Make TBC harder! - Found a solution

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90 Pandaren Hunter
14775
29/11/2012 07:56Posted by Falc
2.4k dps naked here as combat on the lvl 70 dummy.


There's the problem. I was doing about 400-600 dps in blues in Shadow labs during TBC. Once gear got better - around T5 gear level 1.5K dps was the amount that was "good/Ok" in SSC and TK. If your pulling numbers like 5.5k and 2.4k naked then no wonder everything feels trivialized.

Also not to mention tanks AoE abilities, various raid cooldowns.

Characters just do so much more as well as the tuning being off - dps being too high.


What he said !

Just to make things easier to understand, DPS needed to down Brutallus before nerf was 2k, every single DD in raid had to be above 2k in order to down him, and now you are pulling 2.4k naked
90 Undead Death Knight
7835
We know that there are players interested running TBC at the appropriate character level but we can’t really tune old content to match every single change we apply to the game when we’re also adding options at the same time for high level players to enter those raids alone so they can solo bosses.

These are two different philosophies that just don’t work well together, it’s hard to tune things for both a level 90 to solo and for twinks to have a competitive and challenging raid, we do try to make that possible but our main focus is on level 90 content at the moment and in fine-tuning high level balance.

Honestly I love the idea of being able to raid all the old instances at the appropriate level and difficulty, there’s so much content left behind that new players will never get to experience the same way we did in the past and that feels like a bit of a loss to me as well, but on the other hand, I think it’s easy to understand why that happens, the amount of resources that would be required to constantly keep all old content perfectly tuned would be enormous.

With the launch of MoP, the talent revamp, all the changes that were applied to classes, all that has an effect on low level characters’ DPS, we know they’re not perfectly tuned, and although we always strive to perfect every single aspect of our game, priorities need to be taken in consideration and on top of the list needs to be high level content, when we’re satisfied with the state of that content we can start to pay a bit more attention to low-level tuning of characters and npcs.


Easy Answer, Legacy Severs.

I know no one wants to hear it and it has been asked many times, people say no one will play on them, so prove them right and just do it.
90 Night Elf Hunter
11010
I am leading a TBC guild on Argent Dawn. We just cleared SSC as our 4th raid down (kara, gruuls and maggy). We were 22 twinks in the raid group.

The bosses went down in no time.. I didn't even have to explain tacs on half of the bosses.
We had one wipe (the lurker below), but on 2nd attempt, the boss was taken down easily.
The average dps was 5.5k.. NERF!

Blizzard should really consider making the TBC raids a bit harder, so that us twinks still get a bit of challenge (yeah, we still exist!).

I'm sure that some people will reply and say "Why dont you just use Heroic dungeon gear and TBC gems"..
We are currently making a raiding team consisting of twinks who gear up without the boosts. Starting off with heroic and moving on to the raids. (including one of my two ungeared alts). It may get a bit harder, but it doesn't make a big diffrence tbh. The bosses dmg seems to be so low and tactics barely have to be explained cause of this..

Also, if we raid with our BiS twinks, we usually go with like 5 for Karazhan, 10 for gruuls, 12 for Mount Hyjal etc. Still there's no big challenge in it.

So why should Blizzard consider buffing the raids?:
I know about 65 active twinks on my current realm and a bit over 140 on another realm. I'm not sure how many twinks there are out there, but the number still seems to be quite high.
It wont be any big project to buff 8 raids, and it wont be of any trouble for the MoP expansion anyway. So just to make atleast 205 more people happy, they should really consider this..

Another thing im going to whine about would be the incredible unbalanced PvP in this bracket.. Its almost impossible to take a healer down these days. And rogues?.. lol nps?

Anyone agree, or is this just me complaining and have to move on?

!!!Update!!!
We did Tempest Keep (15man) with half of the group in newly dinged gear (BiS took off some armor). 3/4 - Kael'thas wipe 3 times. then we called it for that night.

As many on the tread suggested, i think we just have to make our own 'challenge mode'. This could be by going 50% gear only, all green, tbc gems (many wont do this, as they spend a hell lot of gold on the wotlk ones), timed runs etc.

Thanks for the ideas guys!


If you want a challenge so bad the answer is simple - dont wear twink gear.

Dont wear woltk gear either

Just wear the level gear that was available when TBC was current.

like the players had to do in TBC
100 Human Warlock
19995
considering that i was able to clear kara with 3 lvl 70s , me-enha shaman , resto shaman and a mage ( did last boss with only me and resto ) back a few months ago , yea its easy . On top of that only i knew the tactics .
neither of us wore wotlk / cata gear , we had had lvl 70 epics and only I had wotlk enchants and gems .
Edited by Aprix on 29/11/2012 21:45 GMT
100 Worgen Druid
18205
28/11/2012 16:18Posted by Taepsilum
We know that there are players interested running TBC at the appropriate character level but we can’t really tune old content to match every single change we apply to the game when we’re also adding options at the same time for high level players to enter those raids alone so they can solo bosses.


