Just a small thought

90 Orc Monk
5555
Hey,

I've been playing arena since season 1, every season (when I've played ) I've reached at least 2000 rating in 2v2 or 3v3 with different characters (playing between 2000-2300mmr).

Before this expansion I have never had problems to reach somewhat decent rating to increase my conquest point cap (to atleast 1,8-1,9k). Even if I started to play mid season I could easily get to those ratings with far worse gear by simply outplaying my opponents, but nowadays
I just get teabag'd by every freaking keyboard turner, S-pedalding better geared opponent.

In my case I started to play MoP mid November and from that time I've managed to get 1 (ONE)- 1 handed weapon with full upgrades and 3- pieces of Malevolent-set. If our opponents aren't as poor geared as us, we can't just simply even fight back, even if I think we played much better than them in those games, ofc we lose some by mistakes and by getting outplayed. (This includes normal battlegrounds as well). So it's really hard to even try to increase rating over 1500.

I assume most of you know how frustrating this can be.

TL;DR: Is this game so dumped down that you can't outplay people without having close to similiar gear? And is it useless to even play this game(or even try to have fun PvP:ing), if you didn't start playing at the start of MoP?
Edited by Höpönöpö on 16/01/2013 16:59 GMT
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you being 1400 in 2s is has nothing to do with the game.

stop blaming the game and improve.
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90 Tauren Druid
0
Yeah, I miss the times when you could actually outplay people and instantly tell if someone was a terrible player.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10125
16/01/2013 17:06Posted by Faded
Yeah, I miss the times when you could actually outplay people and instantly tell if someone was a terrible player.


ye indeed
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90 Orc Monk
5555
you being 1400 in 2s is has nothing to do with the game.

stop blaming the game and improve.

By improving you mean start playing earlier or waiting to get better gear I assume?
There are situations where we keep other player cc:d for long time but still the other one runs over both of us, because of gear advantage.

It is really stupid system if you gotta wait for 3-4 months to even start having fun if you join late.
Edited by Höpönöpö on 16/01/2013 17:14 GMT
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you are right.
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Community
16/01/2013 17:06Posted by Faded
Yeah, I miss the times when you could actually outplay people and instantly tell if someone was a terrible player.

It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better. Gear is not always a deciding factor in a battle; although it's definitely something that assists you in winning. If you are playing better than your opponent you should have higher, if not the same, survival, damage and/or healing and as such you will still have a good chance of winning even if your gear is worse. This is not to say that gear does not help in deciding the outcome of a battle, but it is not the only factor as your skills can make up for a lack of gear.

Just so you know though, the disparity in stats on the different levels of PvP gear is something which we are currently looking into. We have a blog that’s coming soon which will talk about all of the changes to PvP gear we have planned for 5.2 and beyond. These changes will hopefully be major quality of life improvements for PvP'ers, helping with both mid and late season entry as well as the large difference in power between Honor and Conquest point gear.
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81 Orc Hunter
1225
16/01/2013 17:06Posted by Faded
Yeah, I miss the times when you could actually outplay people and instantly tell if someone was a terrible player.


This.
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90 Undead Warlock
7185
16/01/2013 18:19Posted by Nakatoir
It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better. Gear is not always a deciding factor in a battle;


16/01/2013 18:19Posted by Nakatoir
It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena


16/01/2013 18:19Posted by Nakatoir
possible to outplay


16/01/2013 18:19Posted by Nakatoir
outplay


----> http://i.imgur.com/YIV0S.png
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90 Undead Hunter
8620
It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better. Gear is not always a deciding factor in a battle;


It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena


possible to outplay


outplay


----> http://i.imgur.com/YIV0S.png


I don't see anything wrong with that, since clearly, you got out skilled.
Edited by Steroidz on 16/01/2013 18:30 GMT
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90 Worgen Druid
9745
Thank you Nakatoir.

Now you just need to not change Cyclone in a complete mongoloid way that forces ferals into cleaving, and make big CD's mutually exclusive somehow so you can't just pop them all in 1 go (effectively being 1 CD) and you've got yourself a decent patch from my PoV.

Also, Ring of Peace is way too strong when used offensively.

