Is it time for DPS to stop actually healing

90 Gnome Warlock
5380
Solution to avoid nerfing laser chickens, reta.dins and ele's into the ground could be to make this nerf only affect heals directed at allies, if possible. This way they could still heal themselves but no longer be a reliable healer for the team
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90 Human Paladin
16190
15/11/2012 11:41Posted by Gadriel
yeah that 40% damage reduction surely isnt a defensive mechanism, nor is hand of protection or bubble ofcourse


40% spell dmg, not all dmg.

HoP and Bubble cant be used at the same time.

So in the end, after Bubble we have 100% nothing left to fight vs teams that tunnel vision.

15/11/2012 11:44Posted by Joleh
make him roll a cute panda :)


I wish :(

A tip for you dude...


Sorry if I dont take PvP tips from 1.5 rated Rets, im sure ul understand why.

15/11/2012 13:57Posted by Nakatoir
I will edit my first post to specify Retribution Paladins for you. :)


Thanks, I appreciate it, made me feel a whole lot better.

15/11/2012 13:57Posted by Nakatoir
It is also not entirely true that healing is the only defensive ability that you have


I am sure I dont have to tell you... or, maybe I do, but a 5min Bubble and some Hand spells that generally serve as support spells, and mobility spells do not increase my chance to stay alive, or at least Freedom will not help me too much with this much CC going around. U know what helps me to stay alive after Bubble? Healing, and that generally does not always help as well since it is easy to counter. U know whats not easy to counter? a blink vanish, die by the sword, spell reflect, high mobility (Warrior style), last stand, the old SS we had in Cata.

I am amazed that you found Ret to be worthy of nerfing, plx do tell me, as I am sure u know, how many high rated teams (Over 2.4) have a Ret in them? Do you need me to tell you what ppl say when a Ret is looking for a RBG or Arena team? they dont care if ur r1 Glad, why in Gods name would they bring u? A Warrior can do 2 times your job, and if that fails, well, there is always a chance he will just have to global someone, but hey! nvm, lets nerf the Ret again.

I would love if you could possible tell me, what exactly did Ret get this expansion? I mean, we did not get any better at CC, our healing if anything is weaker and we lose more time healing since it does not crit on low hp so we cant spend more time doing dmg. We dont rly do any better burst then we use to, tho I am perfectly fine w/ that, and on top, our sustained dmg got weaker. Ohh right, im sorry, we generate HP faster, thank you very very much, that was very useful, especially since our heals are going to sux and TV hits like a little girl, so I am sure I will have a ton of use for the fast stacking HP.

p.s. Almost forgot, even tho ur not giving some realistic answers (I understand why), I do appreciate you answering some of my questions of late.
Edited by Triumvir on 15/11/2012 14:52 GMT
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90 Orc Death Knight
10170
I hope you do realize that you cripple elemental shamans even further in arena. The healing (which is not really OP compared to abilities like second wind for example) is a key element in the ele defence.

First you nerf ancestral swiftness (can be used defensively for an instant hex, earthquake, heal, ...), then you nerf the ability to cast a totem while in a blanket silence, and on top of that the healing output will be reduced. This for the spec that is already one of the - if not the - most squishy ones.

It's exactly the same story as in cata, nerf upon nerf in the first patches because resto is OP. Nerfing mechanics that were key in ele gameplay. And that for a spec that is already hardly viable in arena.

I really hope you finally start to take into account that resto nerfs are affecting ele shamans.
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20 Troll Druid
4595
15/11/2012 14:49Posted by Xazar
Solution to avoid nerfing laser chickens, reta.dins and ele's into the ground could be to make this nerf only affect heals directed at allies, if possible. This way they could still heal themselves but no longer be a reliable healer for the team
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100 Human Paladin
9350
The only reason for playing ret as of now is probably the effect PvP power has on the healing, now that next patch it will be '' depending on spec, it will work '', no doubt ret is going to get abolished with this nerf along with other Hybrids. ( i.e ele shaman for instance).

