Just a small thought

90 Human Warlock
0
Equal gear for all is definitely not the solution IMO. For me, a big part of the fun and addiction of an MMORPG is upgrading your character's stats (gear improvements being the main stat booster) as you progress, and I believe this gear "hunt" is a what drives, not only me, but most other players as well to continue playing the game. This goes for both PvE and PvP. Personally I don't care much about the cosmetic aspect of gear, nor do I care much about the "appearance" of my character in general, so transmog rewards are completely undesirable to me. Same goes with mounts, pets etc. Function > form.
Edited by Sparx on 16/01/2013 21:38 GMT
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90 Undead Rogue
9020

It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better. Gear is not always a deciding factor in a battle


Actually you are only half-right. It is possible, but only if gear difference is not that huge. For example almost full malevolent with no upgrades + tier1 2/2 versus full malevolent 2/2 + tier 2 2/2. In that case, yes, you can outplay them and only with certain classes... If you are full honor geared + tier1 playing against full malevolent people with tier2, no, no way in hell you can outplay them every except with maybe mage or rogue.

I every other season I could outplay someone with just full honor gear, no matter if they were full geared. That is just not possible now.

For example, for casters, difference in full honor gear + T1 versus full malevolent gear + T2 is in more then 35% damage and soooooooo much more HP. You can not outplay that, its impossible no matter how much you want us the believe it is.

But all of it is mostly thanks to retarded cooldown stacking. Mage/warrior/BM hunter for example (many more classes tho) can just kill honor geared character in matter of seconds, while honor geared person can not do the same to them.

I'd say its gear is more then 75% of "skill" nowdays. Thats the sad truth and I really doubt its gonna change much, not until cooldown stacking gets fixed or completely removed.
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90 Undead Rogue
9020
16/01/2013 21:37Posted by Sparx
Equal gear for all is definitely not the solution IMO.


Its not, but gear disparity should not be this big. But, actually, when I think about it, so low amount of people play PvP that even if they added free PvP sets for all it would not make much difference.
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16/01/2013 21:37Posted by Sparx
Equal gear for all is definitely not the solution IMO. For me, a big part of the fun and addiction of an MMORPG is upgrading your character's stats (gear improvements being the main stat booster) as you progress, and I believe this gear "hunt" is a what drives, not only me, but most other players as well to continue playing the game.


This is very true as well. But should such an upgrade affect PvP performance?

What if your upgrade gear was the current PvE gear? One set for both? You'd still end up able to steamroller your way through game content...just not other players.

EJL
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90 Human Warlock
11155
16/01/2013 18:19Posted by Nakatoir
Yeah, I miss the times when you could actually outplay people and instantly tell if someone was a terrible player.

It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better. Gear is not always a deciding factor in a battle; although it's definitely something that assists you in winning. If you are playing better than your opponent you should have higher, if not the same, survival, damage and/or healing and as such you will still have a good chance of winning even if your gear is worse. This is not to say that gear does not help in deciding the outcome of a battle, but it is not the only factor as your skills can make up for a lack of gear.

Just so you know though, the disparity in stats on the different levels of PvP gear is something which we are currently looking into. We have a blog that’s coming soon which will talk about all of the changes to PvP gear we have planned for 5.2 and beyond. These changes will hopefully be major quality of life improvements for PvP'ers, helping with both mid and late season entry as well as the large difference in power between Honor and Conquest point gear.


If I may just make a comment on that. What you are saying at the moment is that when you lack gear and have skill you have the same dmg/healing as some1 worse with gear. So if I take it correct during the 5-10 weeks that you gear your character fully and you have skill you actually play like a completely awful player with gear. That is great, so you are on par with baddies with gear until you reach approximately the same ilvl.
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90 Undead Warlock
12860
I remember wotlk mage vs warrior duels. Back then I was on a lower populated server with less than 100 capable player. We had one mage who was able to defeat any warrior on said realm with almost no gear. (just his weapon / offhand + some gear for hitcap / pen cap). Try something like this right now...

