Isn't it about time for purchase orders on the AH!?

90 Draenei Hunter
18895
Another way to do it would be like in Runescape. It's almost like this, but with a change:

Seller A wants to sell 10x Ghost Iron Ore at 10g per item.
Seller B wants to sell 10x Ghost Iron Ore at 20g per item.
There are no other Ghost Iron Ore on the AH

They both put up their offers.

Buyer C wants to buy 15x Ghost Iron Ore. He is willing to pay up to 20g per item.
20g*15 (300g) is charged up-front.
He can not see who has offered what and at what price. (He might be able to see the lowest price though)
Buyer C receives 15x Ghost Iron Ore in the mail together with 100g (300g -((10g*10) + (20g*5))).

Seller A receives 100g in the mail.
Seller B receives 100g and 5x Ghost Iron Ore the next day because nobody bought the rest.

Another version could be where Seller A would receives 200g instead, as the offer was set to 20g a piece.
Edited by Kasmia on 20/12/2012 14:31 GMT
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90 Draenei Paladin
15090
Buy orders would be a great addition to the AH. In general for easily available commodities, buyers would place orders at a price lower than the AH. Sellers then have the choice of posting auctions at higher prices with no guarantee, or fulfill a buy order that may be less money but is guaranteed income.
I would like this to be able to place buy orders for rare JC recipes that I am missing from my collection.
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86 Orc Warlock
7695
Seeing how that's the way sellorders/buyorders work in EVE online that idea can't be new to the developers.

Problem is: it won't make you safe from someone playing the AH (you may take this as a fact, as the market is played on EVE - ALL the time - it developped into some sort of PvP).

It's exactly like Taepsilum predicts, the moment someone puts up a buy order of 60g vs your sell order of 200g, you - the market player - would immediately put up a buy order of 60g 1c to screen that buy order vs. people selling to the highest buy order. It's exactly the same as buying up your competitors' lower sell orders, so for the market player there is no real change.

The only thing it will do is overcomplicate the interface and make things a hassle for actual buyers, as the the way to get things CHEAPLY and QUICKLY from then on is no longer hoping to find a cheap sell order -> those will all be taken away from the market by the monopolist sellers' buy order screens.

The moment the system is implemented, you have the option of
- buying things instantly but expensively, as there will not be any cheap sell orders
- buying thing slowly via buy order and hoping to have a window in which market players don't screen your order
- buying things immediately that are in such large supply that buy orders and sell orders eventually close up so much that screening buy orders is no longer profitable. Those items should ALREADY be available for a reasonable price
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90 Night Elf Hunter
11705
20/12/2012 13:41Posted by Taepsilum
I would still have a few concerns though, this would probably bring excessive complexity to the AH, because for example, if you are a seller, you are probably going to end up doing some extra work, not only you will have to check the current AH prices from other sellers (competitors), but you would also check the buyers offers against one another and against the current sellers prices in order to find the option that would benefit you the most.


Actually this system that the OP suggests is the way it is done on GW2 and frankly in practice it is not as good as it looks on paper. On the AH in that game you got two extremes: one group totally overpricing an item, and one group putting an item at the lowest possible price (equivalent of someone pricing it 1 copper each).

However one small idea should be adopted though and the ability to place a funding system onto AH. The idea for this is similar to how we got the Account Balance on our battle.net accounts and it could be an "Auction House Balance".

The money you put in there like with the Account Balance is non-refundable, and it would lend itself for people to stash away money in small amounts throughout gameplay from when they roll a new toon to when they ding 90 and then have access to cash to buy items they would otherwise not be able to buy the moment they need the cash.

Not every player is a "WoW millionaire" so this would also offer a way to give people a means to pay for goods they need and instead of risking that they keep spending hard-earned money they can keep it safe.

To prevent the theft of gold stashed in this way, two extra measures should be added: 1) every time some cash is deposited into the AH a permanent record similar to the way it is done for the Account Balance history is placed onto a player's battle.net containing which character deposited or did a purchase, and 2) each time you make a purchase above 500 gold it triggers the use of the authenticator (either physical or on phone as applicable) to authenticate the transaction. When you want to look at the league tables for the challenge modes it already triggers the opening of a browser window so you have the code to communicate the transactions already there.. Maybe though to prevent any issues, the AH balance should be limited at 100,000 gold as maximum.