I'd Expect there to be a compensation for this, but knowing Blizzard logic and their absoloute love for Ret, the chances are minimal as always.
Edited by Xavieric on 15/11/2012 14:57 GMT
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1 Orc Hunter
0
15/11/2012 14:49Posted by Xazar
Solution to avoid nerfing laser chickens, reta.dins and ele's into the ground could be to make this nerf only affect heals directed at allies, if possible. This way they could still heal themselves but no longer be a reliable healer for the team


That would be good ...
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8615
I was referring to Retribution Paladins in my post specifically and as they have the ability to assist their entire team with healing on-demand through the use of their abilities, they are able to off-heal. I will edit my first post to specify Retribution Paladins for you. :)

It is also not entirely true that healing is the only defensive ability that you have, Paladins also have as I am sure your aware, Divine Shield, Divine Protection, Hand of Protection, Lay on hands and also while weaker if this change occurs, heals. There are other abilities in the Pally arsenal that can be used defensively as well, so stating that heals is the only way a Paladin has to protect themselves and others is not entirely true. Do remember that you would still have your heals, while weaker they could still help in keeping both you and your team alive.

Understand that this is also not a definite change, it is simply something that we are considering to deal with the high healing numbers that are seen from some off-spec healers. We greatly welcome your feedback and thoughts on this, so please continue to provide it.


LoH in Arena? Bubble is so overrated nowadays, due to the simple fact that 90% of arena teams consist of at least a Warrior/Priest (Spriest in most cases). Our utility is a joke against teams with decent game awareness. Sacrifice can easily be purged, same goes for Freedom and BoP.

Divine Protection is a joke compared to Barkskin for example. If I don't activate it preemptively I'm stuck in a Deep Freeze without anything if my trinket is on CD and I'm gonna get bursted from 100% to 30%.

All in all playing Ret ain't fun these days. Tossing out a 3xSelfless Healer FoL is kind of fun, but if these changes make it live I don't even want to think of how easy a frickin KFC/Godcomp can just tunnel me with their crazy burst when I have even less survivability than nowadays.

Bottom line is: If Rets don't get anything cool in exchange for their weaker heals or a buff in general, who'll continue playing Ret? I won't, because I'm so sick of being outgunned by a Warrior in every single aspect.
Edited by Convicted on 15/11/2012 15:00 GMT
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Community
I hope this is just a bad joke. Divine Protection, 20% less damage on a 60sec cooldon can hardly be called a defensive mechanism. Divine shield is a good ability, but 5 min cooldown? c'mon. You can't use Lay on Hands in the arena, nor can you use Hand of protection if you used Divine Shield.

So basically you say that we have a nice array of defensive spells in the arena: 8 sec immunity on 5 min CD (instantly removable by Priests, Druids, Warriors), and 20% less damage on an 1 min CD. WoW. You are a PvP hero.
I am not commenting on how great, useful or even terrible certain defensive abilities are, I am simply stating that there are additional defensive abilities available other than healing. Lay on Hands was more referring to the array of defensive abilities that are available, not that it is usable in arena specifically. I did also state that there are abilities that I have not yet mentioned, such as defensive CC as well as escape abilities that can help you get away, like Hand of Freedom and the first tier talent.

15/11/2012 14:21Posted by Thrasius
And we have 20-25k healings after the patch goes live.
Woah ...wait, what? This is in what patch notes now?
As I already said, this is a change we are considering and is not in any way definite or final. So continue to give your feedback on off-spec healers and possible changes, we are listening to it :)
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100 Tauren Shaman
17660
15/11/2012 10:55Posted by Nakatoir
Laser Turkeys


This made my day
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90 Orc Warlock
5630
You have a Father (Elemental Shaman) doing 33mph in a 30 zone, because his wife is pregnant and he's rushing to the hospital.

You have a boy racer (Shadow Priest) who is drunk doing 65mph in a 30 zone. Therefore the police (Blizzard) say we're putting both the Father and the boy racer in jail for the same period of time.
Edited by Gulsane on 15/11/2012 15:03 GMT
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1 Orc Hunter
0

Bottom line is: If Rets don't get anything cool in exchange for their weaker heals or a buff in general, who'll continue playing Ret? I won't, because I'm so sick of being outgunned by a Warrior in every single aspect.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
2705

Bottom line is: If Rets don't get anything cool in exchange for their weaker heals or a buff in general, who'll continue playing Ret? I won't, because I'm so sick of being outgunned by a Warrior in every single aspect.