Currently it is possible to outplay opponents but it is rare and not easy. I have played above 2k in 2s and 3s the last 4 seasons and this season I barely manage 1.6k in 2s because you just meet warrior or dk teams with gear who simply do 100% more dmg than you despite having more stuns etc.

With my gear I am just able to score kills with 4 embers + cds + all ccs + 0 dr up. On the other hand if I had full gear it would just be 2 cbs or even 1 which is way easier to get off than 3 cbs.

So saying outplaying is possible is true but that doesn't mean that you will always beat worse player which is what it should be like.
Edited by Itha on 16/01/2013 23:54 GMT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
15150
16/01/2013 17:06Posted by Faded
Yeah, I miss the times when you could actually outplay people and instantly tell if someone was a terrible player.
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90 Troll Druid
0
16/01/2013 18:30Posted by Steroidz








----> http://i.imgur.com/YIV0S.png


I don't see anything wrong with that, since clearly, you got out skilled.


Hahah that was the best post I have ever read :D

OnT: Remove the t2 gear completely and let it be about skill even for people slacking in rating in the beginning of a season. Oh, yeah, baby.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9260
16/01/2013 18:19Posted by Nakatoir
It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better

It feels pointless to try to kite melees on your alt when rogue does 90% of dmg with shuriken toss and kills you
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67 Undead Warlock
500
16/01/2013 18:19Posted by Nakatoir
It is still entirely possible to outplay others in Arena even if their gear is better.


The difference is in MoP, is that even though you outplay them, you still end up losing.

Gear has become the most important factor in PvP.
Edited by Ðaeðric on 17/01/2013 08:31 GMT
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90 Human Hunter
7815
Hi

Im playing at 2k-2.2k mmr players. In our 3vs3 we all have T1.

If we had T2. I can say to a 100% that we would be 2300+.

We do not have close to the preassure of a T2 cleave no matter how bad they are. But we can still outplay them many times due to they are RBG heroes. Thats why we can take 1800-2000 fairly easy. But then if you meet people with similair skill its gets really damn hard.

Facing multiglads and r1s. yes. we have beaten quite a few R1s and triple glads. Still not 2.2. They all change teams quite alot, cause it doesnt matter, They still get their high cap from RBG.

2.2 in arena today is not easy. Cant even start thinking about how hard it would be in honor gear. Impossible
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90 Draenei Warrior
0
16/01/2013 17:06Posted by Faded
Yeah, I miss the times when you could actually outplay people and instantly tell if someone was a terrible player.

While I agree on this you also have to take the fact that players in general are better nowadays into consideration.

But yeah, gear just matters too much.
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Community
I wasn't talking about gear, although I do feel more hopeless against upgraded t2 geared people than I ever did against BiS pve stacked players with legendaries, heroic vials/deathbringer wills etc in earlier expansions.

What I meant is classes have been dumbed down so much that you can no longer tell if someone is a bad, average or a good anymore. For example, no one casts anything. Most damage and CC spells are instant. It takes no skill to spam instant skills. All of these instant casts and melee abilities have a snare attached to them. And basically every god damn spec has some kind of a pet that is there to annoy the !@#$ out of you with their autocast instant CC and too high damage. I could give you hundreds of more examples. It's so incredibly easy to deal damage in this expansion.

The only way you can tell a bad hunter from a good one is if they keyboard turn and back peddle, aprt from that they might aswell all be played by the same player.
The number of instant cast spells that are in the game right now is something that we are looking into, there was actually a rather detailed post about instant cast spells, the number and frequency of CC. Let me have a looksy here for that... http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6133773365?page=6#108
What we are saying is that we are aware of your concerns with the current state of instant casts, CC as well as other topics and how it is that they impact your gameplay in PvP.

