World of Stuncraft, why didn't Deathwing kill us.

90 Orc Shaman
8625
One word - Blood Fear - It's the most unskilled, easiest spell to get off. 10% of your health is nothing when your running with a R.Shaman for example. Annoying as !@#$ and requires nothing but just a focus macro and click it for instant win
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90 Human Warrior
9600
Sticky requested....

I've spent nearly 8 years as a PVE player...only dabbling in BGS and Arena to get a new weapon etc...but this season i've started to take it a bit more seriously and !@#$%^- there's so much cc in arena, it's not even funny.
I'm still sticking with the game, i've been through the good times and the bad and this expansion is the best one of the lot...but people are right though, pvp is broken at the moment, the developers are shooting from the hip too much and listening to a small portion of players (mages lol)....anyways, Merry Christmas everyone and remember to have fun...
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90 Pandaren Warrior
5880
i dont even play pvp that much but i also agree that normally rogue's were stun masters and they were best @ pvp... now with al the silence and stuns even in PVE its not fun anymore...
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Community
10/12/2012 16:56Posted by Anarchy
Nakatoir, don't you have your own personal opinion?
Of course I do, however my own personal opinions are not a factor in my work. I must remain impartial to be able to properly and appropriately relay the feedback from players to the developers, if I am not impartial, it may cause the feedback to be quite one-sided. :(

If I have the desire to post my own personal opinion in a thread, I would do so on my own normal character and account.

10/12/2012 16:56Posted by Anarchy
You just proved you copy and paste what ghostcrawler says.
My responses are not a direct quote of developer answers and I would like to think that my last post was in this thread was re-phrased enough to make it not just a simple "copy-paste". There is nothing wrong with communicating something that a developer has already mentioned on Twitter as there may be many players here on the forums that are not aware of our other avenues of communication.
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90 Tauren Druid
12450
The funny fact is that people are just too compelled to play this game to quit it for real. If, for example, they lost 3-4 million players, then they would consider changing some stuff. But then again I am not even sure that more than 2 million play just for pvp.

The game at this stage is made to give people always something to do, be it achievements, rep farming, questing, etc. So even if people are disappointed from pvp, they can just do something else (except LFR, it is the most boring thing in WoW. I enjoy waiting in the queue of Brawlers Guild more!).

Actually, even if the game sat at a couple of million players, then they would release Titan after 1-2 years and that is that. We have to accept that WoW is now made for casuals so it has to keep the player base casual. It is too hard for a new person to learn how to pvp with all these mechanics, too hard to be accepted in a serious guild without any experience.

So all that's left are the mini games, world events, scenarios, LFR, random BGs, heroic instances. These stuff require little time and almost zero skill. So the player feels happy, accomplished and keeps p(l)aying.
This is the player base that matters to Blizzard. Hardcores are only a 5% of the total community. Even if all major guilds were to quit, none would have noticed, or even cared, since this would only cost them some thousand customers.

Back to the topic, in order to fix pvp, we have to break the classes. This means that every class should have just 1-2 cc mechanics, 1 interrupt with a 30-45 sec cd and that's all. Also nerf mana regen of healers by around 50% and mana regen of offensive casters should be static (around 1k per 5 sec). This way there would not be the infinite reservoir of mana we have the last two expansions. Also all damage should be reduced by roughly 30%.
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90 Human Paladin
8215
yeah cc... yesterday was also fun! was in bg, got feared, no stun breakers left, died in a full fear

/facepalm
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90 Orc Warrior
17010
Allow me to say this from the point of view of a warrior mainly but also from what I consider to be a general case.
In my opinion stuns, cc and the like are in a pretty good place if you take into account how it was in previous expansions. There were soul link/Siphon life warlocks who would just dot and fear, there were and still are to a degree frost mages who can lock you down with slows and snares. Now a larger number of crowd controls exist the tables are somewhat more even and we do have counters for some. In bgs and arenas there will be some chaining of crowd control but that's good use of these abilities. Can you honestly say you wouldn't do this if you were in that position? Winning a bg is the aim of the game and the game would be pretty boring without some variation on -how- its won, be it damage or cc usage that leads to it.

Yes it can be frustrating but there are ways around it. Warriors, spec safeguard and use that to break movement impairing effects. No friends around? Ill intervene my mocking banner (my aoe taunt in pve) as a pvp utility! Polymorphed? Well Ill glyph spell reflection if that suits my gameplay. Stunned? Well I just happen to be an orc so Ill break that stun a little bit quicker and because I took second wind I will do my best to eat your face when Im free...just you wait!
Edited by Brockus on 11/12/2012 10:24 GMT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
15545
How bout add more DMs? Especially to rogues...4 sec cheap shot, followed by a atleast 4 sec kidney, into another 3 secs of stun cuz of the retarded talent

nicee


At least you won’t get killed in a rogue stunlock. If you can still call it that.