How about you man up?

We had to deal with being the worst class in the game for a year, you're not even the worst class and it's been like a month and you're acting like the world ended.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11955
15/11/2012 14:59Posted by Nakatoir
As I already said, this is a change we are considering and is not in any way definite or final. So continue to give your feedback on off-spec healers and possible changes, we are listening to it :)


Edit: For the love of god Nakatoir please read this.

Ret off healing isn't out of hand like the other classes you mentioned, we can get, while hard-casting, 2 FoL's off before going completely OOM? The only time FoL heals for a lot is with 3 stacks of selfless healer, and within 8 seconds of killing somebody - how often?

If we use holy power to heal ourselves, which really isn't for that much, then we lose the next 5-10 seconds of being able to deal remotely any damage.

You guys must be able to see that our sustained damage isn't that great, so we are like 50% damage and 50% healing (wild example here), shadow priests and boomkins are 100% damage and 50% healing. See my point? We need what little healing we have now just to break even.
Edited by Kolori on 15/11/2012 15:15 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
16365
15/11/2012 14:49Posted by Xazar
Solution to avoid nerfing laser chickens, reta.dins and ele's into the ground could be to make this nerf only affect heals directed at allies, if possible. This way they could still heal themselves but no longer be a reliable healer for the team

I like this idea. As far as I know, enhancement shamans and retardings rely heavily on healing themselves to survive in PvP. And compared to, for example, warlocks' current selfhealing, I don't think hybrid selfhealing is imbalanced.
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1 Orc Hunter
0
...wait, what? This is in what patch notes now?
As I already said, this is a change we are considering and is not in any way definite or final. So continue to give your feedback on off-spec healers and possible changes, we are listening to it :)


Well our heal will not heal much more than that ..

So its almost the same like in cata, while at the same time warrior will regen 100 HP in 10 sec while having 25% damage reducion all the time ?! Pathetic ...

It really gives us a sense of progress ! -.-

Just give ret a 25-30% buff to selfhealing or old sacred shield, at least not to die 4 sec in shockwave after buble get ST !


How about you man up?


How about you stop troling every post in this forum FOTM scum ?
Edited by Ytht on 15/11/2012 15:22 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9615
Damage from healers has been a little too strong, especially with cooldowns up. This change will help that.

Spriest healing is out of control, anytime with spriest/healer/dps is almost like playing a double healer team. This should be what the change is primarily for but I dont think it will do as well as they hope.

I can see where people might think rets can keep up their whole team, with cooldowns (wings/HA/guardian) it is possible, but its limited to that 20-30 second window, thats it. And if your using your offensive cooldowns to defend like that, in this meta game at least, you've already lost. Especially considering what others have said, ret sustained is pretty poor, if you've used offensive cooldowns to keep alive, its going to be a while before your team gets a kill (jk warrior one shots for you).

I personally would say that I haven't seen an ele, moonkin, enhance keep up their whole team, only a spriest. That being said, I dont think I have seen an ele, moonkin or enhance without a spriest or warrior either lol.

I'm not sure that a slight nerf to an OP spec, while nerfing UP or 'balanced' specs is justified, there must be some other way to handle healers damage and spriest OP healing??
Its like saying the solution to warriors damage (which by the way, unless tfb nerf goes live you haven't changed it yet..) is to nerf weapon damage on pvp weapons (indirectly nerfing ret and dks)?


I am sure I dont have to tell you... or, maybe I do, but a 5min Bubble and some Hand spells that generally serve as support spells, and mobility spells do not increase my chance to stay alive, or at least Freedom will not help me too much with this much CC going around. U know what helps me to stay alive after Bubble? Healing, and that generally does not always help as well since it is easy to counter. U know whats not easy to counter? a blink vanish, die by the sword, spell reflect, high mobility (Warrior style), last stand, the old SS we had in Cata.

