Charms and repetition of content

90 Human Hunter
10385

If you are arguing that it's bad design that you're expected to do damage to defeat your foes (which is what you do on daily quests and scenarios) then I have the feeling we're just disagreeing on a fundamental level: what makes this game an (MMO)RPG.


Woha, hold on to your horses there. You take it too far. :) Said healer who do not enjoy dpsing could easily team up with a friend to do these dailies. But other solutions which more or less require dpsing?
Like scenarios, they could have been dynamically adjusted, by design, after what kind of roles enters the scenario right? Ie. less mobs that might do more damage (requires healing and less dps if you see my point).

In the end, the holy triangle of a mmo like WoW has 3 roles, dps/healing/tanking. Not everyone enjoys all of them. I am just saying that there are designsolutions out there which could help them. (Oh, and i play all roles and enjoy them.)

Ps.
Make a hunter tankspec! :p
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8385
20/12/2012 16:51Posted by Doomsinger
I'm curious; how many RPGs (or MMORPGs...) have you played where you never once had to kill something? I'll be honest and say that I quite suspect the number will be zero.


I did play 4.

World of Warcraft, Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Cataclysm. Sure I did kill things wilst I level up, but for 90% of the time (and 100% of the time at max level) I did heal in dungeons and raids and was still able to progress with my char.

20/12/2012 16:51Posted by Doomsinger
With the greatest of respect, if you don't enjoy that kind of gameplay, then you really picked the wrong genre of game to play.


That message is coming through loud and clear xD
Edited by Amrissa on 20/12/2012 17:03 GMT
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100 Worgen Warlock
9080
It's a shame that with my priest - if I want to dps well, then I have to reforge my gear to a different stat priority from my standard holy spec.... so if you're going to insist on making us do those dreaded dailies and run a dps spec, at least allow us to do so with common stat priorities to make the best of an off-spec.

I'd just like to say that the skyfire dailies are exactly how I like my dailies to be, the mines are aweful over-crowded nightmares.

My perception of the current model is that it's been designed with not enough content and that to overcome that you've become over reliant on rep/dailies to help keep traffic running at a proverbial snails pace that you controlled rather than us - everything in moderation is how I belive things should be.

It's a case of "I can't see the woods because the trees are in the way".

The 'simple' fix to all these queries is not to remove the content that 'apparently' some people enjoy - rather re-instate some of the older ways of doing things that can co-exist with the alternative options.

By that I suggest the following:

Extend charm drops and rep gain to include dungeons (3 charms per boss seems a good number)
Re-instate flight scrolls for alts once a main has hit 90.
Bring back cauldrons for raids
Bring back mass summon
Decrease the cost of VP goods by 35%
Re-instate the 1500VP weekly cap
Abolish the penalty for running random heroics
Increase VP reward to 75 per instance.
Nerf HP on all the 88-90 mobs by 20% to enable a more reasonable experience of the daily grind.

The general goal being to mix the best of both worlds to make one glorious path of light for one and all :)
Edited by Korchinks on 20/12/2012 17:19 GMT
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90 Tauren Druid
12160
20/12/2012 17:05Posted by Korchinks
It's a shame that with my priest - if I want to dps well, then I have to reforge my gear to a different stat priority from my standard holy spec.... so if you're going to insist on making us do those dreaded dailies and run a dps spec, at least allow us to do so with common stat priorities to make the best of an off-spec.

You really don't need to optimise for DPS in order to do dailies, or even scenarios. Just switch specs and your DPS will be "adequate", IMO.

Similarly, for the poster who really only wants to heal, what about grouping up with a squishy mage for dailies? With a dedicated healer, many of the GL/Klaxxi quests, and definitely the new Krasarang mines quests, will be a whole lot easier/quicker. It's an MMO, so grouping for dailies is perfectly acceptable and generally better all round.

EDIT: Fixed typo.
Edited by Limjo on 20/12/2012 17:32 GMT
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MVP
100 Human Death Knight
10845
20/12/2012 16:59Posted by Amrissa
World of Warcraft, Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Cataclysm. Sure I did kill things wilst I level up, but for 90% of the time (and 100% of the time at max level) I did heal in dungeons and raids and was still able to progress with my char.