Hence, toggling challengemodes, nerfing stats for a group that has set it to "Nostalgia-mode" to the ground basically, giving no class the ability to put out more than .5 times to what they'd need for the enrage timer. Old school raiders will be happy, soloers would be happy.

There's the issue of resources, but if we're talking about a game that has many different playstyles, this could increase the popularity of one. When implementing pet battles and enforcing that (more rare pets etc) , that is invigorating one aspect of the game. I think perhaps Blizz could look into enforcing this one aspect as well.

There's people who likes to cap the xp and run old content. I myself had two alts for tbc heroics. Not my main thing, but it was fun and I met players who did the same. I doubt many people who plays pet battles has that as their main thing as well.
That's one of the reasons xp-cap came in place, because there's players (a minority yes, but still a player base) who enjoys the game that way and to do the instances the way they were intended.

I appreciate your answer Taps, and am fully aware of that you can't do anything personally bar bring the message. But perhaps Blizz could look into it and see that they have created -alot- of -good- content that people want to experience. Perhaps they could look at how many people have their xp locked, or how many people want old-school servers and see if they have a large enough player base for a change in their policy to be, not reverted, as we're not talking about whole servers, but slighly modified.

Heck, if they manage to do it, perhaps they could de-level characters as well in Nostalgia-mode so new lvl 90-characters could zone into being 70, 80 and 85 ^^

I really don't know how much work there had to be done for such a mechanic (another mode added to an instance already in the game) to be implemented in the game. But the raw instances are there already, the mechanics are there (both in the sense of boss mechanics and the technology of double/quadruple instances, as as the lowering of stats of items like in cms)
and though I doubt it's a case of being able to copy an instance and create another mode, I'd think there'd be less work than creating DS....

If they set it to one setting, making the bar equal per instance per class, it would remove threads of tbc servers, it would remove requests for old raids being revamped and instead it could be a way to utilize a major portion of the game already in existence.
100 Worgen Druid
18205
Just wear the level gear that was available when TBC was current.

like the players had to do in TBC

Talents, class mechanics and output has changed so much that wearing tbc gear isn't enough of a put-down. When my non-loomed (another server) greengeared hunter with 2 blues manage to do 3,3k dps (1k more dps than the requirement of the 2nd end game boss) questing, people with half a sense of their class must be hitcapped only (a boss is a boss-type, not just another 70) and half-naked for it to even remotely resist keeling over easily.
90 Human Warrior
12230
I just looked at some old screenshots for my war when he was max lev in TBC ie lev 70
and he had 10k health.

The OP's rogue has 12k so over the years and expansions the chars are not even
the same as they was - ie the stats have changed for each expansion so
a lev 70 now has far higher stats back when 70 was the cap. (it will be the
same for every exp and level cap)

so even wearing greens a lev 70 today is still gonna have an advantage over 70s
that where max level in TBC

Then theres the difference in abilities - wars didnt have Titans Grip or Bladestorm etc
so the difference in DPS is going to be quite a lot right there.

The only answer as someone has already said - Legacy servers - The only way
Blizz would do that is if enough players asked for it. I dont think there are that
many who want blizz to spend resources on that.
Edited by Cerveau on 30/11/2012 02:03 GMT
70 Night Elf Rogue
9705
Hence, toggling challengemodes, nerfing stats for a group that has set it to "Nostalgia-mode" to the ground basically, giving no class the ability to put out more than .5 times to what they'd need for the enrage timer. Old school raiders will be happy, soloers would be happy.

There's the issue of resources, but if we're talking about a game that has many different playstyles, this could increase the popularity of one. When implementing pet battles and enforcing that (more rare pets etc) , that is invigorating one aspect of the game. I think perhaps Blizz could look into enforcing this one aspect as well.

There's people who likes to cap the xp and run old content. I myself had two alts for tbc heroics. Not my main thing, but it was fun and I met players who did the same. I doubt many people who plays pet battles has that as their main thing as well.
That's one of the reasons xp-cap came in place, because there's players (a minority yes, but still a player base) who enjoys the game that way and to do the instances the way they were intended.

I appreciate your answer Taps, and am fully aware of that you can't do anything personally bar bring the message. But perhaps Blizz could look into it and see that they have created -alot- of -good- content that people want to experience. Perhaps they could look at how many people have their xp locked, or how many people want old-school servers and see if they have a large enough player base for a change in their policy to be, not reverted, as we're not talking about whole servers, but slighly modified.

Heck, if they manage to do it, perhaps they could de-level characters as well in Nostalgia-mode so new lvl 90-characters could zone into being 70, 80 and 85 ^^

I really don't know how much work there had to be done for such a mechanic (another mode added to an instance already in the game) to be implemented in the game. But the raw instances are there already, the mechanics are there (both in the sense of boss mechanics and the technology of double/quadruple instances, as as the lowering of stats of items like in cms)
and though I doubt it's a case of being able to copy an instance and create another mode, I'd think there'd be less work than creating DS....

If they set it to one setting, making the bar equal per instance per class, it would remove threads of tbc servers, it would remove requests for old raids being revamped and instead it could be a way to utilize a major portion of the game already in existence.