I've often thought "bugger if only I had not bought such and such I would have money for this item..." and this would let me save up money for anything I wanted to buy from AH in the future. It will also be a preventative measure that will reduce those pesky "Can anyone lend me xx amount of gold for such and such item from AH as I can't afford it."-- players would, with this feature in place, be able to state: "Save up for it by depositing gold into the AH fund tab."
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
17725
The moment the system is implemented, you have the option of
- buying things instantly but expensively, as there will not be any cheap sell orders
- buying thing slowly via buy order and hoping to have a window in which market players don't screen your order
- buying things immediately that are in such large supply that buy orders and sell orders eventually close up so much that screening buy orders is no longer profitable. Those items should ALREADY be available for a reasonable price


That is not what happens at all. Reality is more like this:
- Sell order prices won't change meaningfully from what they are now, as most sellers will still be interested in getting the highest price (which leads to undercutting the competition).
- On rare items you might not have any sell orders but only buy orders - a seller that wants quick money can "cash out" on their item instantly, but yes, probably at a lower value than otherwise.
- On high volume products the buy order and sell order prices will be very close, simply allowing the same convenience for sellers that currently exists for buyers. Today if you want to buy 1000 ghost iron ore you just go to the AH and spam click for a while, while if you want to sell 1000 ghost iron ore you have to list it and wait, and you'll probably be undercut quickly. With buy orders you can instantly sell all your ore for a slightly lower price. It is better for everyone if both of these choices are available.

Additionally, on high volume items buy orders will often get "burnt through" the same way auctions are right now (you don't need to undercut every hour to sell a high volume of gems for example), so "hoping you have a window" is a meaningless concept, as even if you are outbid on your buy orders, those higher buy orders will often be filled, and you will get many recurring "windows" of sale while doing nothing yourself.
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90 Orc Warrior
15445
20/12/2012 13:41Posted by Taepsilum
I would still have a few concerns though, this would probably bring excessive complexity to the AH, because for example, if you are a seller, you are probably going to end up doing some extra work, not only you will have to check the current AH prices from other sellers (competitors), but you would also check the buyers offers against one another and against the current sellers prices in order to find the option that would benefit you the most.


just to chip in, Runescape has a great auction house, system called the great exchange.
basicly, you go to an NPC, type in what item you are after in a search box, it will auto fill with results.
When you have picked an item, you see a price on it, the market price, take your Fight Club as an example. the market price is 1337 gold for it. So the buyers / seller value is automatically put to match that market price, now the buyer / seller can either up or lower the price. By a set value or in 5% increasements.

If you wannt something to sell fast you lower your sell price under the market value, and if you wanna sell high put it at a slighly higher price.

So how does this work:
Player A: puts Fight Club on the AH, for 1337 gold
Player B: wannts to buy a Fight Club but he wants it quick, so he types in he is ready to pay up to 1500 gold for it.

now as we have a Fight Club up for 1337 gold on AH, Player B will win the club. but he will only pay 1337 gold and get 173 gold back. and everyone is happy,

market values is calculated after the items sells. its kinda hard to explain it, should be some great guides on how runescapes grand exchange works some place on the web.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8155
20/12/2012 14:32Posted by Nefaria
It's exactly like Taepsilum predicts, the moment someone puts up a buy order of 60g vs your sell order of 200g, you - the market player - would immediately put up a buy order of 60g 1c to screen that buy order vs. people selling to the highest buy order. It's exactly the same as buying up your competitors' lower sell orders, so for the market player there is no real change.


I don't see this as being a problem.

All im suggesting is the system we have right now but with Purchase Orders too.

Lets say someone wants to manipulate the Ghost Iron Ore market.

The Purchase Orders are paid for up-front and would have minimum time limits such as 24hrs, meaning that a manipulator would have to set-aside a large amount of gold to try and manipulate the Purchase Order market... And because their is a minimum time limit their order would most likely be fulfilled meaning they would be forced to go through with the transaction.

Lets say someone legitimately places a Purchase Order for 10 stacks at 60g each, then a manipulator puts in an order for 10 stacks at 61g each...

If I'm the seller and I'm a happy farmer I have such a supply of Ghost Iron Ore that I can fulfill a lot more than just both those orders...

