World of Stuncraft, why didn't Deathwing kill us.

55 Gnome Death Knight
90
just strip of abilities from all classes and split the talent trees again

ferals shouldnt have ns or typhoon...
arms shouldnt have shockwave...
the list is endless

we dont need 3 new spells and talent tree reworks every bloody expansion, never change a winning team...

make new content instead of !@#$ting out nonsene spells every year
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90 Night Elf Monk
10845
Reduce ALL damage AND healing by a certain %. And I'm really thinking something along the lines of at least halving the damage and healing, perhaps even more. This will ensure players just live longer, and since the healing is also reduced people will still eventually die, but no longer in a single stun.


Hello Vanilla mortal strike.
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90 Human Paladin
16190
10/12/2012 16:22Posted by Nakatoir
We would very much like to make it so that more crowd controls start going back to having a cast time. We feel that instant cast spells should be something that's rare to see and we admit that they have become far too common.


Here here!

I got a suggestion.

There is too much CC? lets just nerf Ret Paladins again.

Take that to GC, Nak. I am sure that he will agree.

Might want to buff Mages tho, poor Arcane cant play PvP.
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90 Undead Warrior
8545
100% agree with OP, theres FAR too much CC in this game, and way too many instant spells, both healing and CCing, most of the time you've to lock down a healer completely 100% of the time to ever score a kill, and thats absolutely no fun from both PoVs, i really hope to see alot less instant spells and far less CC later on in the game, i recently dinged 90 with my warlock and was looking forward to some BG pvp as destro but... its just so boring with how pvp is now :(
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78 Troll Hunter
5910
CC in MOP is out of whack, the same as damage is moronic.

Warriors: Seriously ? Hard hitters - check, Best mobile class, with 2x charge & heroic Leap - Check, Ability to stun - Check, Ability to fear - Check, Ability to disarm - check, selfhealing - check

Mages: Talk about a canon with out the glass side effect, I get hit by up to 80% of my hp with resilience nearing 68%! within seconds! Throw in the ranged ability to frost cube you, and the ability to avoid damage in either their own cube or by jump blinking.

Locks & Spriests: Fear not breaking is the no. 1 issue any true pvp'er will face so many times its not even funny. Who invented the fact that you had to run aimlessly about and more often than not, far away from the fray, only so after the fear is over after 5-7 seconds you have to go back only to have the lock fear you again!

The above is the 3 biggest issues PVP have so far in my book! Solutions:

Remove some utility from the warrior class, you can have high mobility but you cant have both that and more CC abilities than any other class!
Get rid of every man for himself! you can even remove will of the forsaken if that makes you happy aswell
Mages, and here we are talking frost, needs to be hit by the nerf hammer damage wise HARD, we are talking 30-40% nerf here. They are like Rets in the begging of Wotlk! Its no fun not beign able to do jack to hinder the burst they can put up.
Fear, we desperately need a whole lot more of diminishing return here! I am talking about removing the ability to fear more than 4 seconds once each minut. The newly added feature with specifying that you are CC'ed only adds to the pain as it is now blatantly obvious how unbalanced running around for 4-7 seconds truly are, especially when you can get hit by it multiple times in a row. Make fear share the new diminishing return suggested with horrified and we can finally start to view PVP as somewhat further balanced.
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90 Night Elf Mage
8365
+1
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90 Undead Monk
8135
I think the (imo obnoxious) Loss Of Control UI has only highlighted the state of CC more. I'm not a fan of the design and have switched it off, but with it on and even at lower levels, it illustrates all too well just how little control you have in BG PvP these days.

I have a personal hatred of the fear mechanic but having it pop up on screen basically telling me I'm sh*t out of luck for the next 8 seconds isn't the best way to appease your user base.

To counter this point it's just as ridiculous on my levelling ret pally currently. The ability to throw an instant 5 sec stun on a 25sec CD on someone and then basically blow them up is just bewildering. Unless said poor target if bubbled/pre-hotted he doesnt stand a chance. Add to that the non-human toons only having at best a 5min CD trinket and you can see just how insane that is. Add then the fact that every spec and it's granny has some form of over-the-top CC, the only result is less fun for all.

