Charms and repetition of content

90 Human Paladin
0
20/12/2012 19:25Posted by Shammoz
Overrun with healers ? Since when has WOW been overrun with healers?


But wow WOULD be overrun with healers if they dont need to do dailies etc to gain their charms and VP, everyone would spec into healing or roll one (as I said last time).

Also, if your suggestion would to be taken seriously, how does the game determine a "Healer" and therefore not require them to complete the same tasks? There is no class in the game that is healer ONLY, so how would the game deal with players that do have dual spec and decide that they are a healer and exempt from the same tasks that everyone else has to do?


You understand how the LFD system works ? You understand how the reward system works for it ? When Qs become to long those roles that are needed get extra rewards. Im talking about the same system in LFR so that healers have the option per day to go HELP others out if Qs are too long in LFR instead of beeing forced to do dailies in blue dps gear. Is this hard to understand? Never did I say that every healer should always get lesser charms in LFR. It should always be based on need to shorten the Qs. Read before you start to argue....

So if a healer gets rewareded with lesser charms, gold and even rep for helping out in LFR to shorten Qs.... you think every dps would just quit doing dailies and roll a healer class ? Really? I do get it that some DPS would go mad cause then healers wouldn't have to suffer extra in dailies.... but I hope your not one of them.

But it sounds to me like you consider dailies to be work... when it should be fun. It sure is just work and no fun for healing players in healing gear or blue DPS gear.. But its not for dps classes in 480+ avr gear... Thats why we now have much bigger numbers of DPS players in this game. THATS the real worry - Not the worry about to many healers beeing around if they were rewarded with lesser charms for helping out in LFR....
Edited by Anon on 20/12/2012 19:48 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10745
20/12/2012 14:47Posted by Draztal
So, basically, you want to go back to the Cataclysm model (where dungeons are the source of rewards for several avenues). The very same model the developers have said several times they would like to move away from.


Hell yeha son. took you a while to figure it out
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MVP - WoW, Diablo III
90 Draenei Shaman
8720
20/12/2012 19:32Posted by Anon
Read before you start to argue....


Not arguing, debating.. there's a big difference.

20/12/2012 19:32Posted by Anon
But it sounds to me like you consider dailies to be work..


Then you have not read all my posts in this thread.
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90 Worgen Hunter
10515


OK ty I was not even aware of these *goes to read wowhead*

happy winter veil !!


Well, the big downside of those dailies for Golden Lotus (and possibly Shado-Pan, haven't bothered with them yet), is that you have to complete all the quests in one area before you can go to the next.
But the non-kill dailies you can do at the first area (stairs) are
-Stop the behemoth (both the ritual and killing it). Just being next to it when someone else kills it or tapping it once gives you credit.
-Killing the dragons. Again, a single tap or dot gives you kill credit on them.
-Healing the wounded lying around the bombing area
-Blowing up cannons (no need to dismount)
-Stopping the lightning rod things
-Saving the souls of dead pandas (no need to dismount)
-Saving pandas being tortured (just landing close enough to aggro the mobs causes them to drop their victims, and you can fly off)
-Rescuing the scout.

Might be more, but can't remember atm.

As for the Onyx Eggs, they are actually really simple to grind. Afaik, they have somewhere between 20-45 min respawn rate, and I've found as many as 8 in one run (545 rep per egg, which doubles if you have the revered bonus). You'll find them all around the mountains on the little island. They're either
-on top of the peaks or on one of the small ledges
-on the small peaks standing in the ocean (the all green ones)
-there's 1 in the bones behind the tiger matriarch
-1 in the stone thingy next to the lizard boss
-1 is right behind the pillar on the hill (with a dragon nest) that right by the opening into the beach with all the lizards
-1 is on the big pillar closest to the hut
-1 is right between the two large western/southern peaks (there's just a small passage between them)

Those are the ones I can remember right now. They're fairly obvious black eggs, so easy to spot when you're looking for them.

Here's a nice vid showing most of the spawn points: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b-CRRXgYmg
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90 Human Paladin
0
Read before you start to argue....


Not arguing, debating.. there's a big difference.

But it sounds to me like you consider dailies to be work..


Then you have not read all my posts in this thread.


No your not debating - Your arguing. Picking out one sentance to keep your point going when you no longer can admit that there was some sense in what the poster was saying.... Thats arguing. And greens should not take part in childish arguments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument
In logic and philosophy, an argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons or evidence for accepting a particular conclusion.