Really like the no-flying island.
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90 Troll Shaman
7320

Just so you know though, the disparity in stats on the different levels of PvP gear is something which we are currently looking into. We have a blog that’s coming soon which will talk about all of the changes to PvP gear we have planned for 5.2 and beyond. These changes will hopefully be major quality of life improvements for PvP'ers, helping with both mid and late season entry as well as the large difference in power between Honor and Conquest point gear.


Sounds good :)
Edited by Isbäver on 16/01/2013 19:00 GMT
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81 Orc Hunter
1225
16/01/2013 18:19Posted by Nakatoir
It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better.


Vanishing a cheapshot or deathcoil in wotlk = Outplaying. You can still do it, but it doesn't reward you anymore because you'll be CC'ed in stealth.

CD stacking and tunneling 1 target is not outplaying.

Or using incredibly stupid mechanics such as entangling roots + solar beam on a caster, or Ring of Peace next patch is not outplaying.

Just saying
Edited by Tublat on 16/01/2013 19:13 GMT
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90 Tauren Druid
0
Nakatoir

It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better. Gear is not always a deciding factor in a battle; although it's definitely something that assists you in winning. If you are playing better than your opponent you should have higher, if not the same, survival, damage and/or healing and as such you will still have a good chance of winning even if your gear is worse. This is not to say that gear does not help in deciding the outcome of a battle, but it is not the only factor as your skills can make up for a lack of gear.

Just so you know though, the disparity in stats on the different levels of PvP gear is something which we are currently looking into. We have a blog that’s coming soon which will talk about all of the changes to PvP gear we have planned for 5.2 and beyond. These changes will hopefully be major quality of life improvements for PvP'ers, helping with both mid and late season entry as well as the large difference in power between Honor and Conquest point gear.


I wasn't talking about gear, although I do feel more hopeless against upgraded t2 geared people than I ever did against BiS pve stacked players with legendaries, heroic vials/deathbringer wills etc in earlier expansions.

What I meant is classes have been dumbed down so much that you can no longer tell if someone is a bad, average or a good anymore. For example, no one casts anything. Most damage and CC spells are instant. It takes no skill to spam instant skills. All of these instant casts and melee abilities have a snare attached to them. And basically every god damn spec has some kind of a pet that is there to annoy the !@#$ out of you with their autocast instant CC and too high damage. I could give you hundreds of more examples. It's so incredibly easy to deal damage in this expansion.

The only way you can tell a bad hunter from a good one is if they keyboard turn and back peddle, aprt from that they might aswell all be played by the same player.
Edited by Faded on 16/01/2013 19:18 GMT
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81 Orc Hunter
1225
What I meant is classes have been dumbed down so much that you can no longer tell if someone is a bad, average or a good anymore. For example, no one casts anything. Most damage and CC spells are instant. It takes no skill to spam instant skills. All of these instant casts and melee abilities have a snare attached to them. And basically every god damn spec has some kind of a pet that is there to annoy the !@#$ out of you with their autocast instant CC and too high damage. I could give you hundreds of more examples. It's so incredibly easy to deal damage in this expansion.

The only way you can really tell a bad hunter from a good one is if they keyboard turn and back peddle, aprt from that they might aswell all be played by the same player.


This.

There's a certain wotlk realm that's very popular and active till this day, the reason is because game wasn't dumbed down, classes were unique (everyone didn't have an interrupt or stun) & it was fast paced.

So many clever use of mechanics have been dumbed down starting in cata.

Few examples:
Vanishing stuff to avoid dmg, or cheapshotting a deterrenced hunter, or popping icebound fortitude BEFORE you get stunned ( now you can just pop it like it's another trinket)
or using distract to turn players around and interrupt their casting.

Actually having to manage mana was fun as a mage in wotlk, but GC has officially said "mages aren't intended to oom, except arcane"

Preemptively use Invisibility to avoid an incomming pyroblast.

Having to monitor dots, that doesn't matter anymore because talents/glyphs such as glyph of blind removes all dots, or dirty tricks ignoring bleeds & poisons etcetc.