10/12/2012 16:57Posted by Nananamagee
We would very much like to make it so that more crowd controls start going back to having a cast time. We feel that instant cast spells should be something that's rare to see and we admit that they have become far too common.


It is the caster vs melee arms race that has escalated to a point where casters can only cast instant casts as melee has almost 100% uptime.

for instance duel vs a warrior and a mage EVEN after the pummel/heroic throw and avatar nerf is instant cast burst or die for the mage.

Every single competent warrior is specced now to have: 2x spell reflect, shockwave, aoe interrupt, intervene and then they have pummel, fear, charge stun etc. ann all these are in such a short cd when chained warrior has basically 100% uptime and when they are in nova they can always do something else like def stance reflect, reflect again.

in fact the only time mage can hurt the warrior is when he is in DF. other casters ... i don`t even know what they do they just die instantly and it is not even the warrior burst that kills them but the 100% uptime and inability to do anything about it.

right now mage has such an amazing burst that they conseguently can kill a warrior in one properly executed df but that is side point.

the general point is this. the arms race between melee and casters has escalated to a situation where casters can only ever do anything when they melee is in complete stun. if not they can shut you down so well ... or i should say some classes like warrior perfectly and other classes less perfectly and some classes not at all like retri paladin but that is the reason you are seeing so much instant casts. without it melee would at the current set of abilities stomp the casters before they get a single cast off.

i would just love to see anyone get a cast of on a warrior who is free to act. 2x charge, 30 sec leap, 2 interrupts if not in nova, 2x spellreflect , banner intervene, fear if in range, avatar, trinket if in nova. couple that with the fact that if you let the warrior be on your skin you will die to amazing burst. block? nope. shattering throw and it continues.

In fact if we did not have things like fingers to df from pet freeze, pom to ring, frost nova to df we would not get a single cast of never.

and i am not really complaining about mage vs warrior but explaining how the tools race has led to a situation where casters are completely reliant on stuns and instant casts because melee when free has so amazing toolset to completely shut you down.


This is more a “caster vs warrior” issue than a “caster vs melee” one. We all know warrior burst, mobility and control is, well, out of control…
Btw, melee in general, with exception of warriors, do not have 100% uptime on you. If that is the case, you are doing it very wrong as a mage.

But yes, CC and burst right now is completely effed up.
And also the amount of abilities that are out of place on a character class/spec: why have fire spells as a frost mage, why hymn as a shadow priest, why a vanish as a priest, why a stealth as a hunter, why having high mobility on a plate wearing class and low mobility on an agility class, …
What is the reason behind this all? Bring the player, not the class? I don’t believe in this, except if it narrowed down to “bring the ranged DPS you want”. (although I have to say that melee unfriendliness is not too bad this tier)
I just wish that classes had still a theme, because the themes are al over the place right now.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
0
10/12/2012 16:29Posted by Soku
We would very much like to make it so that more crowd controls start going back to having a cast time. We feel that instant cast spells should be something that's rare to see and we admit that they have become far too common in Mists of Pandaria.


Finally, let casters and healers cast for a change, but keep in mind to tweek the interrupts and mobility of some classes because it could be an overkill for casters to get interrupted 90% of the time.

and lower cd on hex :D
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90 Night Elf Warrior
0
11/12/2012 10:24Posted by Draconigena
Btw, melee in general, with exception of warriors, do not have 100% uptime on you.


Good one m8, made my morning.
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90 Orc Rogue
13545
@op,

Man i wanna thank you for making this thread! atleast someone has the mind.

@Blizzard,

Go ahead fix every class in every patch, skip rogues tottaly. brb installing rift
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90 Night Elf Hunter
14825
Stuns and self heals are two major elements that put WoW PvP into a very terrible position.
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6 Tauren Shaman
0


Never said it was but when removing the only instant burst we had we depend on blood fear more to set up our cast time spells that is all that is remaining.


Blood fear can stay but it does need a significant nerf, perhaps to a 30 or 45 second cool down.

As it stands its an instant cast cc with the fear time being only marginally shorter than the cool down time, which is blatantly overpowered. Or if not a cool down then a reduction in the fears actual time, lower the fear down to 3/4 seconds keep the cool down at 10.


Dont even know why i respond since account cancled... Anyways do You really think there would be 1 single lock in the intire world of warcraft that would chose to take bloodfear on a 30 sec cooldown... Aaaahahahahahahahahah.
If fear was baseline then yea. Picking up a castable fear with a 30 sec cooldown.. excuse me for !@#$ing %^-*ting my pants
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I wish everyone good luck in PvP and I hope at least it's enjoyable for some players.
/Thanks for all the adventures blizzard - been a pleasure to be with your side for so long.
Meanwhile i'll be playing Tetris. GG

Good luck, mate.

