World of Stuncraft, why didn't Deathwing kill us.

90 Pandaren Shaman
10595
I think Fear in general is out of control. In arena's not so much but in BG's , wow. Tremor totem is awesome, but even then, wow. Psy fiend, psychic scream, blood fear, warrior roar, there are moments in a BG i am feared for 15 - 20 secs.

And have you ever tried to go into ascendance as shaman? you instantly get 3 solarbeams and 4 stuns at ur !@#.
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90 Draenei Warrior
0
12/12/2012 07:04Posted by Nakatoir
and Predatory Swiftness in combination with Cyclone, which feels virtually impossible to counter.

thank lord
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90 Worgen Warlock
10395
just fix the warrior stuns ...
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90 Human Hunter
13895
Thanks Prosít! <3


np!
12/12/2012 09:19Posted by Nakatoir
Prosít


12/12/2012 07:04Posted by Nakatoir
is


12/12/2012 07:04Posted by Nakatoir
a


12/12/2012 07:04Posted by Nakatoir
special snowflake
Edited by Prosít on 12/12/2012 09:53 GMT
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90 Human Paladin
8620
^^ +1 for the lols, hahahahahaha nice once dude!
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90 Night Elf Druid
14350
I'm a balance druid and I've recently started playing with a discipline priest.
If Cyclone will be on DR with fear it will be even more impossible to play for me :C

The problems that i have in PvP are:

- Cyclone is the shortest ranged CC, I'm the only class with a 20 yard crowd control, while everyone else has 30-40 yards, I don't think it's ok for a class to be required to waste a major glyph slot and have the pvp gloves just to be almost on par with other classes.

- I can't cast while moving like Shamans, Mages, Warlocks thus i can't keep enough pressure at times.

- I can't open a gap vs warriors because whenever you typhoon a warrior he will charge back and also get a free stun, followed by Shockwave, an AoE stun that has only 20 sec cooldown.
Disengaging won't help because he will Heroic Leap or Storm Bolt, a ranged stun that has 30sec cooldown.

Would you consider a balance druid a "balanced" pvp class when the only stun i have is Mighty Bash, that can be dodged because i don't have expertise like melees, requires me, a ranged class to run in melee range, and has 50 sec cooldown ?

Add on top of that that Solar Beam is still on a 60sec cooldown and I'm screwed.
(on a side note, i thought solar beam cooldown was that bad because it was AoE, but Shockwave, Psychic Scream, Ring of Frost, etc are a proof that's not a valid reason)
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
14630
Don't get me wrong I'm not against fear nerfs completely IF warlocks get something else to compensate. Also fear is dispellable MOST stuns aren't. Fear worked well in wrath with 0.5 second cast. It made it very hard to interupt but not impossible and still suffered from DR and there was a lot qq at the time that it was impossible to interupt so I don't think that would work either. I really think the only other option is to give us a better version of shadow fury or make it single target but last 6 seconds instead of the current 3. Then at least we'd have a chance to cast something but if blood fear ends up with a cast time then we're really shafted in pvp without something to balance it out.
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90 Human Paladin
18480
12/12/2012 11:04Posted by Meldon
- Cyclone is the shortest ranged CC, I'm the only class with a 20 yard crowd control, while everyone else has 30-40 yards, I don't think it's ok for a class to be required to waste a major glyph slot and have the pvp gloves just to be almost on par with other classes.


Hi!
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90 Pandaren Monk
7225
Stuns and blanket silences should have the same diminishing return, they serve the same purpose imo...
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90 Pandaren Shaman
21475
Warriors are out of control anyway, they have more CC then rogues ever had and they have more burst to boot.

Let me see

charge (warbringer) 3 sec stun
Intimidating shout 8sec fear
Gag order 3sec silence (it suposedly doesn't silence players, yet it does)
Shockwave 4sec stun
Disarm 8 sec disarm
Intervene frienly target +charge again 3sec stun
Hamstring+ Die by the sword (i realise that hamstring is a slow and dbts is a parry selfbuff, but for melee it might aswell be a loss of control as you cant fight unless something else happens to stand next to you) 8sec
Gag again 3sec silence
Shockwave 4sec stun

44 sec of inability to fight and thereby to selfheal

Now if i would use tremor on the fear, it'd be followed by shockwave-gag-disarm, if i would trinket disarm the hamstring+dbts part comes in play, and i'd have 4 sec control of my character before i get shockwaved again, still 28 sec of being cced in a 32 sec window. Higher effective CC uptime if said warr waits like 0.5sec with re-charging after the intervene to make you waste time trying to selfheal or start casting a cc.