16/01/2013 20:55Posted by Talen
But gear is one inequality that can be removed and should be removed.
It is not entirely feasible to remove gear from PvP. I think that Sparx and Gramzivi have hit the nail on the head with this one. While you may appreciate simply getting some transmog gear or something similar as a reward, the essence of an RPG such as World of Warcraft is upgrading your character and this is what many people play for. So equal stats for all is not really the answer, it is solving the issue of stats disparity on the different levels of PvP gear.

What if your upgrade gear was the current PvE gear? One set for both? You'd still end up able to steamroller your way through game content...just not other players.
Doing something like this might mean that people start using PvP as another way to gear up for PvE rather than doing PvE itself, this is something we would rather avoid. We are fine with some cross-over where you can get gear that is usable, but not better than what can be acquired through the intended means.
Edited by Nakatoir on 17/01/2013 08:50 GMT
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67 Undead Warlock
500
17/01/2013 08:49Posted by Nakatoir
It is not entirely feasible to remove gear from PvP.


And you know this because?
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16/01/2013 17:06Posted by Faded
Yeah, I miss the times when you could actually outplay people and instantly tell if someone was a terrible player.


RiP Skill > Gear 2004-2006. Resilience destroyed that.
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Community
17/01/2013 08:50Posted by Ðaeðric
It is not entirely feasible to remove gear from PvP.


And you know this because?
Because of those reasons already mentioned. While it might be possible to use a current system or to create a new one to perform such a task, it would most likely not happen because of those reasons already listed in my post.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9135
I don't really have problem with the gear stuff. People with full malev don't do too much random BGs (if they do they deserve to win).
In 1v1 I can OUTPLAY (Yes outplay) a player with T2 and win. But in 3v3 the gear gap shows too much.
With 2 T2 persons hacking me I fall way faster than 2 person with T1 doing it. (lol doing it). The T2 gear items should be brought down not much, but a little. Cause in 3v3 and 5v5 etc the bonus in T2 is multiplied (due to 3 or 5 persons having it, against 3 or 5 who are not), and so is the ilvl gap. It's not that bad in 1v1 situations, but as mentioned, game isn't balanced on 1v1.

But also I think it's too hard to attain gear in midseason, but I believe Blizz is looking into that?
Upgrades removed so the gear attaining won't be as hard anymore. So I think we're quite fine except for the T2 multiplied gap in 3v3.
If the stat bonus in T2 compared to T1 would be brought down by like 2/5 ( I mean if you get [just a number] 100 more stre for T2) it would be that 60 stre.
Now in 3v3 atm that 100 is multiplied by gear of 3 people making it 100x3=300. If it was brought down to 60 bonus it'd be 3x60=180 making it less great in 3v3 multipled situations, but still really showing in 1v1 situations.
Edited by Hitto on 17/01/2013 09:34 GMT
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86 Tauren Druid
7695
It is not entirely feasible to remove gear from PvP. I think that Sparx and Gramzivi have hit the nail on the head with this one. While you may appreciate simply getting some transmog gear or something similar as a reward, the essence of an RPG such as World of Warcraft is upgrading your character and this is what many people play for. So equal stats for all is not really the answer, it is solving the issue of stats disparity on the different levels of PvP gear.


You wouldn't have to remove gear from PvP entirely.

You COULD however implement an alternative BG type (for example sBG = 'skill based BG') with gear normalization or preconfigured gear, that you would specifically have to queue for.
Edited by Bovo on 17/01/2013 09:42 GMT
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90 Undead Warlock
7300
At around 8-10 ilvls if that includes T2, and we apply this to a mirror match, it gets very very hard. This is just a fact, if you dont belive it go try yourselves and please dont be shy to report back your experience here. Gear matters more than it ever has, that I belive is also a fact? IF T2 weapon should be kept (and I hope it doesnt, same as the upgrading system) then the stats rewarded should be much much less like a 2% dmg gain no more.
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