I liked BG PvP when it took more than 3 seconds to kill or be killed. Maybe my mind is just slowing down with age...
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Now that talents are no longer tied to specific specializations it provides some classes with excess CC in comparison to others.

e.g. Hunters: Silencing Shot used to be MM, Wyvern Sting used to be SV and Intimidation used to be BM. MM & SV both gave away their special CC shot to the tier 2 talents while BM kept Intimidation. It's now possible for BM hunters to have 2 CC shots (not even mentioning Scatter Shot which has been baseline for 2 expansions).

e.g. Warriors: Shockwave used to be the top tier talent for Protection warrior and a signature tanking ability. It can now be selected by all warriors as part of tier 4 talents. What CC talent did Arms & Fury warriors give away in return for that ?

Etc...

The problem is that burst is way too high for some classes and chain CC is the only protection against instagib abilities. It's a chicken & egg thing: what came first, the instant CC or the instant cast spell / talent ?
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81 Orc Hunter
1195
Looking back at tbc pvp.. that's more or less how it should be, less CC/instants/selfhealing etc.

Today everyone have stuns/fears/selfhealing etc, it's not fun when every class has the same ability but with a different name.

Instants overall need to be tuned down, such as lavaburst resets & starsurge procs, got hit for 120k starsurge earlier.. Yeah boomkins aren't that good, but it doesn't justify having a 120k from an instant proc, hardcasting is nowhere to be found in mop pvp which is sad.

Selfhealing.. just look at it, warlocks with dark regeneration & glyphed healthstone.. that's some insane selfhealing, or second wind.. What was wrong with wotlk's second wind? It healed 10% of max hp over 10secs if stunned/immobilized.

Also giving e.g Arms Shockwave is just a mistake.. or fire mages deepfreeze, could've given Icy veins instead of DF, because we used to be able to spec into it with every spec.

There used to be difference between a good and a bad mage, but look at them now.. The only thing you really cast is frostbomb/poly because frostbolt is worthless & u don't have time to hardcast it 90% of the time.

Take a look at:
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stats-talents-8-0-0-0--0-0-0.html#

There's really no choice for a mage with the talents for PvP, improved invisibility vs cauterize vs cold snap, coldsnap wins ofcourse, imp invis is useless..

Or ice barrier vs blazing speed, just lol..

I hope 5.2 gets the talent trees right.. just stop adding more ridiculous CC/instants/selfhealing.
Edited by Tublat on 11/12/2012 14:22 GMT
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90 Tauren Shaman
6695
Srlsy all i see is ppl talking about specifics, classes that arent the ones they are using. You want to remove something from a class but you wont consider the effects that has on that class against other then yours, so next week they nerf the class you're whinning about an the week after that they nerf the class that is nuking the nerfed class and so on untill it gets to yours. If you want something to change, you have to change all the classes to put them on the same level, its not just one and everything's ok! Thats the main reason pvp gets unbalanced.
Just make a table and put everything every class has, buffs, skills, skills cds, skills timers, passives (racials maybe later) compare them and make changes according to that. i mean if everyone's has fear then that ability is fair for everyone, but that would be stupid, so you add fear on melees (like warr and DK, since warr is suppose to be scary and DK too) but on casters you add sheep (I mean, its magic? priests can fear or blind with holy light or something else) but then sheep has 50 secs and regens health, with fear you add something else that would give +- the same benefit as the sheep (maybe another skill? a single stun?) rogues are the kings of stuns blinds and stealth add the same functionality but within those skills, yes they give low damage, make it easy to go stealth but then if some plate gets you out of it you suppose to get die fast. I thought the game was suppose to be like this, about feeling the class and having fun being what the class says it is.

but hey, what do i know im just someone with no rating or achivements :)
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90 Human Paladin
11310
10/12/2012 16:57Posted by Nananamagee
Every single competent warrior is specced now to have: 2x spell reflect, shockwave, aoe interrupt, intervene and then they have pummel, fear, charge stun etc. ann all these are in such a short cd when chained warrior has basically 100% uptime and when they are in nova they can always do something else like def stance reflect, reflect again.