This means manipulators can play silly b@ll@<!$ all day long with the Purchase Order system but I can also fulfill them all day long with my supply (something manipulators dont always have). So why would it matter if they tried? Eventually I'd fulfill all the legitimate orders too and I'd be able to earn gold doing it.

As the current AH system stands manipulators force genuine players out of making the gold they need/want to enjoy the game which is bad for the whole community!
Edited by Daftmonk on 20/12/2012 15:14 GMT
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90 Gnome Warlock
6630
I don't think it should be a separate tab; I think commodities should be done with a different interface, showing "sell" and "buy" price, and people can offer on either side... The interface can change to support it, not just "buy auctions" as well.

It might also be something that can go cross-realm... a limited set of commodities could be in the commodity market, and this would be per battle-group (or whatever). Normal auctions would still exist for most stuff.

Edit: The "undercut" thing happens on selling already, "overcutting" actually draws the market to a central price... people trying to buy can either "overcut" or jsut go ahead and take the best sell order. Convenience now, or best price for extra effort (repeatedly overcutting).
Edited by Revulse on 20/12/2012 15:07 GMT
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90 Dwarf Hunter
14575
Personally I must say I kind of like this idea, not sure if it would be that easy to implement tough.
Could be something like a simple WTB AH tab, and I supposed a timer would need to be associated with the purchase order as well.

But to be honest I think we would see some sort of reversed undercutting between buyers.
Let’s imagine for example:

Player A: Wants to buy 10 Fight Club at 1337 gold each.
Player B: Sees Player A’s offer and decides he wants to buy 10 Fight Club at 1338 each.
Player C: See’s all the available options and sells to the “highest bidder” = Player B.

I would still have a few concerns though, this would probably bring excessive complexity to the AH, because for example, if you are a seller, you are probably going to end up doing some extra work, not only you will have to check the current AH prices from other sellers (competitors), but you would also check the buyers offers against one another and against the current sellers prices in order to find the option that would benefit you the most.

Buyers would see a similar competition to sellers when they face constant undercutting. This would probably create a certain frustration because when you are a buyer, chances are you need those items more urgently than when you are a seller, since sellers only get gold.
So the sense of urgency from buyers would probably work against the success of this implementation.

Still I think this is a good idea and I’m probably exaggerating a bit when I speculate about the possible consequences. We just need to make sure that ideas are sound before we spend resources on them, we need to be sure that not only they would work, but that enough players would actually benefit and experience better gameplay because of it.
I’ll share the suggestion with the devs, but I suspect this isn’t something new to them, we’ll see.


The idea is great, it would work well for sure, so looking for bad sides is blizzlike. This works well in other games so... This kind of undercuting is less harm then what is now. Ppl will buy how much they need, so if i farm 1000 stacks of herbs, i will sell them to 10, 20, 50 players, couse no1 needs 1k stacks of herbs at once. But couse its a great idea I dont believe it will be implemented. Better dont touch something what is broken or could be improved and fix what is not broken at all. Im pretty sure in game chat need some urgent fixes again...


We just need to make sure that ideas are sound before we spend resources on them, we need to be sure that not only they would work, but that enough players would actually benefit and experience better gameplay because of it.


And thats a serious bs... crz/bmah/bots/dailys... stop treat us like an idiots please, we are not blind, you wasted resources for fixing chat!...

+1 for thread
Edited by Thoragim on 20/12/2012 15:29 GMT
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90 Gnome Priest
11355
Yes this system is used in EvE-Online.

But you must not forget that their market is unlinked and 'every' station has its own local buyers/sellers.

When you fly to next constellation the prices are different. Kinda like how some goods are cheaper in another country.

Which allows you to sell your stuff more expensive if you spend time flying.

Also best prices are mostly at dangerous solarsystems where people can be attacked and loose their ship in the process.

Wow doesnt have these features so even its still a nice idea I wonder if wow really needs such a system. Not to forget eve is a sandbox mmo where wow is a themepark mmo

You could ofcourse unlink all auction houses and promote moving about the game and not everyone stuck at their mayor city.
But what does this prevent people from camp an alt at each auction house and just mail stuff around?