TS is right, PvP in its current state feels like adopted, forgotten child. Requiem for a dream. 8 years and Blizzard even did not release pvp spectator mode. 8 years, guys, think about it. More, you have to pay x2 if you aren't interested in PvE: arena pass servers requires active WoW subscription. So yeah, PvP is soooooo important to them. Joking, ofc no. Words weights nothing, deeds - do and their deeds says "!@#$ you and your PvP". Robert Kotick's evil genius who made artists into managers? Dunno.

I canceled subscription too a month ago and it ends tomorrow. The reason is quite simple, my friendlist is empty. Nearly everyone I know stopped playing WoW cuz of awful pvp balance and dailies.

But you know what? I do not regret I played MoP. The WoW is still a great game. The most important thing here is: it is the best ever game to return. No drama in subscription cancel, you always are welcome back. Think about it and return when you are ready for some new adventures. Till we meet again! I know we will.
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11/12/2012 10:24Posted by Draconigena
Btw, melee in general, with exception of warriors, do not have 100% uptime on you.


Ferals.
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90 Undead Priest
7455
Allow me to say this from the point of view of a warrior mainly but also from what I consider to be a general case.
In my opinion stuns, cc and the like are in a pretty good place if you take into account how it was in previous expansions. There were soul link/Siphon life warlocks who would just dot and fear, there were and still are to a degree frost mages who can lock you down with slows and snares. Now a larger number of crowd controls exist the tables are somewhat more even and we do have counters for some. In bgs and arenas there will be some chaining of crowd control but that's good use of these abilities. Can you honestly say you wouldn't do this if you were in that position? Winning a bg is the aim of the game and the game would be pretty boring without some variation on -how- its won, be it damage or cc usage that leads to it.
Yes it can be frustrating but there are ways around it. Warriors, spec safeguard and use that to break movement impairing effects. No friends around? Ill intervene my mocking banner (my aoe taunt in pve) as a pvp utility! Polymorphed? Well Ill glyph spell reflection if that suits my gameplay. Stunned? Well I just happen to be an orc so Ill break that stun a little bit quicker and because I took second wind I will do my best to eat your face when Im free...just you wait!


So your basically saying that cc healing and dmg is fine, from your perspective of playing fov warrior wich is op as hell?
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90 Tauren Druid
9675
save your trinket bro
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90 Tauren Paladin
11450
I love getting killed in duration of one stun.
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90 Undead Death Knight
5115
The problems are in my opinion not really the stuns and instant CC. The problem is the balance between the damage and the CC. Let's define a 'average unhealed lifetime' AUL of a player as the time a player would -on average- survive while being damaged by one opponent, without being healed. This is more a hypothetical concept than a real measurable number though.

There's 3 important balances that should be respected in PvP:

  • The balance between damage and healing
  • This seems more or less OK. Although healing might be a little bit too high at the moment. Nothing more frustrating than in 2v2 bringing a target down to 10%, only to have it healed to 90% in 1 second. To have a good balance, healing and damage per second should be more or less in the same range.

  • The balance between the AUL and CC duration
  • If a stun lasts 5 seconds, and the AUL is around 5-6 second, the duration of the stun is obviously too long. However if the AUL would be 30-40 seconds then a 5 second stun is perfectly fine. Since it is harder to continuously balance the duration of stuns and other CC, it is the preferred to balance the AUL.

  • The balance between the AUL and the global cooldown
  • This one is more about the quality of play and the feeling that a player can actually do something while being under attack. If the AUL is 6 seconds a player can use let's say 4-6 spells before dieing. If the players gets CC'ed this is even less, so this balance is closely tied to the previous one. If the AUL would be around 30-40 seconds, then the player can execute many actions to fight back and/or protect himself from harm.

    Since balancing many skills individually is not easy, the best route to balance might be to simply tune down ALL damage and healing in PvP. Reduce ALL damage AND healing by a certain %. And I'm really thinking something along the lines of at least halving the damage and healing, perhaps even more. This will ensure players just live longer, and since the healing is also reduced people will still eventually die, but no longer in a single stun.

    So with 1 simple number one can balance PvP without messing around with PvP power, resilience, or individual skills. This will also provide the much needed small boost for high sustained low burst damage classes.

    The last upgrade of PvP power on the weapons was such a terrible idea. What it did was make people die faster, or get healed faster. While we basicly want to obtain the exact opposite.
    Edited by Deadisdead on 11/12/2012 12:35 GMT
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