You say everyone should have to do dailies - even those roles that are not efficent doing that content in a) their main role b) their offspec role. There is no debate in that is there ? You want it to be that way and is arguing with everyone that is saying it doesn't have to be that way.
Edited by Anon on 20/12/2012 19:59 GMT
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MVP - WoW, Diablo III
90 Draenei Shaman
8720


Not arguing, debating.. there's a big difference.



Then you have not read all my posts in this thread.


No your not debating - Your arguing. Picking out one sentance to keep your point going when you no longer can admit that there was some sense in what the poster was saying.... Thats arguing. And greens should not take part in childish arguments.


So now we are arguing over whether we are arguing? I will leave you to your deluded misconceptions before this thread derails any further than it already has.

/StepsOut
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90 Human Paladin
0


No your not debating - Your arguing. Picking out one sentance to keep your point going when you no longer can admit that there was some sense in what the poster was saying.... Thats arguing. And greens should not take part in childish arguments.


So now we are arguing over whether we are arguing? I will leave you to your deluded misconceptions before this thread derails any further than it already has.

/StepsOut


Good - then those posters that have pointed out that there should be other ways of getting lesser charms than just doing dailies can come here and make their point without a green arguing and telling them they are wrong in their opinions.
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90 Worgen Hunter
10515
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument
In logic and philosophy, an argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons or evidence for accepting a particular conclusion.


Edit: Actually, let me condens that to make the point clearer:

de·bate
/diˈbāt/
Noun
A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.
Verb
Argue about (a subject), esp. in a formal manner.
Synonyms
noun. discussion - dispute - argument - disputation
verb. dispute - discuss - argue - deliberate - canvass
Edited by Kergosh on 20/12/2012 20:09 GMT
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90 Orc Rogue
13230
The 'simple' fix to all these queries is not to remove the content that 'apparently' some people enjoy - rather re-instate some of the older ways of doing things that can co-exist with the alternative options.

By that I suggest the following:

Extend charm drops and rep gain to include dungeons (3 charms per boss seems a good number)
Re-instate flight scrolls for alts once a main has hit 90.
Bring back cauldrons for raids
Bring back mass summon
Decrease the cost of VP goods by 35%
Re-instate the 1500VP weekly cap
Abolish the penalty for running random heroics
Increase VP reward to 75 per instance.
Nerf HP on all the 88-90 mobs by 20% to enable a more reasonable experience of the daily grind.


this is somthing devolpers should look into it. I really miss Mass summn
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90 Human Paladin
0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument
In logic and philosophy, an argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons or evidence for accepting a particular conclusion.


"Debate is a method of interactive and representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than deductive reasoning, which only examines whether a conclusion is a consequence of premisses, and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn't the case, or rhetoric which is a technique of persuasion. Though logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are important elements of the art of persuasion, in debating, one side often prevails over the other side by presenting a superior "context" and/or framework of the issue, which is far more subtle and strategic. The outcome of a debate depends upon consensus or some formal way of reaching a resolution, rather than the objective facts as such."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate


Exactly - And thats why a green and a dps role saying everyone should have to do dailies to get lesser charms (even when the daily quest content is not designed to be done in efficient way for other roles) makes it just an argument. Not a debate.
Edited by Anon on 20/12/2012 20:10 GMT
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90 Worgen Hunter
10515


Exacltly - And thats why a green and a dps role saying everyone should have to do dailies to get lesser charms (even when the content is not designed to be done in efficent ways for other roles) makes it just an argument. Not a debate.


Read the edit.

And edit aagain:

ar·gu·ment
/ˈärgyəmənt/
Noun

An exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one: "I've had an argument with my father".
A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.

Synonyms
dispute - discussion - controversy - debate - disputation
Edited by Kergosh on 20/12/2012 20:12 GMT
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90 Human Paladin
0


Exacltly - And thats why a green and a dps role saying everyone should have to do dailies to get lesser charms (even when the content is not designed to be done in efficent ways for other roles) makes it just an argument. Not a debate.


Read the edit.


Lets stay on topic shall we. DPS arguing that every healer should have to do dailies in less efficent way than dps classes is not a real solution to a problem.

