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besides we still have not moved beyond the basic unfairness of not being interacted with,
The WoW developers rarely post directly to the forums. Yes, it does happen, but it's not something that US players expect regularly.
Just like the US players—and anyone else for that matter—you are completely free to talk to WoW's Lead System Designer, Ghostcrawler, on Twitter. Give your feedback to him directly or ask questions if you wish, you couldn't ask for a more direct line than that:
besides we still have not moved beyond the basic unfairness of not being interacted with,
Don't suppose you have his phone number?? I want to see how he answers his phone! Does he say "yo ghost here sup"
Because as I stated in one of my earlier posts, it interferes with us giving feedback and discussion. If there's an interesting discussion on the US forums, I cannot get involved in it. I can only hope someone makes the point I wanted to make.
An example was a thread on the US forums regarding Mage glyphs. I actually tried making a copy of it here where it got almost no response. How does that help me discuss things and come up with constructive feedback for you? It doesn't. All it does is make me frustrated at being shoved to the side for seemingly no reason.
The whole purpose of a discussion is to discuss issues and bounce ideas off each other, and right now there is a giant barrier for EU players in doing just that. All I know is if I were really serious about it, I'd go elsewhere where you're not roadblocking me.
I'm not saying you shouldn't have local CMs and local forums for the parts where it is needed. But we're all playing the same game, so what purpose is served by having local forums for global issues like general gameplay discussions? Aside from segregating us and making us feel like second class citizens, that is?
I believe you guys when you say you read stuff and give feedback. But what I cannot be sure about is you actually understanding the concerns and reporting them accurately, because I've seen CRZ concerns about gathering and economies be dramatically misconstrued into something like (if you'll excuse the paraphrasing) "you can't level gathering professions extremely easily now, too bad". And even if you did, as I said, it hampers discussion because a weekly report does not get discussed and fed off other players.
Edited by Ulsaki on 15/11/2012 18:14 GMT
besides we still have not moved beyond the basic unfairness of not being interacted with,
I did and he replied. He replied rudely, but he did reply.
Is Tigole on Twitter?
I miss Tigole :(
Agreed there is room for regional forum about EU concern, but except some corner case, US players and EU players have basically the same issues with the game, afterall we all play the same game. There's a big redundancy between posts made on US and EU,
Futhermore, there has been some really interesting posts on US forum where we sadly couldn't participate like this one during the beta : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5889309137
There's also a ton of theorycrafter in EU (and around the world) and asking someone to post your idea on US forum because that's where devs will answer is pretty annoying.
Basically, i would really love to share a great part of the forum with US, with maybe a small space region specific where we could concentrate the concerns of EU region.
Rarely is not the same thing as never with is the case in our case,
comparing the beta forums we had a Single post in 6 months a single thread in the US forums had maybe a hundred most from GC
1 (not a dev) against (a very underestimated samle) 100 by a devs
Hm, in what universe does that even remotely come close enough that we should think its fair ?
hint you do know you admitted we were being discriminated? you covered it with saying its minor and rare that it happens but i am not sure in what universe i am supposed to be happy i am only being discriminated a little.
btw we argue the EU forums are bad, so linking me a alternative way to the forums of solving my problem doesnt really improve your point of the Eu forums being a good idea ("why not have them") and is not everything i say here being forwarded to GC as you have previously, Many times, assured us? (or anyone else even though i can rightly complain that getting my input to GC is better than any Dev Given the fact he is lead Systems Designer)
Agreed 100% with this. Especially with class forums it seems quite redundant to have 2 separate ones, when the discussions/issues/concerns are of the same subjects. I know there are a few discussions on US side I would have liked to join on Warrior section, but I couldn't because I am an EU player, and trying to start the same discussion here just doesn't cut it, there is simply too little activity compared to US side.
Playing along the idea of Halda, maybe having general melting pools for topics that concern the game and such (Class forums, Professions, UI & Macros and so forth), and then have separate EU and US sections that include Realm Forums for each side, and other things that affect only that region. This could be achieved the same way you guys have set up the forums right now, where you can click a header and it hides/shows subforums that belong to that header. How does that sound?
We know the core concerns, we really do. Replies such as the one you mentioned above are responses to specific issues rather than the situation as a whole. Without getting drawn off-topic, we are fully aware of the main issues you all talk about. When we respond with points that counter certain concerns, we're not dismissing those concerns at all, we're just trying to explain why a feature is the way it is or how a design change came about. This is all we can do until we have any further news on a subject from the developers, and US blue posters are in exactly the same position.