People were casting, it's just not worth it to cast anymore because instants are stronger and casting with a billion interrupts & stuns in the game is impossible. You're better off just spamming instants, mages used to frostbolt into a deepfreeze.. but now you're better off spamming icelances.

Procs such as lava surge (resets lavaburst) are too strong and happens to frequently, making the shaman not having to cast as much, or he can pop ascendance and chain lavaburst someone from 100-0.

Also every healer has a immunity aura mastery now, that's probably the only time worth casting anything.
Edited by Tublat on 16/01/2013 19:34 GMT
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90 Tauren Druid
10440
16/01/2013 19:12Posted by Tublat
It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better.


Vanishing a cheapshot or deathcoil in wotlk = Outplaying. You can still do it, but it doesn't reward you anymore because you'll be CC'ed in stealth.

CD stacking and tunneling 1 target is not outplaying.

Or using incredibly stupid mechanics such as entangling roots + solar beam on a caster, or Ring of Peace next patch is not outplaying.

Just saying


If anything is not outplaying, it's vanishing stuff as a rogue. The opposing player has absolutely no control over this. Terrible example.
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81 Orc Hunter
1225


Vanishing a cheapshot or deathcoil in wotlk = Outplaying. You can still do it, but it doesn't reward you anymore because you'll be CC'ed in stealth.

CD stacking and tunneling 1 target is not outplaying.

Or using incredibly stupid mechanics such as entangling roots + solar beam on a caster, or Ring of Peace next patch is not outplaying.

Just saying


If anything is not outplaying, it's vanishing stuff as a rogue. The opposing player has absolutely no control over this. Terrible example.


Yes it is outplaying your opponent, because you predicted the incomming CC/damaging attack.
The opposing player does have control if he knows how to play, vanish broke off of dots etc back then. You had to watch out for dot ticks, aoe's etc, now you just vanish with no worry because of the 3sec immunity.
Edited by Tublat on 16/01/2013 20:30 GMT
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16/01/2013 18:19Posted by Nakatoir
It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better. Gear is not always a deciding factor in a battle; although it's definitely something that assists you in winning. If you are playing better than your opponent you should have higher, if not the same, survival, damage and/or healing and as such you will still have a good chance of winning even if your gear is worse. This is not to say that gear does not help in deciding the outcome of a battle, but it is not the only factor as your skills can make up for a lack of gear.


This is true. But only if the difference is minimal and the gear is similar. Outside that, gear starts to outpace skill very, very quickly IME. Others may differ, of course.

The problem, as I see it, is that gear really should have no effect on PvP. I'm all for giving players who do well in PvP suitable rewards, but when you have gear substituting for skill, which it does in many situations, then the system needs to be rethought.

There will always be inequalities in PvP. Class balance is one. CC is a big issue right now. Maybe you'll be attacked a by a full raid on their way to MV.

But gear is one inequality that can be removed and should be removed.

Using the existing technology already in game, you could add a zone wide buff similar to challenge ratings, or make use of Resilience and buff it to 100% and rely on PvP Power (can we get a better name?) for damage or even fixed damage values (MS does 5-7% total health affected by PvP Power) or whatever.

This will remove the issues with gear scaling. Push the emphasis back onto skill. Remove the barrier for PvP entry. Eliminate the problems with ganking. Allow for more integration of PvP into the world. Widen the brackets of players available for entry in BGs. Allow the use of PvE gear in PvP and its purchase thereof (granted, that's not an advantage for some but if the gear doesn't affect PvP play and the costs are taken care of, why not?).

A better PvP experience. Downside? Will players see transmog gear as something worth fighting for.

EJL
Edited by Talen on 16/01/2013 22:00 GMT
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better.

Wrong.

Yesterday we faced Warrior Shaman. Our gear - full simple PvP epics with weapons. Warriors gear - full t2 with 2/2 upgrades.

He hit's me - I'm at 35% hp. He hit's my Healer - he's at 20% hp. I open on him to stop damage on my healer > he ignores ALL the CCs (blind, dismantle, gouge, full stun) and then just 100-0% my healer while i'm also low on hp, got no CCs left and my stun on DR.
The match duration was like 30 sec = my CCs time + few seconds to destroy my healer.

There's no such thing as "outplay" in WoW any more.
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