Good idea and if tested well this could be possible

So I do give my support for this +1
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85 Human Paladin
7155
20/12/2012 13:47Posted by Buckee
I'd love to see a work-order program for Craftables, I find it more annoying to not be able to get Craftables than risking some undercut raw mats.
Well, what they could have is a Production system, with work orders, running into sales order/ATP. Hooked into purchasing for raw materials, feeding all the numbers into the ledgers. Then we could have WoW auditors check your year end numbers for consistency! Don't get me started about the tax implications!
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90 Dwarf Hunter
14575
Yes this system is used in EvE-Online.

But you must not forget that their market is unlinked and 'every' station has its own local buyers/sellers.

When you fly to next constellation the prices are different. Kinda like how some goods are cheaper in another country.

Which allows you to sell your stuff more expensive if you spend time flying.

Also best prices are mostly at dangerous solarsystems where people can be attacked and loose their ship in the process.

Wow doesnt have these features so even its still a nice idea I wonder if wow really needs such a system. Not to forget eve is a sandbox mmo where wow is a themepark mmo

You could ofcourse unlink all auction houses and promote moving about the game and not everyone stuck at their mayor city.
But what does this prevent people from camp an alt at each auction house and just mail stuff around?

Good idea and if tested well this could be possible

So I do give my support for this +1


GW2 is using such system and it works fine.
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90 Troll Warlock
13830
This defiantly has potential. Hopefully they will look into it.
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90 Undead Mage
12855
This is a brilliant idea. This has the potential to open up the market for players that don't have the time, or frankly don't care enough about the AH, that actually want to play the game rather than just playing the AH.
Yeah you will get undercutting and "over-cutting" but who really cares, we get undercutting now, so how is having another option to sell/buy a bad thing.
I hope this gets some serious thought, would love to see it in game.
+1
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Personally I must say I kind of like this idea, not sure if it would be that easy to implement tough.
Could be something like a simple WTB AH tab, and I supposed a timer would need to be associated with the purchase order as well.

But to be honest I think we would see some sort of reversed undercutting between buyers.
Let’s imagine for example:

Player A: Wants to buy 10 Fight Club at 1337 gold each.
Player B: Sees Player A’s offer and decides he wants to buy 10 Fight Club at 1338 each.
Player C: See’s all the available options and sells to the “highest bidder” = Player B.

I would still have a few concerns though, this would probably bring excessive complexity to the AH, because for example, if you are a seller, you are probably going to end up doing some extra work, not only you will have to check the current AH prices from other sellers (competitors), but you would also check the buyers offers against one another and against the current sellers prices in order to find the option that would benefit you the most.

Buyers would see a similar competition to sellers when they face constant undercutting. This would probably create a certain frustration because when you are a buyer, chances are you need those items more urgently than when you are a seller, since sellers only get gold.
So the sense of urgency from buyers would probably work against the success of this implementation.

Still I think this is a good idea and I’m probably exaggerating a bit when I speculate about the possible consequences. We just need to make sure that ideas are sound before we spend resources on them, we need to be sure that not only they would work, but that enough players would actually benefit and experience better gameplay because of it.
I’ll share the suggestion with the devs, but I suspect this isn’t something new to them, we’ll see.


To simplify it, it could work similar to RuneScape's Grand Exchange. Sellers put stuff up(just like on WoW) and buyers put their orders up, the system automatically sells it and mails excess gold back to the buying player(if a seller puts stuff up for a lower price than what the buyer wanted to pay). Then the only problem would be that the "normal" AH-browser would be rather redundant.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8155
Thanks again guys, please keep the feedback coming :D

EDIT: Even if its just a +1 to show your support for the idea.
Edited by Daftmonk on 20/12/2012 18:57 GMT
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1 Undead Rogue
0
+1
sounds like a great idea
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88 Pandaren Monk
9295
Having the option to set Buy orders is a necessity for an efficient market.

To be fair, financial markets work in that exact same way.!

There are other fairly common suggestions that would greatly help :

* Increase the length of orders from max. 48 hours to max 1 week. This will help even out prices over long periods of time.

* Prevent spammability by having an interface that lets you first identify the item you are looking for through a search engine, and which then shows you Buy and Sell orders, sorted by price.

* Make the Auction House a Cross-Realm feature.

* Remove the deposit. The only purpose it serves is to prevent spam. Spam should be prevented by an efficient UI, not by an arbitrary cost per item.
Edited by Tarkamul on 20/12/2012 19:04 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12160
A copy of Runescape's Grand Exchange, which is indeed the very best solution by being connected to every realm.
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