Is it time for DPS to stop actually healing

90 Gnome Warlock
5380
You are getting very annoying, Triumvur , posting the same whine everytime
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90 Human Paladin
16190
15/11/2012 15:35Posted by Xazar
You are getting very annoying, Triumvur , posting the same whine everytime


No one is making you read it, I am not posting it for you anyways.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9615
I hope this is just a bad joke. Divine Protection, 20% less damage on a 60sec cooldon can hardly be called a defensive mechanism. Divine shield is a good ability, but 5 min cooldown? c'mon. You can't use Lay on Hands in the arena, nor can you use Hand of protection if you used Divine Shield.

So basically you say that we have a nice array of defensive spells in the arena: 8 sec immunity on 5 min CD (instantly removable by Priests, Druids, Warriors), and 20% less damage on an 1 min CD. WoW. You are a PvP hero.
I am not commenting on how great, useful or even terrible certain defensive abilities are, I am simply stating that there are additional defensive abilities available other than healing. Lay on Hands was more referring to the array of defensive abilities that are available, not that it is usable in arena specifically. I did also state that there are abilities that I have not yet mentioned, such as defensive CC as well as escape abilities that can help you get away, like Hand of Freedom and the first tier talent.


I am a little confused about why your posting what certain defensive abilities are available to us. No offence, but I'm pretty sure the person playing the class knows these. All its has done is created arguments now. Given that mostly everything you listed has been in the game since 'vanilla', the paladin community has had very similar arguments over and over again, specifically on why these 'defensive' cooldowns are bad, though made a lot worse now than before TBC with the introduction of spellsteal and other easier/cheaper offensive dispels (purge x2 and icy touch glyph).

I think we should stick to the facts;
Will the proposed off-healing change hurt rets (and other specs), whether rets have other defensive abilites or not? Yes.
Are rets dominating 3v3 or RBGs in the ladders to justify this nerf? No.
To semi-quote GC - "We shouldn't have to compensate you for a fix, off healing is too strong". Well...given how poor some hybrids are doing at the moment compared to warriors/spriests/mage/resto druids, it seems very harsh doesn't it?

And we have 20-25k healings after the patch goes live.
Woah ...wait, what? This is in what patch notes now?
As I already said, this is a change we are considering and is not in any way definite or final. So continue to give your feedback on off-spec healers and possible changes, we are listening to it :)


It doesn't need to say it in the patch notes. Its live on the PTR, or at least has been in one of the builds. If we only discuss what's been in the patch notes this whole process of balancing would take even longer...and its already been at least 6 months. I do not accept "arena season only started 6 weeks ago" response, these problems existed on the beta and the feedback was...well...I hate to say it but ignored? What else would you call it? I understand the focus may not of been on PvP balance back then, but the problems now are practically identical to the problems back then and the feedback was never used...so...the word ignored fits pretty well :S
Edited by Ladepkcab on 15/11/2012 15:45 GMT
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100 Undead Priest
16185
15/11/2012 09:22Posted by Aethariüs
Right. Not meant to be a QQ post about my class and spec (disc) but i feel so mad when i see spriest healing more than me in 2s.


Did you account for Void Shift?

If I, as Shadow, void shift on someone who's low HP while I'm full HP, it will account for ~200-300k healing.
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90 Orc Warrior
9805
This is all wrong.
The healing problem in this game at the moment is not hybrid classes that can heal in dps spec.
Once you have a dps giving healing support your team is fukd anyway and you're losing.

Self healing is alright at the moment because it somehow balances out in some cases the retarded damage that flies around.

I don't see rets healing too much, because how often do you even see them sitting there dropping all their dps spamming holy light? They have some ok healing that they can't abuse provided by holy power but that also means they will drop their dps, yes?

The real problem is healing specs. You might wanna take a look at resto druids being able to kill rogues on their own, and retarded !@#$ like that.

Also this thread is about 2v2 as original poster mentioned, but of course we get a blue reply saying

15/11/2012 10:55Posted by Nakatoir
We completely agree that it is very frustrating for dedicated healers to find that off-spec healing is actually quite competitive with their own.


So you're basically saying you are gonna nerf offheals to make main healing more appealing in 2v2?
Would you take an offspec healer in 3v3? Or would you find that even viable? lol

Btw, in 2v2 I think I can outheal any healer and their mothers depending on how long the game lasts.

This thread is full of nonsense.
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90 Human Death Knight
12690
It could be worse for rets, you could be a DK and die easily with no CC.
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90 Human Paladin
13675
I hope this is just a bad joke. Divine Protection, 20% less damage on a 60sec cooldon can hardly be called a defensive mechanism. Divine shield is a good ability, but 5 min cooldown? c'mon. You can't use Lay on Hands in the arena, nor can you use Hand of protection if you used Divine Shield.

So basically you say that we have a nice array of defensive spells in the arena: 8 sec immunity on 5 min CD (instantly removable by Priests, Druids, Warriors), and 20% less damage on an 1 min CD. WoW. You are a PvP hero.
I am not commenting on how great, useful or even terrible certain defensive abilities are, I am simply stating that there are additional defensive abilities available other than healing. Lay on Hands was more referring to the array of defensive abilities that are available, not that it is usable in arena specifically. I did also state that there are abilities that I have not yet mentioned, such as defensive CC as well as escape abilities that can help you get away, like Hand of Freedom and the first tier talent.