This is with the asumption that the warrior has avatar and not stormbolt specced.

During this inability to fight, said warrior will spam you with attacks crits of upto 160k even tho you are wearing full pvp gear, of which only 3 parts blue, so by the time you can actually fight, you are either in execute range or your healer is close to /oom from trying to keep you alive through the mortal strike debuff.

When shamans had a snare removing + speed increase pulse on earthbind as a talent during ToGC times it got removed fast, instead of tuning it down to be shaman only, yet warriors are left with their "I Win" button since the start of the xpac.
Edited by Darkscion on 12/12/2012 11:58 GMT
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90 Human Paladin
4810
I'm curious as to why it has taken such a long time for this "revelation" to become manifest to the developers? We are months into the expansion. It is my opinion that much of this was avoidable and the fact that it went live like this, with so much OTT CC, troubles me.

It is doubly troubling that Greg (a developer I respect) piped up not so long ago saying current CC was ok.

Surely it is a simple axiom in a game like WoW: anything that causes the player to lose control of their character must be carefully rationed. Otherwise, you get to where PvP is now - a CC-fest in which players lose control of their character for extended periods of time and can (effectively) do nothing about it.

It is my opinion that not only cast times are needed for CC, but stricter (prolonged) and more broadly applicable DR's are needed too.

There is nothing worse in a MMORPG than losing control of one’s character - it should be rare, and largely preventable and with equivalent cost.
Edited by Valkrys on 12/12/2012 12:15 GMT
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90 Night Elf Druid
11880
12/12/2012 07:04Posted by Nakatoir
and Predatory Swiftness in combination with Cyclone, which feels virtually impossible to counter.

It can be dispelled and next one will last half duration, it takes time to build PSwift and you have to choose whether using it for CC or heals.
Main issue about it's when it's paired with partners' instant ccs, so, again chain CC not feral clone itself.

12/12/2012 07:04Posted by Nakatoir
but it’s the type of gameplay overhaul that can be risky to implement in the middle of an expansion cycle if the change is too drastic.

You've already locked out rdruid from arena the whole Cata, and doing the same with disci in MoP. Not fixing burst, changes need to be done ASAP. Many of us won't stay here playing a broken game till next xpac like we did last year of cata.
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90 Undead Priest
11690
12/12/2012 07:04Posted by Nakatoir
We’re looking at diminishing returns for CC right now as a possible way to help with CC in PvP combat, but it’s the type of gameplay overhaul that can be risky to implement in the middle of an expansion cycle if the change is too drastic. We are, however, taking a look right now at the DRs within particular classes, as well as special snowflakes like Cyclone. Either way, the design discussion will undoubtedly continue! ^^


<3 great ty for the reply <3
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90 Human Paladin
16510
12/12/2012 07:04Posted by Nakatoir
That said, we’re not necessarily planning on overhauling many of the spells and abilities that have been instant for a long time now, such as Hand of Justice. We’re looking at some of the big outliers that we see brought up a lot, which are instant-cast, area-of-effect abilities like Blinding Light, or Presence of Mind in combination with Ring of Frost.


what is hand of justice?:)
thou somewhat seriously i don't think i would mind if HoJ got renamed hand of justice, it would fit with our hand theme.
in Re to Blinding light; it should be noted we didn't want that piece of crap back when you thought of it,
you know back in wotlk.
and for the love of god if you make it have a cast timer give rets a special version that don't require a cast time since melee/cast don't mesh.
or maybe like several people have suggested move it into T2 so its optional (alongside repentance or in a tier devoted to Repentance (i favor a tier devoted to repentance) but just to be clear if you give BL a cast time i want a new 87 ability, preferable something new and not recycled but given the amount of thought that went into LB to begin with, i have doubts.
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90 Orc Warrior
12190
12/12/2012 11:24Posted by Gozer
at least we'd have a chance to cast something but if blood fear ends up with a cast time then we're really shafted in pvp without something to balance it out.


I think you need your head examining good sir, blood fear is quite frankly retarded.