well if you have 2 spellreflect where one of them has a 1 min cd, makes it impossible for them to have a root break from intervene. and plz, any competent mage/caster will just put their pet on attack wich will break the ref or make cast a simple ice lance to break it. A good mage vs a good warr? the mage wins. simple as that.
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just strip of abilities from all classes and split the talent trees again

ferals shouldnt have ns or typhoon...
arms shouldnt have shockwave...
the list is endless

we dont need 3 new spells and talent tree reworks every bloody expansion, never change a winning team...

make new content instead of !@#$ting out nonsene spells every year


I'd also like to quote this comment from Vmedouch.
The constant refreshing of talents / abilities / glyphs every expansion gets tiresome.
It takes 2-3 content patches to reach "balance" (basically the state when you find out that your chosen spec is either doomed to suck or ingloriously OP for the rest of the expansion).
Instead of tweaking the numbers and reaching an equilibrium for all specs involved, the whole rule book gets rewritten again by adding more bloated abilities to our already crowded spell books.
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90 Undead Death Knight
8865
I'm new to this game, not even played a year yet and this stun/freeze/silence overdone effects will make me stand still so many times that it will take 2 years before I have moved around as 1 year..
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
14630
I see a lot of people hiding behind level 1 alts here :)

Without DC and blood fear I wouldn't have any cc apart from my pet (Shivarra) and any lock taking sac would be stuck with a 1.6 second cast on fear. In arena it might be ok partner could peel but in random bgs it would be killer I can barely get a cast off with a warrior on me, if I didn't have blood fear or death coil I'd be blowing my survival CDs until I was dead.

Let's also not forget blood fear has 10 second cd has DR and breaks on damage.

I'm not going to qq about other classes to much but one thing that I am really noticing is warriors and hunters seem to have far to much control and with shockwave hitting for 70 to 100k on all targets and stunning them for 4 seconds, instant cast, and does not break on damage. Then spell reflect, mass spell reflect. Then intimidating shout aoe fear with 1 minute cd. Then staggering shout. Then silence.

I think the issue is with classes like locks we have fear (apart from pet abilities which are limited and shadow fury which is less than ideal due to how it's targeting works) fear is great but A it breaks on damage and B it has DR. Then you have other classes that have a stun a fear a root and a silence none of these share DR cause their all different forms of cc therefore chained together there's nothing u can. If you don't talent blood fear as a lock your not going to get a 1.6 cast off.
Edited by Gozer on 11/12/2012 16:51 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
14630
CC in MOP is out of whack, the same as damage is moronic.

Warriors: Seriously ? Hard hitters - check, Best mobile class, with 2x charge & heroic Leap - Check, Ability to stun - Check, Ability to fear - Check, Ability to disarm - check, selfhealing - check

Mages: Talk about a canon with out the glass side effect, I get hit by up to 80% of my hp with resilience nearing 68%! within seconds! Throw in the ranged ability to frost cube you, and the ability to avoid damage in either their own cube or by jump blinking.

Locks & Spriests: Fear not breaking is the no. 1 issue any true pvp'er will face so many times its not even funny. Who invented the fact that you had to run aimlessly about and more often than not, far away from the fray, only so after the fear is over after 5-7 seconds you have to go back only to have the lock fear you again!

The above is the 3 biggest issues PVP have so far in my book! Solutions:

Remove some utility from the warrior class, you can have high mobility but you cant have both that and more CC abilities than any other class!
Get rid of every man for himself! you can even remove will of the forsaken if that makes you happy aswell
Mages, and here we are talking frost, needs to be hit by the nerf hammer damage wise HARD, we are talking 30-40% nerf here. They are like Rets in the begging of Wotlk! Its no fun not beign able to do jack to hinder the burst they can put up.
Fear, we desperately need a whole lot more of diminishing return here! I am talking about removing the ability to fear more than 4 seconds once each minut. The newly added feature with specifying that you are CC'ed only adds to the pain as it is now blatantly obvious how unbalanced running around for 4-7 seconds truly are, especially when you can get hit by it multiple times in a row. Make fear share the new diminishing return suggested with horrified and we can finally start to view PVP as somewhat further balanced.


What world are you pvping in?