You can still heal in dungeons and raids, and you can still progress with your character.

"I don't enjoy X, so it should be completely removed from the game for everyone" isn't a compelling argument.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8385
20/12/2012 17:16Posted by Doomsinger
"I don't enjoy X, so it should be completely removed from the game for everyone" isn't a compelling argument.


Right. Show me were I said this. This is a straw man argument.

This is what I did say - please do not put words in to my mouth.

"I do have (despite my QQing) NP with daily quests. I did try them with a war lock and hunter alt and they were OK, though I have no wish to play DPS role in dungeon or raid.

All I do wish for is a choice."
Edited by Amrissa on 20/12/2012 17:25 GMT
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MVP - WoW, Diablo III
97 Draenei Shaman
9070
I'm always somewhat perplexed when people use the word mandatory. Sure, I get the point that if you want to be a top notch hardcore raider, you have to work for it... should that be a surprise? It doesn't make dailies and charms mandatory, not even necessary, it makes doing these things "ideal" if you want to be the best you can be in the quickest time possible. THAT is a choice that you make if you choose that path. Being the best means working for it, making sacrifices, doing things you may not want to do but that in the end, means you reach those dizzy heights and YOU have achieved it.

Likewise with players that just want to heal, thats a more than acceptable choice and granted, it causes a hurdle when you have dailies with high HP mobs and you have low DPS output... however thats a hurdle, not a roadblock. Group with a friend or a guildie or someone else you see running around on their own. Not only do you get your dailies done, you get them done in less time and therefore it's less of a time sacrifice and less of a "grind" feel.

I will admit that there was a time I was getting a bit annoyed at the time I spent doing dailies on various chars, but I simply started doing the dailies with others, made it far more fun and in far less time.. and I get my valor points/charms... problem solved.
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90 Human Paladin
6295
No offense meant, but that is quite a arrogant solution. What if said person does not enjoy dpsing? So they are forced to make a dpsspec to do the content? Thats smells more like bad design.


If you are arguing that it's bad design that you're expected to do damage to defeat your foes (which is what you do on daily quests and scenarios) then I have the feeling we're just disagreeing on a fundamental level: what makes this game an (MMO)RPG.

You can't heal your foes to death (at least not yet), so if you don't want to DPS but want to do dailies, nothing short of divine intervention will help you solve your case. It really sounds like we just disagree on the most fundamental level: how the game should be played on its most basic level.

In any case, that discussion would derail the thread.


The real question here is - If endgame daily content is only beeing created for 1 role of 3 in the game... what effect does it have on the overall role balance in the game? Are there too many tanks in LFD ? Are there lines of Healers waiting in LFR ? No... and you wonder why?- When the endgame every day grind content is focused for DPS?

Blizzard talked about giving ppl more variety on how to do things in MOP. Thats simply not the case. The game is locked down even more. There is only one way to gain those coins. And when that evolves around DPS only - then its a very bad game design.

The fundementals of good MMORPG is balance. So far this MOP expansion is making overall role balance of the game worse than ever. And to see a blue come on forums like he knows what MMORPG fundementals are all about when ppl are waiting 30 -60+ mins in Qs all over the game... is for me not acceptable.

Healers are lacking in LFR... give them lesser coins in each bag to shorten the Qs. And some extra gold. Forcing them to go spend time per week doing totally and utterly meaningless daily content in sub par dps gear is just a disgrace.

And now... back to waiting in LFR Qs as DPS for 60+ mins cause playing it as healer does not reward me at all (already got better) - and my dps gear can still be upgraded for doing daily grinds and Brawlers guild.

Basics of MMORPG you know ... Waiting in Q.
Edited by Anon on 20/12/2012 17:55 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8385
The real question here is - If endgame daily content is only beeing created for 1 role of 3 in the game... what effect does it have on the overall role balance in the game. Are there to many tanks in LFD ? Are there lines of Healers waiting in LFR ? No... and you wonder why?- When the endgame every day grind content is focused for DPS.


I wish I can up vote this more than 9000 times.
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MVP
100 Human Death Knight
10845
20/12/2012 17:20Posted by Amrissa
Right. Show me were I said this. This is a straw man argument.