Please don't assume that we're not passing on your exact thoughts and feelings on things just because we don't always appear to share your opinions.
I would also have liked to give feedback on the US "dailies" thread.
Here are my questions that have not been answered anywhere that I can see:
- Why was Shado Pan and August Celestials linked to Golden Lotus (revered)? I have no idea why this was done as it makes the grind harder and less optional.
- Why specifically were enchanting recipes put on Shado Pan & August Celestials when almost all other profession recipes (apart from speciality items like big tailoring bag and jc mount) were put on Golden Lotus? Why do enchanters have to grind Golden Lotus, PLUS Shado Pan, PLUS August Celestials? It feels very unbalanced.
- Where will new valour point items be in future patches? Will they still be faction bound so there will be no option to spend future valour points in the MoP expansion unless you do dailies?
Extra Feedback - because valour points items are only obtainable from dailies factions this has had the knock on effect that for a casual player, who only plays a few times a week and doesn't do dailies each time, is struggling to access the latest LFR with ilvl requirement 470 (even after buying crafted epics).
There is much more people posting in US forums than on EU, so there are more Blue replies.
I sometimes post suggestions to improve the game on the forums. None of my topics had a blue tag, but some of them went popular (top 10) and the feature I suggested was finally implemented in the game.
The community team read all the feedback posts from the forums. If you have lots of topics with people asking Blizzard to punish wintrade or implement cross-realm grouping via BattleTag, the Blues won't reply to all of them, but be sure they'll tell the dev team about it.
Edited by Lenwë on 15/11/2012 18:18 GMT
I appreciate the acknowledgement here, so thank you for that. For future reference though, such responses can give the impression that a concern is being misunderstood or strawmanned, which is an unfortunate side-effect of using forums. In a face to face conversation it would be very easy to clarify things.
Still, I don't want to drag this off the topic of allowing us all to post on certain forums like Gameplay discussion.
The EU forums do get less posts, but I haven't seen anything to make me believe there's a large population disparity between EU realms and the US. The number of servers is about the same. On a really huge issue like the RealID fiasco there were very large responses on both forums.
What I do believe however is that a lot of EU posters don't bother at all, or go elsewhere to post because of this existing barrier in place and the feeling of being a second class citizen here. I know I would probably discuss things far more on a unified forum.
Just though i would say well done for putting your noggin above the parapet, and getting actively involved in the customers thread.
I'd like to go in here and pose a question that I've always wanted to be answered.
When you blues say you "pass along the feedback" it's extremely vague what that actually means, and I'd like a clarification.
To those of us who are above the age of 18 (28 here) and/or are not complete idiots (this involves the vast majority of all the players in here) there are certain topics of feedback that is actually useful and has a point to it, and then there are those uninformed and idiotic attempts at feedback. What I'd like to know is wich type of feedback you pass along to the developers - is it the feedback that you yourselves (and I do count you to the "over 18, and not idiots" portion) find to be useful and have a point to it, or is it ALL feedback?
Let me just take a couple of recent examples, and as I've mained this character since the original release, I'll use Shaman-related topics:
The Shaman forum and the PTR forum, both EU and US, is currently blowing up with posts of Shaman players that feel like your developers are idiots for trying to solve an issue with restoration by effectively killing off both Enhance/Elemental for good. Neutering them to the point of complete uselessness.
The feedback there is intelligent, thought-through, and very valid - not only to Shamans (let's just agree that Shamans is plural instead of "Shaman" being both singular and plural, it just looks weird) but to all players that read about this brutally extreme nerf that was snuck in under our noses.
Then there are that other type of feedback, coming from some level 58 Shaman player, fired on by other "obviously inexperienced" players (if I may be so bold) that keeps making threads a couple of times a month that they want Shaman to be tanks or wield 2-handed weapons because they want to giggle at high numbers. Feedback that doesn't relate to the current class but rather some sort of wishlist that doesn't help a class in current need of other changes.
In short, do you send both those types of feedback to the developers, or do you choose the topic relevant to the class in it's current state? Great ideas appear from time to time of course wich should be passed on, and the question is if you choose and pass along ideas that you yourselves, with knowledge at hand, know would be an actual contender - or do you just pass everything on?
Some clarification is wanted, if you please.