Ive mentioned few real solutions here. I hope BLizzard will read them and take them into consideration.
Edited by Anon on 20/12/2012 20:16 GMT
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90 Worgen Hunter
10515


Lets stay on topic shall we. DPS arguing that every healer should have to do dailies in less efficent way than dps classes is not a real solution to a problem.

Ive mentioned few real solutions here. I hope BLizzard will read them and take them into consideration.


By all means. With that in mind, we could start by you responding to my previous counter to one of your posts (page 7, I think..).
This part in particular:

1: The argument is based on someone who doesn't find dps fun, but likes healing. So how is being the healer in a group bad there..?
2: Most people play dps because most people like dps (or the simple roles, to be blunt).
3: I've yet to have had a dungeon queue (as dps) longer than 15 mins this expansion.


If you already responded and I missed it, I'll check your reply. Either way, I'm off to get a smoothie (Don't judge me!) and will reply when I return.
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90 Orc Death Knight
6750
Why can't you just add lesser charms or charms into daily dungeons and LFR? Let them drop from bosses (last ones in HC dungeons), this way anti-daily players doesn't feel required to do them dailies, as you pointed out. Blizzard always seems to favor one crowd then move on to another, when you start building on something you don't always need to start from scratch.. Like most of your devs at Blizzard does and do, why can't you just simply improve an old idea into something new and refreshing?

I have over 500 lesser charms on my DK atm, and I feel finally I'm not required to do dailes for another 5-6 weeks, I sometimes do shado'pan dailies when I have time only for lesser charms so I don't get 'dry' of charms. I feel required to get them, because I have more chance of improving my gear faster this week, rather then waiting for next week.

You also have another problem which has been pointed out here, the rep gathering.. I LOVED the tabard, I could grind whenever I felt like it while I was getting JP and VP for buying better gear. This was so awesome, I don't know why you felt *needed* to remove this, since you can improve the idea not just scrap it and say "This sucks, we better scrap the tabard" -- Was this really the BEST feedback you've ever read in your life or something? I know you mostly have votes regarding new design ideas, but something isn't right about scrapping the tabard just yet..

During the start of MoP, I was having a blast.. until I figured out the only way for me to gain rep was through dailies, and I HATE dailies. Charms were and is still only "gain able" through dailies as a "reward".. Yes blizzard, you still have design flaws after so many years in the MMO business, it's sad. Don't get me wrong, I still love this game.
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90 Human Paladin
0


Lets stay on topic shall we. DPS arguing that every healer should have to do dailies in less efficent way than dps classes is not a real solution to a problem.

Ive mentioned few real solutions here. I hope BLizzard will read them and take them into consideration.


By all means. With that in mind, we could start by you responding to my previous counter to one of your posts (page 7, I think..).
This part in particular:

1: The argument is based on someone who doesn't find dps fun, but likes healing. So how is being the healer in a group bad there..?
2: Most people play dps because most people like dps (or the simple roles, to be blunt).
3: I've yet to have had a dungeon queue (as dps) longer than 15 mins this expansion.


If you already responded and I missed it, I'll check your reply. Either way, I'm off to get a smoothie (Don't judge me!) and will reply when I return.


Ive already answered another post with the same logic.

This is not about not finding dps fun. Neither is this about only playing as healer. (Even tho that would be a very interesting topic)

This is about overall role balance of the game and like you say in your Nr2 ... Most ppl play dps ... to the point where tanks and Healers are lacking in other content of the game (we have Qs both in LFR and LFD). Whats acceptable when it comes to those Qs is again personal opinion. But dont forget that many healers and tanks (with 480+ ilvl) are doing dungeons (for valor and extra rewards) making them much easier and faster for DPS classes. You did not mention the LFR Qs at all maybe because you wanted to avoid the fact that there are up to 1 hour long Qs there.

And that brings me to my opinion how to solve the overall problem. Instead of forcing healers to do daily quests in less than efficent way ( it was designed with dps to do it most efficent) - why not allow them to gain rewards like lesser charms doing other ENDGAME content that also helps other players out (including dps waiting in LFR Qs).