15/11/2012 14:21Posted by Thrasius
And we have 20-25k healings after the patch goes live.
Woah ...wait, what? This is in what patch notes now?
As I already said, this is a change we are considering and is not in any way definite or final. So continue to give your feedback on off-spec healers and possible changes, we are listening to it :)


Please, do not implement this change to ret, and possibly other melee hybrids like enhancement. Our tools, both offensive and defensive are not nearly enough to compensate to the hit to our healing.

We are already sub-par and struggling - please don't completely cripple us.

If this change goes live we will need a mechanics rework for PvP because our outdated mechanics only function (and not very well) because they have the healing to subsidise their effectiveness.

Please think it through - this may be the nail in the coffin.
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90 Worgen Druid
9745
they already said they are nerfing it.
Indeed we did. We completely agree that it is very frustrating for dedicated healers to find that off-spec healing is actually quite competitive with their own. Off-spec healers such as Shadow, Elemental, Retribution Paladins and Laser Turkeys :p are meant to be able to output some healing - which is one of their benefits - but they shouldn't be able to replace a dedicated healer. The plan we have right now is to make PvP power only enhance either your damage or healing depending on the spec that you have chosen.

Check out the blog by Ghostcrawler on Mists of Pandaria PvP here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/6415071


I'm glad this is being done - although I hope that the removal of PvP power +healing also gets rid of the PvP healing blanket nerf for the affected specs. Otherwise I fear that it would be over the top.

I want to stress though that PvP Power healing is a huge mistake. You've probably seen me around on the forums saying this, but this mechanic either has to be countered by continuously growing blanket nerfs (now specifically to healers) or it has to go. Like I've so often said:

As stats grow:
Damage and health grows in roughly 1:1 for everyone
Healing and health grows in roughly 1:1 for everyone
PvP Power damage and PvP Resilience grows to counter each other roughly 1:1 (Keeping effective HP at ~140% of real HP)
PvP Power +healing just simply scales out of control. There is nothing to counter it.

This makes it extremely difficult to out-DPS a healer even while training and CC'ing him, causing you to have to add huge CC chains - but unfortunately also causing infinitely large effective mana pools because they spend less than they need!

Not to mention the fact that having blanket nerfs in one side of the game and doing completely different numbers when you're just healing players depending on where you are and what the person you're healing is doing is really confusing - probably even for the programmers who coded it.

On a more class-balance related note I am extremely concerned about a few of the class' abilities to deal with casters being severely punished. Ret and feral in particular could turn out to be a complete nightmare. Feral already is a complete nightmare against casters, there is pretty much no way what-so-ever to defeat a Warlock team unless it's destruction, and even then it's extremely difficult.

I think you have to look over your design of how hybrids heal themselves again. Healing should not be a reward for doing damage - it's simply too punishing against extremely good kiters (i.e. ranged) and too rewarding against melee. And this change makes this problem very, very visible.
Edited by Ishaye on 15/11/2012 15:50 GMT
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90 Human Paladin
16190
I am shouting mainly for Ret, but I do hope the rest dont get me wrong, Enha, Feral, WW and Ret do not deserve this nerf, as our healing is not even close to bring OP, how so? due to our small mana pools u dont see us healing raids.

Hybrid casters on the other hand dont have the mana limitation.
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90 Undead Priest
12270
My post was mainly referred to shadow priests tbh...
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1 Orc Hunter
0
15/11/2012 15:53Posted by Aethariüs
My post was mainly referred to shadow priests tbh...


Yes but Retribution will suffer the most because of this, blizzard know that and they DONT care !
Edited by Ytht on 15/11/2012 15:56 GMT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17540
I must say that I completely agree with Triumvir on this one, only hybrids with high mana pools should get their heals nerfed (sp/ele/boom). Proper nerf would probably be "Mana cost of all healing spells is increased by 100% (while using dps spec)" in my opinion.
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90 Human Paladin
16190
15/11/2012 15:59Posted by Søuldrinkah
I must say that I completely agree with Triumvir on this one, only hybrids with high mana pools should get their heals nerfed (sp/ele/boom). Proper nerf would probably be "Mana cost of all healing spells is increased by 100% (while using dps spec)" in my opinion.
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100 Pandaren Shaman
18155
so is it time for hybrid healing to be nerfed to the ground?
Thanks.

15/11/2012 15:53Posted by Aethariüs
My post was mainly referred to shadow priests tbh...


If you used spriest where i bolded the text, a blue never would have replied.
don't worry
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90 Human Priest
9525
15/11/2012 10:55Posted by Nakatoir
The plan we have right now is to make PvP power only enhance either your damage or healing depending on the spec that you have chosen

Which will result in hybrids gemming for intellect, instead of pvp-power.
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90 Human Paladin
9205
15/11/2012 14:59Posted by Nakatoir
As I already said, this is a change we are considering and is not in any way definite or final. So continue to give your feedback on off-spec healers and possible changes, we are listening to it :)


Ok. Here is my feedback: The performance of retribution in the arena is below average ATM. If you nerf ANYTHING about the class, including healing power, you are just messing with us for no reason. Why ignore a specc completeley? Ret is fun to play since MoP, but then again it needs some serious number-tuning.
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3 Goblin Hunter
0
with the amount of damage flying around, think a blanket nerf is the wrong idea, as people have mentioned... feral/enhance/ww/ret need their heals

why not just look at the problem specs
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36 Human Rogue
7600
I hope this won't make hybrid healing completely useless.
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