When you consider the fact that your feedback is passed on to the developers (as we continually assure you it is), along with them reading it for themselves (see the earlier link to Ghostcrawler's tweet), why not have separate forums for European players? It allows us to focus on European concerns, alongside the global ones, ensuring local issues don't get pushed down the list of topics.
This reason is frigteningly stupid actually. I have to assume you don't even believe in what you're saying. This isn't an accusation of you not doing your job properly though - all I'm saying is that this reason makes no sense. You know, and we know, and you know that we know it is because of investors who don't understand the global gaming market and legacy regional release on discs crap.
Just to be absolutely clear: We are playing THE SAME BLOODY GAME. Have you noticed that? I bet you have.
The set of "regional issues" is a tiny, tiny fraction of the global issues. Overall, World of Warcraft servers actually run quite well and that is the only thing different to us compared to the other regions, as well as some local laws getting in the way every once in a while for special services.
As far as discussing things about an individual battlegroup or realm well... there are subforums for that. You'd just have twice as many subforums, but that doesn't matter because most of them are hidden anyway unless you have a character in them.
Of course, for SOME there is a language barrier, but again... the Spanish could talk to the Mexicans and the Brazilians, there is a french minority in Canada and almost everyone can speak English anyway. The language barrier may be a reason to have separate forums, but it is not a reason to exclude - and you recognize that given that Russians, Germans, etc. can post here.
Edited by Ishaye on 15/11/2012 20:42 GMT
I generally don't understand why WoW is still separated into regions nowadays. Apart from being able to discuss things on other forums I would also like to play with friends from the US or other regions, without having to buy another account.
Most games allow this, but in WoW people are chained to their specific regions. It seems actually ironic how the so-called "Global Play" was introduced as a great feature in Diablo III. It should be standard to be able to play and interact freely with anyone in the world, many people have friends outside of their own country/region.
Given that Blizzard is a US company, it's only natural that most of the "action" takes place in their native forums. While the game is successful in many parts of the world, and every customer is very valued I assume, it feels as if everyone but US accounts are locked out of the main discussions.
I would post this on the US forums in the recently opened feedback thread (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7006898525) but - as you may know - I can't.
I think this is the thread on EU forums that is closest to the other one, so I will post it here.
What I would find really awesome is an indirect response to our concerns. Recently I have seen more and more blue posts telling the community that the concerns will be discussed with the developers on the next meeting or something like that.
That's nice and at least we know what you as community managers do with our concerns. But we don't know anything about the thoughts of the developers regarding those topics. All we get from time to time is an answer like "The developers are aware of that issue." and that's kinda frustrating.
An appropriate answer for issues of the community includes possible strategies for resolving those issues not just [exaggerated] "We know it sucks." or even "It doesn't suck so hard if you don't look too closely." and a hint in some patch notes 2 months later.
Maybe that is the problem many people have and why they think they are not heard by blizzard.
Now I'm confused. Were the beta forums shared for US and EU? As in, both posted in the same forum?
My confusion is partly because Maievs posts seemed to imply they were not shared.
Also, my point was the servers, not the forums.
That is, it might be the servers that affect why the forums are separated.
Or it might just be a relic from WoW's start. I don't know which.
Further, plenty of people run international sites despite operating in different countries. Microsoft is a good example, with all Xbox Live customers able to post on the same forum despite operating in many different jurisdictions including many in the EU. Yet another case to back up how you're making up nonsensical and non-existent laws.
I freely admit I don't understand how the international trade laws and business laws operate.
Even the parts I've read didn't appear to make much sense most of the time. :P
Unless something has changed though, internet companies are required to follow the national laws in the country the servers hosting their site is located.
This was quite the issue back in... the late 90's early 00's I think, because many piracy sites set up shop in countries that had very loose regulations about things like copyrights and were even more lax about enforcing them.
There's also the issue or patents or censorship, the legislation for which is different in many countries.
To take an oft-cited example, germany cracks down hard on blood and violence but is pretty easy about nudity, while the US are the complete opposite.
(And the australian government is just evil when it comes to games. I feel for the aussies.)
Granted, WoW isn't exactly an extreme game in either of those categories, but there might still have been laws in place regarding the servers that affected why the forums were split.
I will state for the record that I'm not claiming this was what happened, since you were so quick to claim I made up laws, but it's something I can see might have been an issue.
Please also note the liberal use of the word 'might', not 'this is why the forums are separate'.
Also, I don't know if the EU forums are hosted on the EU servers (as I assume the US forums are hosted on the US servers), but if they are then the servers' location might have been a factor in why the forums are separate.