No it wasn't. I thought beginning a new paragraph would be clear, but perhaps I should have quoted someone else or said that before quoting what you said. Oh well, at least I learned something today.

tl;dr: That wasn't aimed at you. Sorry.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8385
tl;dr: That wasn't aimed at you. Sorry.


kk np =)
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100 Worgen Warlock
9080
I stand by my suggestions for a more balanced approach to the rep/VP grinds... who's with me?
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90 Human Paladin
6295
20/12/2012 17:56Posted by Korchinks
I stand by my suggestions for a more balanced approach to the rep/VP grinds... who's with me?


We are not even starting to see the real issues that will come up later in this expansion if Blizzard goes on like this. With the valor upgrade ilvl system - we will see so many ppl only play as dps and never touch other roles in the game. Even ppl that want to multispec are doomed to be sub-par in every department. And that includes main spec when they use valor to buy offspec gear.

Key element of the game right now is shortening the ever lengthening Qs all over the game. Best way to do that now is to give out rewards and those coins would be a good way to get healers Qing up in LFR instead of forcing them to do dailies in bad DPS gear.

But that does not solve the big issue of the game. The big issue right now is that MOP is very unfriendly to alts and just mean and unfair to multirole characters. That needs to be fixed asap.
Edited by Anon on 20/12/2012 18:06 GMT
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90 Worgen Hunter
10515
Bloody Christmas making me go soft...

Ok, Amrissa, instead of my less-than-polite response earlier, here's what I can suggest for you instead of respeccing:

1. Get a dailies partner (or group). Then you can finish up the daily rounds quickly and effectively.
2. Save some of the dps gear that drops here and there. Just keep the spare set around for when you need to do dailies solo.
3. Focus on the non-kill dailies (gathering, healing wounded things, etc). For example, I made exalted with 3-4 rounds of dailies for the dragon guys , the rest was collecting Onyx Eggs (with alt it was 1 and a half round, with 6 eggs to spare at the end). It will take a lot longer to get rep in most cases, but you won't have to respecc.
4. Find alternative methods of progression. There's already people who make it to 90 and beyond by never killing anything (you might have read about some of them), just by picking alternative routes. In your case that would obviously be HC's, LFR and so on. You can still heal in scenarios too. It might not be needed, but it can really speed things up when the dps can pull everything without dying.

In short, just try to be imaginative about things. You are, after all, playing a game that revolves mainly around killing things, so if you choose to go a different route you should expect obstacles.

GL and Merry X-Mas
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90 Worgen Hunter
17600
Amount of Charms currently in my currency tab?
802.

Amount of daily quests I've done this week that awards Charms?
4.
That one daily from the Tillers that makes you grow one crop. Monday, tuesday, wednesday and thursday.

It's impossible not to play devil's advocate here, because what dedication do I give to my dailies? None! I'm too busy with my Ogri'la, Frenzyheart and Kalu'ak reputation to bother stockpiling even more Charms. I'm stuffed until the next patch.

Want your valor capped? One random HC, 2/3 LFR runs on wednesday and do some normal raiding with your guild and you're good to go! No dailies required!
Want charms and don't need the valor in such a hurry? Sucks to be you, time for "WERLD OF DEHLICROFT"! Or in patch 5.2, "mandatory Pokémon".
The people who burned all of the dailies early have a good bunch of charms, the rest are now "stuck" doing "mandatory" dailies for their normal raiding.

It's hard to make choice in the Charms department, especially now when we have the choice of playing a minigame instead of the treadmill, it still gets slapped and shun upon.
Dungeons and BGs is the wrong way of tackling this, and the rep problem. Scenarios will give rep rewards, and I hope it isn't absurd like 1-2k per run, because that would render daily quests useless, trading pest for cholera.

Charms are a good mechanic in my opinion, although a bit controversial because of the dailies, and the interconnection between the two.
Example, the Golden Lotus and Klaxxi dailies gives a hefty amount of charms, but they are also the most mind-numbing and boring dailies of them all.
Now I've been too busy getting rep for other factions at the moment (plus 8-4 work) so I havn't done any Operation: Shieldwall, but I've peeked at the story-driven content that it delivers later on, and THAT should award charms. More of them than usual.

