate him then grip him on open for your caster/healer to molest him with atleast 10-15 secs of additional cc resulting in a kill or trading major cooldowns).
Kill godcomps with casters being unable to cc someone forever opening with instants , kill their burst dmg they should be there for cc , peels and seting up kills and yes nothing should die in 1 deepfreeze to 2 casters ever.
Kill double healer comps with healers actually being able to go oom and being able to die.
Well atleast thats just my thoughts on it. If someone has other soultion to this problem I would like to hear it.
Posted by Nakatoir
i've played against top players this season, and simply to give u some tips on what to do heres a quick list:
if u have troubles outhealing someone cause of a blanket cs, u can easily prevent this by seeing the switches inc on their positioning mostly and the way they move towards someone, so u can prevent ur partners from dieing in a cs by simply switching hots off as a druid before they switch or at the moment they switch, as for people dieing in deeps, seems to me most people havent figured out yet where the whole dmge from a mage comes from and the fact u can easily prevent this with just dispelling it, i know ur partners will be cc'd longer since u will have to set ur focus more on dispelling frost bomb more then just keeping them up but any mage will have insane trouble setting up anything at all burst wise without frost bomb, and ofc a mage can prevent any trouble with this by just cc'ing the healer but this cc is mostly predictable and also avoidable.
my opinion about removing blanket interupts:
i believe this game would be probly going to be a meleecleave party on the ladders without having blanket cs up on some times, healers would just simply dispell anything a caster would do when they're not cc'd and coming back to the sentence when being trained by a meleecleave it aint the easiest thing to set up cc on a healer, and perhaps my partners can help into cc'ing for example, but last time i checkd most healers have a counter cd or even mobility (druids/rshams) to outplay/outrun other cc chains like fear or when playing with a priest getting mass dispelld or when playing with a mage/druid/sham being able to get dispelled from hex if this would get on u.
the state of cc as it is is really fine, if u would say the burst is way too much atm tho i would agree but tbh u dont need to sit in a full cc chain to get killed within a burst all it takes for higher rated players this season is just 1 cc before the switch and then just kill someone.
Maybe rather than complaining that you get CCed too much you should start thiinking about what to do to avoid it. Sure there is a lot of instant CC right now, but that doesn't mean you can't predict it and counter it.
this above is 100% true, last season resto druids werent really viable like most people said, but people like minpojke still played this spec and got r1 doing so, some classes might be high skill cap to play on a season doesnt mean u should ask for buff/nerfs, it actually req u to think for a sec to make new tacts even sometimes and then win on newly learned skills.
if people say that they play this game casual and dont want to spend time learning the new mechanics in a new season/expansion, then i really do wonder in what ways u care enough to find it important to complain about a class being inbalanced when u didnt even took the time learning how to outplay their mechanics instead. it just feels like a reversed world when u dont do anything and "want it to be fit into ur shoe" while there are probly thousands of other casual players out there with their own class who have a differnt point of view on this and all are right tbh if u wouldnt play this game in any way serious enough to learn it.
but for those who play this game serious or just bother enough to learn the mechanics of the game once they should have no problem this season with cc chains really and if they do sorry to say they simply do something wrong which has to looked into again.
played with alot of healers this season on one of my alts that complained about getting cc'd after explaining them how to avoid it and to even make it so good that the enemy team would have to run all across the map sometimes getting cc on him to even be able to burst at all they would be in a wrong position and easily bursted down without a healer and without ccíng their healer like it. and just like mentioned above by draedith these are things u can do to prevent it.
but imo its time people start looking at their mistakes before just saying : game is bull!@#$ lets go forums complain about it.
and if u feel like ur in an endless cc u cant do anything about, well mostly the case is it aint the time u actually get cc'd that made it imposible after to avoid the cc chain or the first cc chain, its the moment u position urself wrong or didnt see it coming or ur partners are too far away so u had to run in and got cc'd even for instant cc's this is the case , it really all comes down to if u know or not whats going on around u. and thats something u can see back in any gameplay from a multiglad player they know most of the time whats going on and prevent/abuse things like this.
so please consider everything ask everything to people perhaps with higher exp and ask for differnt opinions, and all that before just heading to the forums and claiming cc needs to be reduced again, since this doesnt only change the game completely it will probly make it even worse. since for each nerf/buff u make in a class/basic aspect of the game another class would provide way too much from this which wouldnt make it fun again for other classes and hence keeps the forum posts rolling in and making it useless to play this game at all.