I am amazed that you found Ret to be worthy of nerfing, plx do tell me, as I am sure u know, how many high rated teams (Over 2.4) have a Ret in them? Do you need me to tell you what ppl say when a Ret is looking for a RBG or Arena team? they dont care if ur r1 Glad, why in Gods name would they bring u? A Warrior can do 2 times your job, and if that fails, well, there is always a chance he will just have to global someone, but hey! nvm, lets nerf the Ret again.

I would love if you could possible tell me, what exactly did Ret get this expansion? I mean, we did not get any better at CC, our healing if anything is weaker and we lose more time healing since it does not crit on low hp so we cant spend more time doing dmg. We dont rly do any better burst then we use to, tho I am perfectly fine w/ that, and on top, our sustained dmg got weaker. Ohh right, im sorry, we generate HP faster, thank you very very much, that was very useful, especially since our heals are going to sux and TV hits like a little girl, so I am sure I will have a ton of use for the fast stacking HP.

p.s. Almost forgot, even tho ur not giving some realistic answers (I understand why), I do appreciate you answering some of my questions of late.


This pretty much covers a lot of ret problems. I like the list the blue post made, what was it? Bubble, HoP, DP and LoH? LoH in patch 5.1 can't even be used in RBGs, so thats one less reason to bring a ret to a rbg now. Just what they needed. They were already too viable in RBGs. Edit: I understand why this change was added, LoH for holy was a brilliant cooldown. This is one of the major problems that ret has. It shares too much CC, mobility and defensive cooldowns with holy. For ret to have decent CC, mobility and defensive cooldowns, it just means that holy has OP cc, mobility and defensive cooldowns. What gets changed? 'Holy' gets nerfed and ret is forgotten. This new talent system, for paladins at least, is where they get the majority / half of their mobility and CC spells which both holy and ret have to choose between. Its a nice design for 'pures' but its a very troublesome for hybrids. That being said druids talent system seems to be very good in doing different things depending on spec. How much of that is seen for paladins? 0...unless you count "If you target an enemy it does damage and aoe healing, if you target ally it does healing and aoe damage"...

Blizzard wants us to believe that they balance around 3v3 and RBGs. 3s balance is probably the worst its ever been, its not one spec destroying it (rogues/ s5 dks etc) its a handful, warriors/mages/spriest/resto druids, its easy just from seeing the ladders that 3v3 arena is not balanced in the slightest. Is RBGs any better? No. Some specs are completely un-viable, flag carriers are generally prot warriors (prot paladin would never be considered) and dot/caster cleave setups have been dominating since RBGs were first introduced.

The problems being 'addressed' now were problems that existed on the beta back in June. That is the biggest concern for me, patch 5.1 seems to do very little for the major problems in pvp at the moment, CC and burst. CC isn't even considered a problem by blizzard and considering patch 5.1 will be out soon means its taken them almost 6 months to even attempt fixing warriors, spriest, mages and (the recently fixed) BM hunters. I couldn't believe when the season started and blue posts were saying "the arena season has just started and we are looking into the imbalances"...they were the same imbalances that existed on beta....
Edited by Ladepkcab on 15/11/2012 15:30 GMT
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90 Draenei Shaman
13965
At least warriors seemed pretty viable in cata
Didnt see that much enhance in action in arena...
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100 Dwarf Shaman
19075
tbh no ones off healing is out of hand, it's just that spriest can solo cc an entire team or one person that long that he's able to get those casts off.

spriest should never got the amount of control that mages and locks have.
Edited by Magmathighs on 15/11/2012 15:32 GMT
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90 Human Paladin
16190
Warrs r op, Hunts are op, Mages and Demo Locks are OP, SP are op, along with most of the healers... but hey! I have a solution! lets nerf Ret Paladins, that should rly fix everything, I mean sure, sure, they are a bit under the radar, but who rly cares? the ppl want a hanging so lets go for the usual victim!

Can I work for Blizzard now plx? I am thinking the same as all of u, see?
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90 Human Paladin
14665
15/11/2012 15:21Posted by Mythique
Didnt see that much enhance in action in arena...


Yet one qualified to the big Blizzcon tournament =(

Just because a spec isn't play a lot it doesn't mean it's not viable. Enh was generally lacking synergy with other classes and the class it had synergy with was another shaman spec(resto) and resto shamans always had synergy with Warlocks.
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