Story-driven events are fantastic in my opinion, aslong as they aren't super frustrating or boring. Having those as milestones for certain rep milestones would motivate players (especially lore-geeks) to do the dailies to see what the fuss is about. And they should award a good chunk of charms, maybe 30+ I'd say.
The Warlord Gurthan daily at the Klaxxi is amazing, and an example of what could be done too.
Just like dailies feel like a competition with the other players, you are demotivated from teaming up. But by encouraging group play, maybe by tougher mobs, Pandaria rares *2, etc., people would rather team up.

These mobs would scale their attacks with %hp and not by a set amount of damage, to prevent stupidly outgearing the content too fast.

So, tougher dailies that requires teamwork, more epic dailies and less treadmill-grind.
My feedback of the day.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
That is exactly what I am saying, I wish to go dungeons, raids. You say more content is available out side of these. Where?

Scenario - no healer is need.
Daily Quests - impossible as healer.

Tell me how you wish me to play your game please?


[quote]You have two talent specializations. Why not have one for DPS? Even if it's a different healing spec, do you really need it at every single moment of the day? It's your choice to go with two healing specs, and that obviously comes with a downside (just as a tank that decides to go with two different tanking specs and argues his DPS is low on that content).


Uhm I might be missing something here, but aren't proving grounds going to provide exactly that which this guy is asking for...? Not being forced to go dps to do relaxed content, such as dailies and scenarios. And why couldn't those proving grounds provide us with lesser charms and a bit of valor aswell then?
I see nothing against it really. The amount of variety of content coming into mop is just really endless, yet we are tunneled into some options which are the only viable ones. Like scenario's for instances are completely useless, except for achievements.

Proceeding to argue that because you run with a dual healing spec there's no content you can do is not going to get you very far because the answer is simple: use a DPS spec for that content.
Edited by Humewami on 20/12/2012 18:07 GMT
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90 Human Paladin
6295
Its interesting to see DPS specs come here and defend this daily quest system. Not realising at all that many healers are still doing those dailies in 463 gear. Or if they did -they dont realise how gimped those players are in that low ilvl gear..

And if they realise how gimped those players are... those dps are just proofing how little they care about solo content for other specs in the game... as long as they can 1 or 2 shot every mob.

Giving out advice to healers and saying them just to go group up when dps classes are doing 2-5 times the dmg sounds fun... for the dps. And thats why most ppl play dps in WOW. And thats why we have 1 hour long Qs in LFR waiting for healers.
Edited by Anon on 20/12/2012 18:13 GMT
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90 Undead Mage
14320
19/12/2012 16:51Posted by Draztal
charm are mandatory if you want to be up to par, if you're lucky you get 3 extra items per week


They aren't mandatory though. You can raid just fine without them. Yes, you won't gear as fast (assuming you get items from them relatively often), but it's not going to impact your character in a negative way, other than *perhaps* missing an upgrade (since you don't even have the guarantee you'll get one through the charms).


relatively often?:O wasted more than 12 coins on sha and lei -shi(on normal & lfr) so far and got only gold out of it... you consider that often?:O
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90 Worgen Hunter
10515
Its interesting to see DPS specs come here and defend this daily quest system. Not realising at all that many healers are still doing those dailies in 463 gear. Or if they did -they dont realise how gimped those players are. And if they realise they are gimped... those dps are just proofing how little they care about solo content for other specs in the game... as long as they can 1 or 2 shot every mob.


Well, that's quite a lot of assuming you're doing there.. Like assuming I don't have a tank specced pala (which I did dailies perfectly fine with as healer when there was no dual specc), or a druid going resto when I cba to finish levelling him, and assuming none of the others posting on dps characters have healer alt or mains.

Giving out advice to healers and saying them just to go group up when dps classes are doing 2-5 times the dmg sounds fun... for the dps. And thats why most ppl play dps in WOW. And thats why we have 1 hour long Qs in LFR waiting for healers.


1: The argument is based on someone who doesn't find dps fun, but likes healing. So how is being the healer in a group bad there..?
2: Most people play dps because most people like dps (or the simple roles, to be blunt).
3: I've yet to have had a dungeon queue (as dps) longer than 15 mins this expansion.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8610
Charms.. they've all given me gold the last 3 weeks so i'm starting to care less and less about those.
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