Mage/Lock/Rdruid vs Warr/Feral/Hpala
Mage: Pom sheep pally, resheep, deep, blanket silence
Druid: Bash, clone warrior, reclone, root
Swap clones on pally and sheep on warrior
Blood fear pally into a full sheep into a full clone into a..you get the point
Edited by Makowdo on 09/11/12 10:17 (GMT)
i just dislike the instant fear
I agree that there is to many CC's right now but I dont think instant fear is one of them, because it sets fear on a cooldown + you sacrifice 10% Health. I think that instant fear isn't the problem here. Fear has been around since vanilla so warlock didn't get new CC's but instead they can use fear which suits them best
just an example :p
+ if you list deep freeze + all other spells of druid and mage, you wont breathe indeed xD
Edited by Blaqdynamite on 09/11/12 10:50 (GMT)
i guess one havent seen the ridicous amount of dmg incoming after 1 single cc. everytime im being cc'd im so afraid that i'll lose someone by some crazy powerstacking ability which dumps so much nuclear waste on a player. im not saying some classes are OP but some classes have an easy way to dump down a whole lot of dmg in a few seconds, the time my brain sends a message to my hand to hit the panic button im already dead.
anyways back to cc, i agree cc is a bit too much atm. doesnt matter what pvp scene you're playing it's out of control, im even thinking about removing that trinket because most of the time it doesnt even work. remove a bunch of ccs and you've got yourself another new and fresh looking cc. it's crazy.. Crazy.. CRAZY I TELL YA
edit: btw, update that trinket that it wont only break cc but also give cc immunity for 7 seconds after being broken
Edited by Ewyn on 09/11/12 11:09 (GMT)
The reason why people are complaining about the current state of CC in the game is not actually the amount of CC. It's true what you say about countering the opposite team's CC but there are quite a few abilities which cause the CC to be completely unavoidable. And that's the key word.
The major concern is Blood Fear. Instant fear with a ridiculous cost of 10% health is completely unavoidable and it really promotes unskillful play. Having a focus fear macro lets the warlock spam the button between his casts. This requires nothing special to execute, and you can't avoid it since eventually you will have to come to heal from your shelter. Usually the best way is to give the CCer a lot of pressure thus forcing him defensive and preventing him from using his CC on the healer. Now that fear is instant, it doesn't matter how much you try to lock him down.
Mages. Deep Freeze and Ring of Frost don't DR with each other, once again. They were put on a same DR for a reason, unavoidable CC. Now for some reson it was reverted. As a result it lets mages use an instant RoF into an instant DF and even get a Frost Bomb between those. This will result unavoidable burst which can easily be 200-300k without the mage having to cast anything else but that Frost Bomb. So not only their CC is unavoidable but the burst also. I rarely see a mage using Polymorph because they don't need to. RoF has a stupidly low CD and the upcoming nerf is such a joke.
The amount of long instant CCs is overwhelming. Every class seems to have everything. Please don't let the game inflate. Let the skill matter, nerf the amount of instants. Eveything is fine as long as you have a chance to avoid it, that you really can do something about it. Play better to start with.
E: And yes, I do have mage and warlock alts. I know what I'm talking about.
To Mr Nakatoir
i believe cc and dispels are fine, but some teams have just too much of it and it is all on different dr which is cosign all those problematical long never ending cc
take look at teams like - resto druid / frost mage / shadow priest or lock
you will get instantly cloned before you can see druid, you will get instantly at least one player in ring and often two before you could see mage
and you can los and keep distant from shadow priest and yet he will get his pet to you and fear it with it
How can you fix it? All cc on same dr, it would be helpful to remove all instant cc as well and blanket silences as well, but you already said it is ok to you so how about - ALL CC ON SAME DR
Now im not thinking for pvp here, but more raiding. It would be nice now that dispell has a cd, that it wouldn't be wasted if 2 people dispell the same target. Have it reset the cd if it didn't manage to dispell anything