Resilience and duration of Crowd Control mechanics

Community
23/11/2012 15:50Posted by Sybille
Say a Human Warrior (purely theoretical) that stacks PvP power and is using Titan's Grip, they can get approximately 61% PvP power

Hmmm, no?
PvP power on weapons are unique.
Indeed, my apologies. I have now corrected my first post to reflect this, been a long week :p
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86 Night Elf Druid
11555

For example: You have 50% resilience rating and get hit by an 8-second fear. That would mean that the duration of fear is cut in half, resulting in 4 seconds of fear.

Some would say that this way CC would be almost useless, since resilience will reach over 70% in the future. Then I can propose that pvp power also increases the time of CC by the same amount, until the cap of 8 seconds.

This way a if a player with 60% resilience gets feared by a player with 35% pvp power, he will receive a 60-35= 25% reduced fear, that is 6 seconds.


A decent idea, worth the thought. If however they properly thought CC through (listened and stopped adding more instant CC that's unlossable into the game) and made it a more skill orientated part of this game, then this wouldn't be required.

The equation is damage VS the need to control someone. For example you CC the enemy healer in order to do damage to you're kill target without it being able to receive healing, ergo stopping 1 of the enemy team being able to contribute to the fight for a period of time.

Individual CC needs to be re-thought, blanket changes are the problem with this game. If more thought went into game balance, people wouldn't feel the need to propose such huge blanket things, like you are right now. What happens with teams that need the current length of CC to get a kill? You'll end up with games that last until the arena finishes. What we want is to move away from people being able to kill people in seconds and instead games where mistakes punish bad play but A) Not in a way that causes you to lose straight a way and B) Not in a way that causes mistakes to not severely effect the out come of the game. Something we call "Balance"

Also who would benefit the most from this change? Just off the top of my head Restoration druids would gain massively from shorter duration CC. Sometimes I try to time my CC so that that a target has 1-3 seconds left on lifebloom so the druid is CC'd when the stack drops off. Your change would especially be an issue against teams without an offensive dispel. Well timed CC is needed so that the druid is unable to re-apply the stacks, trying to kill a fully hotted target is pretty tough. This change would be a huge buff for hot based classes. Although a reasonable idea, you haven't fully thought about it's implications with regard to everything, but then again you seem to be in the same boat as the entire blizzard class balancing / PVP team (Not a direct snipe at you, you're idea is well reasoned but flawed, this forum needs dialogue and conversation in order to contribute to game balance, well that's the idea, it's not happening though!).
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86 Night Elf Druid
11555
23/11/2012 15:57Posted by Nakatoir

Hmmm, no?
PvP power on weapons are unique.
Indeed, my apologies. I have now corrected my first post to reflect this, been a long week :p


23/11/2012 15:57Posted by Nakatoir

Hmmm, no?
PvP power on weapons are unique.
Indeed, my apologies. I have now corrected my first post to reflect this, been a long week :p


A cheeky comment, but by any chance are you responsible for balancing PVP at the moment? You're oversight seems to be in line with, well idk...say hunters pets hitting through resilience for a pro-longed period of time, Warriors being able to clear 300k crits :)?

On a serious note though I do not expect you to be infallible, but that is a monumental oversight in you're reasoning. I can't help but feel and I do so with multiple blue replies in this forum, that the majority of you don't even understand the basics of PVP in this game at a reasonable level.

But the real worry is that, it's one thing to have representatives making mistakes like this, it's another have them regularly appear in the game from a developmental point of view. Id quite like to see a Q and A with some of the people in charge of replying to the forums to even see if they have a reasonable knowledge of PVP in this game, because I don't think they do.

Anyway I and I'm sure other do appreciate blues actually replying to topics in this forum, I just wish you did it in good well reasoned posts, because it doesn't take a genius to pick holes in the OP's proposal.
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90 Troll Druid
15555
While you're here, what is your opinion on Blood Fear as a mechanic.

Right now shamans are the go to healer for 3v3 given their ability to break this ability every minute. I don't have a problem with traps, pom abilities, or even NS (or predatory strikes) cyclones as they can be avoided through range, teammates or myself positioning ourselves or playing better, or locking down the opposite teams.

Blood Fear offers an already dominant class (hello demo locks) an instant CC at negligible cost that requires spamming of a focus macro that completely screws over any healer that pops into line of sight.

There needs to be a greater cost for using this ability as right now the 10 second cooldown is simply not enough, allowing it to be recast almost as soon as the previous fear ends. I would propose either a far greater health penalty (20%+) or a far longer cooldown (30 seconds).

I don't want to hijack the thread, and I understand that instant crowd control is somewhat needed given how many interrupts and stuns exist, and the small windows to peel. What riles me is that with almost every other talent or ability there is something that can be done to prevent it. I'll give a brief example then be on my way.

If i see a druid with PS or NS up, as a warrior I will reflect, gag order, or stun. As a druid, I will stay 30 yards away and make sure that I line of sight if he moves toward me. If a mage uses PoM ring on me, or switches in a deep I can make sure that my team mates make sure it isn't followed up by any further crowd control

With instant fear on a 10 second cooldown there is absolutely no way that players can avoid it.

Hopefully there was some reason in there - its been a long friday and an even longer week.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13485

I will say something that was said last time we mentioned that we are content with the current state of CC to try and prevent this. It is something I already touched on in the last post.


So you think it's good that you can be stunned in 2's at 60% health with over 60% resilience and be unable to move again before you die?