As for warriors... shockwave definitely needs a nerf as it is still incredibly strong (15-20% dmg reduction, increase CD to 30 seconds and reduce the stun to 3 seconds). Also, remove Avatar + Reck stacking, even post-nerf it's still silly damage, particularly combined with shockwave to destroy someone in a stun.
Something to compensate the loss of gag order would be lovely as well; rather than returning the silence to heroic throw, reducing the CD on spell reflect or something would increase the skillcap and give warriors better utility against casters. Our sustained damage is reasonable, and with the latest TfB hotfix means we can't RNG global someone. With the above changes, warriors would probably remain competitive but not overpowered.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
8070
take 1 cd away from ret pallys and give them more strenght instead.
reduce power word shields absorb by atleast 30% for shadow priests.
Give elemental shaman another root but take windwalker totem away.
Take some agillity away from rogues and give them a cd instead
Add 1 more fun spell to all classes + new / better effects for the spells.
take 10% from all damage in game :p done.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
8070
blizzard is trying to help, you don`t have to complain guys :P
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
14630
12/12/2012 15:00Posted by Rédeye
at least we'd have a chance to cast something but if blood fear ends up with a cast time then we're really shafted in pvp without something to balance it out.


I think you need your head examining good sir, blood fear is quite frankly retarded.

As for warriors... shockwave definitely needs a nerf as it is still incredibly strong (15-20% dmg reduction, increase CD to 30 seconds and reduce the stun to 3 seconds). Also, remove Avatar + Reck stacking, even post-nerf it's still silly damage, particularly combined with shockwave to destroy someone in a stun.
Something to compensate the loss of gag order would be lovely as well; rather than returning the silence to heroic throw, reducing the CD on spell reflect or something would increase the skillcap and give warriors better utility against casters. Our sustained damage is reasonable, and with the latest TfB hotfix means we can't RNG global someone. With the above changes, warriors would probably remain competitive but not overpowered.


Like I can take a warriors comments seriously blood fear is "retarded"?! Yes I agree the cd on it is probably too short but hear's a shocking revelation for you it's DISPELLABLE. Your stuns are not dispellable, spell reflect already has a stupidly short CD and you have more than enough control with your 3 seconds stun from charge and 4 second stun from shockwave and oh wait you left out pummel, and just so melee classes such as reti, hunter and rogue don't feel left out of the warrior cc love train you have disarm.

Depending what pet I have up I have death coil or 3 second stun (awkward to use) or aoe fear (which does need a longer cd & shorter duration no argument there) On top of this we have regular fear 1.6 cast without haste try getting that off with a GOOD player on you and it won't happen, so yea we talent blood fear so we can peal warriors off before we're dead. The pet most destro locks are using right now is the upgraded version of the succy. This pet has a rather !@#$ knock back with no stun and charm which shares DR with fear so gg there.

Also if you bothered to read my posts you'd realise that I'm in favour of blood fear and howl of terror having longer cds and a shorter duration.

In summary can you tell me how a lock is supposed to get a warrior off them with a 1.6 second cast on fear (after using the Tier 2 talent our only real option)?
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90 Orc Warrior
12190
12/12/2012 16:12Posted by Gozer
spell reflect already has a stupidly short CD


25 seconds is a long time in PvP, and any PvPer worth their salt knows to watch for a reflect and juke it with an instant spell.

12/12/2012 16:12Posted by Gozer
3 seconds stun from charge

I've never personally specced into warbringer, it's the underdog talent in terms of mobility, which i value over an increase in stun time.

12/12/2012 16:12Posted by Gozer
4 second stun from shockwave

Refer to my previous post, I agree shockwave requires a nerf.

12/12/2012 16:12Posted by Gozer
oh wait you left out pummel

Every melee has access to this, in addition to several casters. Also, have you heard of juking/ faking casts?

Anyway, to answer your original question, blood fear is a retarded ability, because it requires no setup, or even awareness of positioning. Sure, it's dispellable, but it's on a very short CD, and in arena situations it can create a setup for a kill thanks to positioning (or at least put the enemy on the back foot), or prevent a kill on your own team. It's also a long range ability.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15125
I'm gonna tell you a true story, my friend and I were playing against a warrior and monk healer, I was enhancement shaman, and he was a priest disc, I got cc'd about 90% of the time we played that arena so I told my friend I got pissed of and went to make coffee, the time I came back, I was still cc'd and my friend jumping around like normal.

If you gonna give 2 classes, warrior and monk, so much cc that they can have me cc'd pretty much whole fight, then can't enhancement shaman atleast get a 2-3 sec stun?
Edited by Lyandria on 12/12/2012 17:17 GMT
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