Can I first point out:

Hunters: Intimidation, Pet blind, Trap, Scatter shot, Silencing shot, Scare beast (if it's a feral) NONE of those share DR.

Warriors I can agree they have to much control and the main problem most of those abilities don't share DR.

Then your complaining about a mages burst sorry learn to stampede, I'm watching myself get crited for 70 from a pet while auto shots are hitting me for at least 10k a tick. Hunters burst is ridiculous as is most classes burst. Your idea of reducing their damage by 30% while your power shot is still criting resi targets for just under 200k is just crazy (omg can't believe I'm defending mages!!!!)

One minute DR on fear lawl sorry that one really made me laugh. Can't speak for priests fear but mine most definitely has DR by about 3rd to fourth fear it comes up immune and before you say I can charm with my pet it shares DR with fear ;) Soo if I get 1 minute DR on fear what am I supposed to use for cc a restraining order from fel industries?
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90 Undead Rogue
8510
Sad truth Gozer is that locks are allready in bad shape, but bloodfear is indeed way too good. If they remove it tho, and dont fix warlocks, I'm afraid locks would be non existant in arenas.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
14630
Hmm your not wrong Apach, maybe an increase to it's CD is needed but 1 minute DR would be just crazy considering how fast pvp is over these days.
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90 Orc Warlock
5480
11/12/2012 16:54Posted by Apach
Sad truth Gozer is that locks are allready in bad shape, but bloodfear is indeed way too good. If they remove it tho, and dont fix warlocks, I'm afraid locks would be non existant in arenas.


BLZ has over the 8 years that I've played this game shown that they are fine with some classes having zero really viable PvP specs.
Warrios last season, Hunters half of Cata etc etc.

BLZ are complete idiots when it comes to PvP balance, always has been and always will be.
Just listen at GC - the clueless monkey squad leader's most recent qoutes regarding splitting abilities into one value for PvE and one for PvP.

Make PvP abilities a mod to PvE abilities = PvP changes isolated. Add PvP Stance for equipment/glyphs, fallback to PvE gear.
We make abilities work differently as a later sort, but I for one don't want to have to earn two different rule sets. (Source)
Greg making two rule sets is the only way to fix the PVE vs PVP issue. have you not learned that yet?
Disagree. Also even if true, perfect balance gains us nothing if a bunch of players leave because the rules are inscrutable. (Source)

BLZ are pathetically incompetent when it comes to PvP balance.
Edited by Nethermore on 11/12/2012 17:27 GMT
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90 Human Warrior
19780
Typical Ghostcrawler and co........ If we can't balance it,let's give classes 58 stuns and 112 cc's.
We are slightly moving back to the crap Cataclysm was. Mediocre designers,make mediocre crap. Even Stevie Wonder could do a better job at balancing this game,maybe they should give him a call.
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90 Undead Mage
8315
11/12/2012 14:26Posted by Zenga
well if you have 2 spellreflect where one of them has a 1 min cd, makes it impossible for them to have a root break from intervene. and plz, any competent mage/caster will just put their pet on attack wich will break the ref or make cast a simple ice lance to break it. A good mage vs a good warr? the mage wins. simple as that.


You so don`t even know what you are talking about. You fail to realise that the only time you get to do dmg to warrior is when he is in df because novas have DR too you know? when the warrior is in nova and reflects you have to lance it and what do you know it also breaks roots. so next is pet nova and it only lasts that long. have you tried to pump dmg to a high resi warrior in def stance with mortal strike effect on you and second wind? outside of df and burst phase you will never ever kill a warrior with frost bolts that you can barely get off once in a month. and if the warrior is good he will time hes charge, reflect and shockwave so that hes second wind will tick him right back to the 35% before you have even possibility to lance.

when the 1 min reflect is on cd it doesn`t even matter as you also used your burst to try to kill the warrior to even force one. without burst you can not kill a warrior in def stance and running second wind.

You either have not played a mage or never faced a good warrior with anticaster spec. We don`t have shattered barrier anymore. our control is less than what it was in cata and warrior mobility is way better than what it was back then.

full resi geared warrior (and they should be that because of arena burst) will !@#$ on mage regardless of mage skill. Your best shot is to go all in with everything early and if it doesn`t work out ... too bad.
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