Do you guys even try pvp before you post here?
Edited by Nailbomb on 23/11/2012 17:00 GMT
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90 Orc Monk
10900
23/11/2012 12:41Posted by Nakatoir
We have said previously that we are content with the current state of crowd control,


but your players are not!
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90 Undead Death Knight
0
I'm sure many classes are having a ton of fun with all the CC in the game currently, but as a Death Knight I must it's a pain.

I've been playing arena since season 8, and while I've never earned a Gladiator title, I don't see myself as a total casual and I can't remember a season where CC was this overtuned. Warlocks spamming out 7 second instant fears? Well appearently I'm supposed to blanket them to stop that from happening, that's easy when my blanket is on a 2 minute cooldown.

For CC to work there has to be some tradeoff, lower damage preferably. But as it is now, all the classes with insane damage and burst have all the CC (Demo locks, frost mages, warriors, maybe shadow priests). While classes with moderate burst have little CC (Rogues, DKs). As it is now there's little reason to not just pick a warrior over any other melee because they have everything.
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90 Gnome Mage
17560
LOL Blizzard

The current state of MoP PvP?

World of Stuncraft
Bots galore
Worst Imbalance ever
MMR Exploit

Quite simply the worst PvP Expansion in gaming history
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90 Tauren Druid
12450
Thank you everyone for your opinions on the matter.
I never said that my proposal was the perfect deal. Of course it has flaws, but then again, isn't it natural? You cannot apply something to a game with so many class combinations/spells without ruining something else. It is the natural course that such a complicated game will take.

It is not as easy as, say, League of Legends where every hero has 5 spells and you can adjust their power at will. However, I think that with the application of blanket changes we can find the weak and strong spots on every class and move on to changes. In any case, even though it may not seem fun at all, limiters can be implemented in pvp, like maximum damage taken, maximum healing done, maximum time spent CCed, etc.
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90 Orc Warrior
8590
This is something ive felt strongly for a while. The huge amount of CC really puts me off pvp. I speak as mainly a BG pvper, and while i know you dont balance around battle grounds i seriously think you should. Its the pvp that people do the most.
It really feels like you arent in control of your character most of the time while fighting in groups in BGs.
Most days i just get fed up and log off or do something else, but i would love to enjoy pvp more, i think abilities (damage and healing) could be toned down to much more enjoyable levels if we werent all so reliant on cc.
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90 Draenei Paladin
6230
LOL Blizzard

The current state of MoP PvP?

World of Stuncraft
Bots galore
Worst Imbalance ever
MMR Exploit

Quite simply the worst PvP Expansion in gaming history


Haha this sums up MoP to me. Funny stuff.
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85 Undead Mage
2690
Crowd control is fine l2p.

best regards: mage
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9910
23/11/2012 12:41Posted by Nakatoir
That is quite an interesting concept, but it appears to take something that is and should be quite simple, then makes it incredibly complex. It would be quite difficult to know how long you will be CC'd or CC'ing for in a match because it would vary from player to player.


Different amount of time cc'd from pvp encounter to pvp encounter - this seems to raise the skill cap since you can't just say " oh well, after this fear I'm going to be blinded for another 8 seconds "

it sounds like a good idea !
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90 Troll Druid
4355
That is quite an interesting concept, but it appears to take something that is and should be quite simple, then makes it incredibly complex. It would be quite difficult to know how long you will be CC'd or CC'ing for in a match because it would vary from player to player.

There would be other issues with such a system too, what if a player had more PvP power than the other person had Resilience? Say a Human Warrior (purely theoretical) that stacks PvP power and is using Titan's Grip, they can get approximately 53% PvP power and they face someone just getting into PvP having only 40% resilience. They will be stunned by any of the Warriors CC for 13% longer :(

You could change the "8 second cap" to be "capped at skills base PvP duration", but other issues could possibly arise too. Maybe there would be technical limitations on such a system or Resilience may out scale PvP power making CC almost useless and vice versa.

We have said previously that we are content with the current state of crowd control, but it is really cool to see more on how you would all like to see CC function in PvP. Just because we are okay with how CC works right now doesn't mean we are not open to feedback from the community on the subject, so feel free to add your thoughts in this topic. :)


I thought pvp was supposed to be balanced around 3v3 arena, and that means geared players. I don't see the issue

LOL Blizzard

The current state of MoP PvP?

World of Stuncraft
Bots galore
Worst Imbalance ever
MMR Exploit

Quite simply the worst PvP Expansion in gaming history

Sums up this expansion pretty good.
Edited by Xred on 23/11/2012 19:58 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13100
23/11/2012 17:00Posted by Soku
We have said previously that we are content with the current state of crowd control,


but your players are not!


This!

It's not fun to be stuck in CC all the time, whether or not you're content with it, it's still bad design to not be able to control your character :<

I don't really agree with the OPs solution, but the fact that it needs a solutions surely proves that there's too much CC?
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Too much INSTANT cc.
CC should be avoidable, to some degree.
This is what used to separate the bad players, from the good players.
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81 Orc Hunter
1195
Too much INSTANT cc.
CC should be avoidable, to some degree.
This is what used to separate the bad players, from the good players.


This.
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27 Orc Rogue
0
23/11/2012 09:13Posted by Izelor
I was thinking
Dont think too hard, you know it aint good for you !
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90 Tauren Druid
12450
23/11/2012 23:06Posted by Theorckong
I was thinking
Dont think too hard, you know it aint good for you !


I can't help it. It goes against my nature!
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36 Night Elf Mage
xs
13910
this looks like my offer of "dynamic abilities" (posted here couple days ago), which IMO would not be a bad thing.
Only difference is that I thought abilities should change as MMR changes, because gear can always be abused.

Like for example, fear might dr longer at lower MMR, or chaos wave hits lighter.
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