As you entirely correctly say, many international businesses have forums and online feedback tools allowing people from all over the world to post on them freely, and I don't see the situation being any different for Blizzard.
Unless there was some regulation related to the location of the physical servers that affected the forums by proxy.
Or possibly something censorship related to the game clients making Blizzard wanting to keep the forums separate. Could have gone something like:
"Ok, the different censorship laws in the various EU countries means we have to change the game client a bit. Better give them a separate forum so we can address any issues separately. Means we can also give them their own CM's which will have working hours when the europeans are awake rather than having our CM's posting replies when they are asleep."
Or, also a distinct possibility, it could be a relic of WoW's early days where they set things up after seeing how things grow and if it looked like it was needed.
I wasn't around in classic so I have no idea if the EU forums launched on the same date as the US forums did or if they were opened later.
I do think that is WoW was launched today the US and EU forums wouldn't be separate though. But hey, I could be wrong about that too, who knows? :)
So the forums are for the players...
...but the seperation is so you can keep focus on regional concerns? The way you read GCs tweet shows pretty well the change in actual meaning when a mediator comes in. GC said "Our community teams make sure the feedback gets across language barriers to us."
You post that as "developers reads the EU-forums". I'm not saying you are better or worse than the average poster, I'm just showing an example of how the wording can (accidently) change when re-written. Or at least be understood differently.
And most of us players read several different fan-sites, that gather the essences of all the blue posts - so "important announcements and blogs" are clearly not the concern for non-US forum-posters. But you are just trying to make up reasons for the seperation. 99/100 "exciting" and evolving threads* that contains blue input are located on the US forums. That is a fact. What you are doing is "forcing" (yeye, "forcing" is overused these daily days) non-US players to create seperate threads in their respective regions instead of adding to an already thriving discussion.
Regional community-teams might relay the essence of such a thread to the "evil HQ", but that is far from the same as those people actually reading that thread themselves.
*Personally I've played this game since beta and followed various blue-trackers along the way. I can probably count my replies in blue EU-threads on one hand, whereas I've seen the "You need a char to post here"-sign maybe ten times as much. (My eagerness to post in a thread often overrule the small voice in the back of my head screaming "you can't post there, so don't even try...").
I obviously understand the necessity when talking about non-english forums - clearly some threads/posts needs translation - but the EU-forums are English just like the US. Are you indirectly advising us all to make US-trial-accounts, just so we can troll the US-forums instead of using our actual b.net accounts?
Edited by Whitelock on 15/11/2012 22:46 GMT
If I recall correctly, it was possible under the old forum tech to allow EU players to post on the US forums because that's how it was done for betas (because previously all beta forums were subforums of the US forums). It wasn't possible under the new tech.
Right there an EU player get the impression that the US devs simply don't care about interacting with EU players because it wasn't deemed worth the time to make it possible under any circumstance.
The question isn't "why should EU players be able to post on US forums", the question is "why aren't EU players able to post on US forums".
Blizzard has repeatedly stated that the people who post on forums are a fraction of the whole playerbase, and it stands to reason that even if it were possible it'd only be a minority of EU players who would bother posting on US forums, so surely forum traffic can't be the issue.
Language issues can't be it either because even if some misguided individual would go spam in Russian or whatever over there, there's forum rules to cover that. Most people who'd bother would be able and willing to post in English from the start.
CM assurances that EU players' concerns are heard are irrelevant because there isn't and has never been any proof. Devs have never posted here; devs have (as far as I can recall) never posted on the (under the old forum tech where they wouldn't need separate accounts since those forums were US subforums) EU beta forums (actually they did post a server downtime announcement on the WotLK beta EU subforums once by mistake - that thread was deleted, then reposted on US beta subforums and was only reposted by an EU CM half a day later).
I distinctly recall a EU CM commenting that US devs have accounts that work on EU forums (as in, "blue post accounts" in their name) during the WotLK beta. If EU feedback is as valued as we're told it is, why don't they post here? If it's a case of too many forums, then why can't we post there?
TL;DR - if we can't post on the same forums devs are actively posting on, EU players have no reason to believe their concerns are heard.
Just to be clear, I think the CMs are doing a good job at managing the EU forums (granted, that is, well, their job). I just have no faith in the purported truth that EU players' feedback is given as much time as the feedback on US forums by the people who are actually developing the game.
I miss Wryxian.
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