Now - lets have a debate rather than dps roles going ... "but but but then we can not laugh at healers suffering through forced dailies !" or "its not fair that healers dont have to suffer thought dailes if they do that "
Edited by Anon on 20/12/2012 20:46 GMT
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90 Gnome Monk
17760
I'm a healer.
The only time I use my DPS spec is when I do my FARM PLOTS, because I cannot have outside aid at that.
ANY other time, I group up with my best friend who happens to be a DPS, and I heal.
I do not hit mobs more than I bother, and I do not very much enjoy the whole "hit things to level up" for the most part, sometimes you are forced to.. yes, but other than that, no.
Having coins available through some other way than doing daily quests (because honestly, those coins are only really "very useful" if you raid, sure you can use them in LFR, but they become a LOT more powerful when you enter normal/heroic raids during progression, as you can bypass the "drop loot limit" on each boss, where they drop 6 items when you down it.. the first time you kill it with 25 people you might get as much as 18 pieces of loot from that single boss, which is HUGE when you are progressing through a tier.
Due to this everyone needs to buy their coins every week, and not doing so puts you "behind", so to speak. Sure, if you are not all that interested in progressing swiftly, then coins are also not all that important.
Adding a "new way of gaining them" through pet battles is fine in one way, I could do those without having to DPS things, but even then having a third option as well would not hurt. (I personally am not all that interested in pet battles.)
Options for a third way comes down to:
Is PvP an option? Not really, because you cannot use said coins in PvP, so why reward them for that?
Dungeons? Possibly, but I am somehow doubting there will be an "equal availability" between the 1-2 per daily quest (which are in hubs of 3-4, so you get from 3-8 coins per hub, ish). This hub will take less time than a heroic dungeon, so a heroic dungeon should from that point of view award 10 coins, at least the first each day or something like that, with the rest possibly rewarding 5, until daily reset. This would line up rather well with the dungeon reward of Valor Points, and you'd feel like you'd hit two flies with one swatter. Seeing as the only way to earn rep is through daily quests, then you'd still end up having to split it up a bit, but you'd actually have the option to do dungeons after hitting your "required rep levels", which would be nice.
Raiding? Well, raiding is where you're supposed to SPEND the coins... so getting coins there as well wouldn't make much sense, now would it?
Scenarios? Possibly, it would add another nice "small reward" to get possibly 2-5 coins from the bag at the end of the random queue.
Brawler's Guild? Well, that's an interesting idea... seeing as there is already a bag letting you get "stuff lying on the floor after a match" you could possibly let coins appear in that bag as well, though not more than perhaps 1-2 per match. It would be an "additional reward" for the player managing a difficult match, not a way of earning the 90 coins. (Queue times can be horrendous... if people started streaming there to "earn their coins" it would be completely silly) Though it would make sense that you shower some "good fortune" upon the competitors in the Brawler's Guild, now wouldn't it?
That's all I can think of right now.
(And yes, coins are very much mandatory during early progression in a tier, because they can let you get SO MUCH MORE loot than a boss actually drops normally. If you are more casual and you don't care, then they obviously don't matter.)
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90 Worgen Hunter
10515
20/12/2012 20:36Posted by Anon
But dont forget that many healers and tanks (with 480+ ilvl) are doing dungeons (for valor and extra rewards) making them much easier and faster for DPS classes.


True, but at the same time equally geared DPS are also doing dungeons for the same reasons, with the same effect, so that's mostly irrelevant.

20/12/2012 20:36Posted by Anon
You did not mention the LFR Qs at all maybe because you wanted to avoid the fact that there are up to 1 hour long Qs there.


Nope. Didn't mention LFR because I haven't bothered with any raiding at all yet, in MoP (way too casual and working on alts and proffs). But 1 hour to get a raid going is, quite frankly, nothing. Before LFR getting together a raid with randoms could take a lot longer and was a lot harder to organize.

And that brings me to my opinion how to solve the overall problem. Instead of forcing healers to do daily quests in less than efficent way ( it was designed with dps to do it most efficent) - why not allow them to gain rewards like lesser charms doing other ENDGAME content that also helps other players out (including dps waiting in LFR Qs).


No, dailies that involve killing are designed in a way that make them more efficient to complete as DPS.
Disregarding the fact that one of the main points of dual speccs was to give healers/tanks an alternative to respeccing constantly (or just having trouble with playing solo), it would be nice if healers/tanks could do dailies at the same speed and efficiency as DPS.
But an easier and fairer fix than offering them a specialized reward system would, for example, be a choice of which dailies they want to do (or just getting different dailies depending on specc). As I pointed out to Amrissa (?) there are already dailies and rep grind methods that don't require any dps, but are currently limited in various ways. So expanding on those seems like a much better method than singling out speccs for special rewards (especially when they won't use the options readily available).
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90 Worgen Hunter
10515
20/12/2012 20:24Posted by Amidead
I could grind whenever I felt like it while I was getting JP and VP for buying better gear.


