Why do we get punished for doing our best?

(Locked)

90 Troll Hunter
19605
Tbh think that Blizzard made the cap using the less is more method. This method is quite simple, we cant get a lot of 476+ ilvl gear at once so to get a good set of gear it takes longer, so we have to buy more months of gametime to aquire our shinies.

Less for us, more for them basically.


You are right, but random loot drop already works for that. And works very well, specially on 10man, were loot is 1token + 1 item from boss :)
How come that player can get "higher currency", Valor Points faster, easier and far more convenient than "lower currency," Justice Points?

I find it rather very strange that player can get VP through dailies alone, while JP as lower currency can only be obtained in "group" environment. Either in Scenarios, 5m and raid settings.

I do not see a logic in this, where JP is way more scarce than VP. And that even when player play as solo he can still earn epics.

Every daily which gives VP should also give JP, or at least give the player a choice what he want to get. Either VP or JP!
90 Pandaren Monk
14720
So in essence, the cap helps people that is driven by doing their best with the limited time on their hand, actually do other stuff thatnfarming valor.

Raising the cap would most likely just having people like me only do stuft that awards valor and then miss other aspects of the game entirely.


This is indeed one of the reasons why there is a cap, and why it is where it is currently. :-)

If we are to lower or raise the cap, we will always need to consider if the people who will be pleased will outnumber the people who will be disappointed... it is not always an easy nor obvious call to make.


Sounds good in theory, in practice weeks go to making sure we're ready to raid and actually raiding and the last day of the lockout is just grinding vp from whatever is fastest, not the most fun way.
90 Troll Hunter
19605
@Nihyla you are right, after I ding my last alt I see how painful is to do HCs again and again and how small JP gain per dungeon is. To upgrade 1 item is like 6-7 HC runs, so can enter in LFR. And here I get everything 476ilvl, except darkmoon trinket and still need to upgrade 5items to enter in 470+ LFR. Also to note that were lucky to get head, waist and shoulders from 1st MSV run.

Problem is that, there is no bonus JP in random HCs, JP as worse PvE currency and more slow boring to get. This 6-7 run in best case is 10-15min per run... I agree, that after VP cap everything should reward JP.

So in essence, the cap helps people that is driven by doing their best with the limited time on their hand, actually do other stuff thatnfarming valor.

Raising the cap would most likely just having people like me only do stuft that awards valor and then miss other aspects of the game entirely.

This is indeed one of the reasons why there is a cap, and why it is where it is currently. :-)

If we are to lower or raise the cap, we will always need to consider if the people who will be pleased will outnumber the people who will be disappointed... it is not always an easy nor obvious call to make.


All this argument is invalid, there is way to do something, if want to make it. Do not forget, that not only cap can rise, but also can rise numbers on VP gain with quests, dungeons, raid boss kills so amount of time also can be the same with raised weekly valor cap.
Edited by Lidocaine on 03/01/2013 15:09 GMT
90 Orc Shaman
18305
02/01/2013 12:33Posted by Alisce
I think my frustration atm is that i'm trying to get raid rdy and get my ilvl but luck of the draw is being bad to me in LFR.. 2 weeks no drop.


You can get raid ready from heroics only. Although it takes a lot of time, upgraded blue items from heroics give you a minimum of 471 ilvl. And this is perfectly fine for Mogu'shan Vaults raid, as someone already mentioned in this thread, we had to progress through it in 463 blues. And we managed.

If you're talking about your mage gearing up, I can see on armory you are even wearing 8 pieces from LFR. Three of these acquired only yesterday, but I still do not see how are you not ready for raiding.
90 Tauren Druid
0
Vaneras is right in most of what he posted.

The primary means of acquiring new gear is through defeating content like for an example raids, whereas Valor Points is a supplemental means of getting new gear.


That sums it up pretty nicely. You can debate the valor item ilvl in regards to raid item equivalents of course, but in essence, that is true. Valor items are supposed to be 'in case you are unlucky'-gear, and if you are lucky, then you now can choose to upgrade instead.

So why the cap? As said, it enforces a choice, and provides an alternative way of gearing in a controlled steady pace.

