Make TBC harder! - Found a solution

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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
18235
They need to fix current content (sup vizier randomness, bloodlust dissappearing if more than 1 person uses it at once, spirit kings order, one of the two healers able to be transformed on amber-shaper in p3, etc) before doing anything to old content.
Also, new talents, new scaling, obviously it's gonna be !@#$tons easier. They don't need to spend any time sorting old raids that 99.9999% of the population won't ever see at appropiate level/gear.
85 Blood Elf Mage
7190
27/11/2012 20:51Posted by Draconorea
bloodlust dissappearing if more than 1 person uses it at once


Most amazing thing I've ever heard.
90 Pandaren Hunter
14775
Try a make a small experiment. Go to a lvl 70 dummy and track your DPS, after that, replace your agility gems with TBC epic pure hit rating ones until you reach 28% hit rating. That hit was required for rogues back in TBC, basically you couldnt afford to have any other gem except pure hit rating ones in order to reach cap because white damage was the most important.
Use the rotation: 2-3 CP -> SnD -> 5CP -> Rupture -> repeat and keep SnD up
Don't use Killing spree
Come back after and post your result, you'd be surprised.
90 Pandaren Hunter
13770
To make them harder, they would also have to bring abilities AND player skill/knowledge down to TBC levels again...just boosting damage and HP of bosses wouldn't do one thing for the fun factor, since then it'd just be a dps and heal race.

Let's face it, what was considered difficult back then, is easy today. The same thing can be said for most aspects IRL as well.
90 Blood Elf Hunter
8645
was leveling a mage and was thinking to make him into a lvl 60 or 70 twink..

when i reached lvl 60 i suddely did double dps as when i was lvl 59
so i guess it's kind of the same at lvl 70..
i guess it's to scale the characters progress towards the "new" lvl 60-70 content rather than the old lvl 60 end game content..

guess i'll keep leveling him for MoP.. goes fast anought anyways.. takes the mind off doing dailies..

anyhow.. if you want a challenge, try running it in lower ilvl greens / unenchanted / ungemmed..
run it with only 1 healer.. (or no healer)
run it with lesser people..

loads of possibilities..

friends of mine have a lvl 60 guild, and they run AQ40 with 15 ppl or less..
90 Pandaren Priest
9470
It's easy because of the new class mechanics. And they are not going to make them harder because that would make no sense at all to do.

Black Temple already became so much easier with the pre-WotLK patch. The ridiculous AoE threat/heals/dps made almost everything a joke.
Edited by Forlin on 28/11/2012 15:27 GMT
Community
We know that there are players interested running TBC at the appropriate character level but we can’t really tune old content to match every single change we apply to the game when we’re also adding options at the same time for high level players to enter those raids alone so they can solo bosses.

These are two different philosophies that just don’t work well together, it’s hard to tune things for both a level 90 to solo and for twinks to have a competitive and challenging raid, we do try to make that possible but our main focus is on level 90 content at the moment and in fine-tuning high level balance.

Honestly I love the idea of being able to raid all the old instances at the appropriate level and difficulty, there’s so much content left behind that new players will never get to experience the same way we did in the past and that feels like a bit of a loss to me as well, but on the other hand, I think it’s easy to understand why that happens, the amount of resources that would be required to constantly keep all old content perfectly tuned would be enormous.

With the launch of MoP, the talent revamp, all the changes that were applied to classes, all that has an effect on low level characters’ DPS, we know they’re not perfectly tuned, and although we always strive to perfect every single aspect of our game, priorities need to be taken in consideration and on top of the list needs to be high level content, when we’re satisfied with the state of that content we can start to pay a bit more attention to low-level tuning of characters and npcs.
I am leading a TBC guild on Argent Dawn. We just cleared SSC as our 4th raid down (kara, gruuls and maggy). We were 22 twinks in the raid group.

The bosses went down in no time.. I didn't even have to explain tacs on half of the bosses.
We had one wipe (the lurker below), but on 2nd attempt, the boss was taken down easily.
The average dps was 5.5k.. NERF!

Blizzard should really consider making the TBC raids a bit harder, so that us twinks still get a bit of challenge (yeah, we still exist!).

I'm sure that some people will reply and say "Why dont you just use Heroic dungeon gear and TBC gems"..
We are currently making a raiding team consisting of twinks who gear up without the boosts. Starting off with heroic and moving on to the raids. (including one of my two ungeared alts). It may get a bit harder, but it doesn't make a big diffrence tbh. The bosses dmg seems to be so low and tactics barely have to be explained cause of this..

Also, if we raid with our BiS twinks, we usually go with like 5 for Karazhan, 10 for gruuls, 12 for Mount Hyjal etc. Still there's no big challenge in it.

So why should Blizzard consider buffing the raids?:
I know about 65 active twinks on my current realm and a bit over 140 on another realm. I'm not sure how many twinks there are out there, but the number still seems to be quite high.
It wont be any big project to buff 8 raids, and it wont be of any trouble for the MoP expansion anyway. So just to make atleast 205 more people happy, they should really consider this..

Another thing im going to whine about would be the incredible unbalanced PvP in this bracket.. Its almost impossible to take a healer down these days. And rogues?.. lol nps?

Anyone agree, or is this just me complaining and have to move on?