I like you.. I like you a lot. I hope blizzard actually see this *nods*
90 Human Paladin
9070
is it not possible to re-release older versions of WOW with their own servers(with no transfers allowed on), meaning in that pocket of existance things would be as they were originally?
70 Dwarf Warrior
12225
im best in the world
70 Tauren Warrior
13560
is it not possible to re-release older versions of WOW with their own servers(with no transfers allowed on), meaning in that pocket of existence things would be as they were originally?

They have touched on this issue before and it's pretty much a no-no. What I have wondered about is maybe having some very low pop servers designated as go-to's for lvl 60, 70 80 and now 85 guilds.
70 Night Elf Rogue
9705
06/12/2012 20:57Posted by Púffsý
im best in the world


Zita /rw "stack on blue" - Púffsý pulls trash at scourge base.
Edited by Zitalin on 07/12/2012 09:15 GMT
90 Night Elf Rogue
10575
I haven't read the whole topic, but there is a idea:

Can't you simply create some kind of buff which will boost trash and bosses by some percent? You can calculate how much more DMG/stats now players have at level 70 and then create the buff. There can be NPCs or gameobject near the entrance of the raids where you could be able to set on/off the buff. Level 70 minority will be happy, as well as level 90 players which can use this buff as some kind of challenge. I don't see any negatives of this, just requires some work from developers :)

EDIT: Yes, it will not return the old glory of these instances, because players have new mechanics, spells, etc... but I hope it could be challenge for them anyway.
Edited by Novalis on 07/12/2012 12:32 GMT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14490
I am sorry but... level 70 guild raiding level 70 raids in MOP... seriously? Why don't you go to a private server or something? Would make your work easier.Also you won't have MOP talents and MOP enchants and WOTLK blues that are more powerful than Tbc raid loots.Sorry... that's just what my sense says.
70 Night Elf Rogue
9705
07/12/2012 12:29Posted by Novalis
Can't you simply create some kind of buff which will boost trash and bosses by some percent? You can calculate how much more DMG/stats now players have at level 70 and then create the buff. There can be NPCs or gameobject near the entrance of the raids where you could be able to set on/off the buff. Level 70 minority will be happy, as well as level 90 players which can use this buff as some kind of challenge. I don't see any negatives of this, just requires some work from developers :)


I support this idea!
90 Gnome Warrior
16445
We know that there are players interested running TBC at the appropriate character level but we can’t really tune old content to match every single change we apply to the game when we’re also adding options at the same time for high level players to enter those raids alone so they can solo bosses.

These are two different philosophies that just don’t work well together, it’s hard to tune things for both a level 90 to solo and for twinks to have a competitive and challenging raid, we do try to make that possible but our main focus is on level 90 content at the moment and in fine-tuning high level balance.

Honestly I love the idea of being able to raid all the old instances at the appropriate level and difficulty, there’s so much content left behind that new players will never get to experience the same way we did in the past and that feels like a bit of a loss to me as well, but on the other hand, I think it’s easy to understand why that happens, the amount of resources that would be required to constantly keep all old content perfectly tuned would be enormous.

With the launch of MoP, the talent revamp, all the changes that were applied to classes, all that has an effect on low level characters’ DPS, we know they’re not perfectly tuned, and although we always strive to perfect every single aspect of our game, priorities need to be taken in consideration and on top of the list needs to be high level content, when we’re satisfied with the state of that content we can start to pay a bit more attention to low-level tuning of characters and npcs.


Challenge mode man raids. You know you want it! :p
100 Pandaren Hunter
17735
The lack of difficulty comes from a thing called "Power Creep" this is what makes your character stronger each expac as rating change. TBC is probably doable by a team of lv 64's
90 Human Warlock
4620
The lack of difficulty comes from a thing called "Power Creep" this is what makes your character stronger each expac as rating change. TBC is probably doable by a team of lv 64's

That what it is, there a group of lvl 80 twinks (with mop gear ect) currently progressing in dragonsoul hc wich is just insane.
90 Troll Druid
10660
10/12/2012 20:45Posted by Lazel
I am sorry but... level 70 guild raiding level 70 raids in MOP... seriously? Why don't you go to a private server or something? Would make your work easier.Also you won't have MOP talents and MOP enchants and WOTLK blues that are more powerful than Tbc raid loots.Sorry... that's just what my sense says.


This, its just wrong that people ask blizzard to make the old content harder while most of the people are waiting for fixes and updates the current content. Want the challenge? seriously go to private server there you need to still do all the attuning quests and all.
100 Troll Warrior
17515
I really see blizzard doing a favor for like 1000 ppl total.. dream on...
They don't make things half their players want, why would they do this?


Yet they found those only 1K players, a number you don't have a reliable source for, important enough to remove the "Random burning crusade heroic" from the dungeon finder right?

I made a post about that here http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6635393513
It doesn't seem important to a lot but TBC content is still epic and i'm not surprised ppl want to experience that.

To the OP, going into SSC in Sunwell gears to make an example, was already easy during TBC. In fact, BT gears with tbc gems and enchants made everything else easy back then.
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