That's kind of the whole reason they abandoned the system. You got 4 rewards for doing the same thing. And people complained about being forced to do those too.

20/12/2012 20:24Posted by Amidead
Was this really the BEST feedback you've ever read in your life or something? I know you mostly have votes regarding new design ideas, but something isn't right about scrapping the tabard just yet..


True, the tabard system cuold ahve been modified, at least. Like wearing a tabard means you don't get the VP/JP rewards or something. Think it's been mentioned that they're considering some ideas, actually...
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90 Undead Rogue
17565
The 'simple' fix to all these queries is not to remove the content that 'apparently' some people enjoy - rather re-instate some of the older ways of doing things that can co-exist with the alternative options.

By that I suggest the following:

Extend charm drops and rep gain to include dungeons (3 charms per boss seems a good number)
Re-instate flight scrolls for alts once a main has hit 90.
Bring back cauldrons for raids
Bring back mass summon
Decrease the cost of VP goods by 35%
Re-instate the 1500VP weekly cap
Abolish the penalty for running random heroics
Increase VP reward to 75 per instance.
Nerf HP on all the 88-90 mobs by 20% to enable a more reasonable experience of the daily grind.


this is somthing devolpers should look into it. I really miss Mass summn


BEEP! WRONG

This is exactly what developers should stay away from and let these awful things Rot In Peace (excluding couldrons)
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90 Human Paladin
0
But dont forget that many healers and tanks (with 480+ ilvl) are doing dungeons (for valor and extra rewards) making them much easier and faster for DPS classes.


True, but at the same time equally geared DPS are also doing dungeons for the same reasons, with the same effect, so that's mostly irrelevant.

You did not mention the LFR Qs at all maybe because you wanted to avoid the fact that there are up to 1 hour long Qs there.


Nope. Didn't mention LFR because I haven't bothered with any raiding at all yet, in MoP (way too casual and working on alts and proffs). But 1 hour to get a raid going is, quite frankly, nothing. Before LFR getting together a raid with randoms could take a lot longer and was a lot harder to organize.

And that brings me to my opinion how to solve the overall problem. Instead of forcing healers to do daily quests in less than efficent way ( it was designed with dps to do it most efficent) - why not allow them to gain rewards like lesser charms doing other ENDGAME content that also helps other players out (including dps waiting in LFR Qs).


No, dailies that involve killing are designed in a way that make them more efficient to complete as DPS.
Disregarding the fact that one of the main points of dual speccs was to give healers/tanks an alternative to respeccing constantly (or just having trouble with playing solo), it would be nice if healers/tanks could do dailies at the same speed and efficiency as DPS.
But an easier and fairer fix than offering them a specialized reward system would, for example, be a choice of which dailies they want to do (or just getting different dailies depending on specc). As I pointed out to Amrissa (?) there are already dailies and rep grind methods that don't require any dps, but are currently limited in various ways. So expanding on those seems like a much better method than singling out speccs for special rewards (especially when they won't use the options readily available).


Since you havn't done any LFRs yet - I will wait for 2 more weeks until you have done some and then come back.

Im a healer as main spec. Im now waiting in Q as DPS in LFR that is over 48 mins long and still counting. No1 should have to wait that long. So until you have done that for 2-3 weeks in 5 different raids (4-5 hours just waiting in Qs) then I truely dont think you really understand how the current system is flawed and how DPS centric daily quests and brawlers guild are making the game less and less balanced in terms of roles.

I hope you see my point next time when you wait in 50 mins long Q in LFR. It will give you alot of time to think about all those healers that a) are doing dailies in less than efficent way b) all the other healers that are waiting in same Q as dps to get dps gear to get more efficent in dailies and Brawlers guild.

In both cases healers should not be forced to do that - cause they are surely needed elsewhere in endgame group content.

And thats the bottom line. Rewards like lesser charms should be distributed for more variety than just doing dailies. Same goes for rep. That way we can make the game more balanced in terms of roles and increase the overall enjoyment for every player - instead of forcing less efficent roles do do DPS endgame content.

DPS classes would not accept having to do healing or tanking role in less efficent way every day... so why should others roles have to do it the dps way.

Dual specing does not solve this problem at all.
Edited by Anon on 20/12/2012 21:17 GMT
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