Update:
I've made some "challenge mode" events for next week. Those who are BiS in our guild should take off 50% of their equipped items. Those who got heroic gear etc should just show up. This might make it a bit more fun.


sooo basicly you have the best gear you can have and then say stuff is easy well again you have the best gear and still say its easy

hmmmm OFC ITS EASY YOU HAVE THE BEST GEAR YOU CAN HAVE
90 Blood Elf Monk
6235
I really see blizzard doing a favor for like 1000 ppl total.. dream on...
They don't make things half their players want, why would they do this?
90 Orc Death Knight
12545
Maybe a better idea would be to introduce something similar to the challenge mode gear scaling for older raids and such.
90 Human Paladin
14090
I really see blizzard doing a favor for like 1000 ppl total.. dream on...
They don't make things half their players want, why would they do this?


^ this

Also, DO NOT buff Kaelthas Blizz! NEVER! ;D
90 Worgen Warrior
17405
If you roll a twink, you basicly sign up for an extremely easy PvE experience yet quite competitive and not-so-easy-to-get-into PvP bracket.

Sure its fun to revisit 6 years old stuff but to tweak old encounters (that are still almost exactly the same as they were when the next expansions came out) is really redundant. Twinks, although there are many, are still the minority and twinking is entirely optional. The game is built around endgame content and anything before that isn't nessecary to retune unless it actually keeps you from progressing further level-wise.

Simply put, either deal with and get over it or stop twinking if you don't like it. I had a full BiS geared twink for over 2 years and cleared all the PvE content just for fun, not for the challenge. After that I focussed entirely on PvP because that is what the lvl 70 twink bracket is all about. That is where you can find the challenge that you so desire. :D
90 Night Elf Druid
11355
They can't spend time on balancing old content.
90 Human Paladin
7695
Use lower level item's, problem solved
90 Undead Death Knight
15685
We know that there are players interested running TBC at the appropriate character level but we can’t really tune old content to match every single change we apply to the game when we’re also adding options at the same time for high level players to enter those raids alone so they can solo bosses.

These are two different philosophies that just don’t work well together, it’s hard to tune things for both a level 90 to solo and for twinks to have a competitive and challenging raid, we do try to make that possible but our main focus is on level 90 content at the moment and in fine-tuning high level balance.

Honestly I love the idea of being able to raid all the old instances at the appropriate level and difficulty, there’s so much content left behind that new players will never get to experience the same way we did in the past and that feels like a bit of a loss to me as well, but on the other hand, I think it’s easy to understand why that happens, the amount of resources that would be required to constantly keep all old content perfectly tuned would be enormous.

With the launch of MoP, the talent revamp, all the changes that were applied to classes, all that has an effect on low level characters’ DPS, we know they’re not perfectly tuned, and although we always strive to perfect every single aspect of our game, priorities need to be taken in consideration and on top of the list needs to be high level content, when we’re satisfied with the state of that content we can start to pay a bit more attention to low-level tuning of characters and npcs.

On a not so unrelated note, with MoP you buffed the mobs in Azeroth by doubling their health and I think that also applied to dungeons (especially bosses) and vanilla raids (not sure about that).
Whith 5.0.5. you buffed the health of TBC 5 man bosses, including heroic mode. But you didn't touch the mobs in Outland and also didn't touch the raid bosses, I guess.

Will we see some changes there and in later regions like Northrend? Especially to mob HP, as it is pretty strange to move from Silithus/Blasted Lands with 5k-7k mobs and 10k-14k nameds to ~4k mobs in Outland. Same goes for dungeons, where the TBC bosses on normal mode at the level 70 dungeons have nearly double the HP of the first Northrend dungeon bosses. Kael'thas even has a whooping 442k HP on heroic, Prince Keleseth barely touches the 200k. It's a bit strange and balancing is all around.
Edited by Naîx on 28/11/2012 17:21 GMT
70 Night Elf Rogue
9705
As many suggested, i think we'll try with some 'challenge modes'. We did a 15man TK run with 50% ungeared (newly dinged). We did fine on 3 first bosses (horrible on thrash - this havn't been nerfed? o.O) but wiped 3 times on Kael'thas. So for now we got a goal.

In the future, we'll come up with our own 'challenge modes', such as 50% gear only, full green, timed runs etc.
70 Orc Rogue
9835
Try a make a small experiment. Go to a lvl 70 dummy and track your DPS, after that, replace your agility gems with TBC epic pure hit rating ones until you reach 28% hit rating. That hit was required for rogues back in TBC, basically you couldnt afford to have any other gem except pure hit rating ones in order to reach cap because white damage was the most important.
Use the rotation: 2-3 CP -> SnD -> 5CP -> Rupture -> repeat and keep SnD up
Don't use Killing spree
Come back after and post your result, you'd be surprised.


2.4k dps naked here as combat on the lvl 70 dummy.
70 Night Elf Rogue
9705
28/11/2012 16:26Posted by Gnomeftw
hmmmm OFC ITS EASY YOU HAVE THE BEST GEAR YOU CAN HAVE


Please read what i wrote again..
90 Human Warlock
0
28/11/2012 23:30Posted by Ghoyle
2.4k dps naked here as combat on the lvl 70 dummy.


There's the problem. I was doing about 400-600 dps in blues in Shadow labs during TBC. Once gear got better - around T5 gear level 1.5K dps was the amount that was "good/Ok" in SSC and TK. If your pulling numbers like 5.5k and 2.4k naked then no wonder everything feels trivialized.

Also not to mention tanks AoE abilities, various raid cooldowns.

Characters just do so much more as well as the tuning being off - dps being too high.
Edited by Falc on 29/11/2012 07:59 GMT
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