Trust me, Nothing (!) good can come out of a no cap on valors. E.g. With the introduction of upgrades, high end raiders will be 'forced' by their raidleader to do daily hc 24 hours a day (40 valors a go). Fun times. If you dont, you are not doing your best to have all your gear max upgraded, and not doing your best in terms of progress = worst case kicked out from the raiding team. If there was no cap, every raider and everyone hoping to be one, would rush through 3000-4000 valors a day until there were no more valor gear to be had, and no more upgrades possible. What if you have to choose.. a 2 week vacation on a sunny beach with a beauty queen and kicked out of the team, or 53760 (+560) valors (which is 2 weeks of doing 4 hcs an hour nonstop.) ? And in all honesty, blizzard should not encourage to not live your normal life. In fact they should do the opposite. The old text based Utopia game (if anyone remembers it) had one nice thing in this regard, that if you didnt log in at all for 20 hours, you got an offline gold bonus. That is something blizz should consider and implement somehow. But that is going offtopic.

---

While being slightly offtopic, I must add to this discussion, the essense of the implementation of valor items in the first place, and I will focus on the second part of the quote above.

Valor Points is a supplemental means of getting new gear.


As such, valor rewards should NEVER (!!) be hidden away behind reputation requirements. That is so illogical, as it forfeits some of the purpose, in response to Vaneras statement there. Valor items werent behind reputations when valor were introduced, and I cant really see a valid reason why they changed that. E.g. I now have around 7000 valors stored in gear on my alt priest, not being able to purchase for the slots Ive been unlucky for (the purpuse of valor gear), just because they are hidden away behind a reputation barrier. And yes, I hate doing dailies, especially when you have 10 90s, working on your 11th. Dailies are the thing in wow furthest away from being social as Greg stated would want us to be. You hate if another person is close by when you do a daily, stealing your mob/quest items. And if you repeatable say "Dailies arent needed", then please adhere to the essence of the original valor item implementation and just have them as a supplemental mean of getting new gear. Without reputations. The reputations can do other things, such as buyable gear, achievements, mounts and/or unlock quest chains/portals and other stuff.

---

But returning to the cap itself, the current model is unfortunate in many ways. You have caps on how fast you can acquire valors/reps/golden charms etc, but they are absolute on that day/week. With that I mean, that if you miss a daily, a week of raiding etc (like christmas week for many), you are irrevertably one week behind. If you have an alt leveling up now or new to the game, you will be 3 months behind. If you miss a few valors for your legendary, then you miss a full week, Which brings us to the following commonly heard statements :

MoP is very alt unfriendly


We are trying to find ways of people catching up without negating the value of achievements from people there from the start


Which brings me to my 'magical suggestion' :

Let the cap be rolling every day, and not on weekly basis. Let me give you an example.. When the tier starts, valors are reset as normal. On day 1 you can earn 150 valors (all sources), on e.g. day 49 you can earn a total this tier of 49 * 150 = 7350 valors. This will actually be virtually no change at all to top raiders, as 7 capped weeks is 7000, actually a slight improvement for them. But more importantly, if you miss a week, you can easily catch up. You can go away to that beach, and still feel you didnt let your teammates down when you come back. You can catch up. Or you as a new char can catch up on your friends, doing a bunch of hcs, without getting anything for free, negating the efforts they did. Since you still can only have 3000 valors at any given time, you are still left with the same choices on what to buy on the same tier gear, at week 7, as others had week 1-6. I cant see anything negative about this change, as this will also help push people away from rushing everything at wednesdays. And if you raid on wednesdays, you will cap that day, regardless what the cap is that day.

This more alt/new-friendly model should go for valors, golden charms (1 every 3d day or something for 30 lesser), yes virtually anything that has weekly/daily cap AND is tied to a tier.

---

And related to this, you have the different bonuses they have implemented for valors and reputation. They are good and help alts, but unfortunately the reputation commission bonus (100%) and the valor cap bonus within a week (50%) both act the same unfortunate way. Right now, the most benefitial way is to cap one character as quickly as humanly possible. That is, do dailies every day until revered on one character before doing anything on your alts. And cap 1000 valors on one character on wednesday morning, leaving that character for the rest of that wow-week. This really isnt supporting diversive play, and is actually contributing to other negative effects as well. e.g. it feels wasted to use my scrub tank alt in an hc, before I have capped one of my chars, even though the satchel is there and the need in general is great.

A simple solution for this unwanted 'burst play', would be (perhaps a gold paid (?)) choice to instead of having the current 50%/100% model on valors and reputation, you could instead REDUCE the valor gains you gain on your current char with 20%, but instead gain the same amount on ALL ELIGABLE chars. E.g. I choose to use this, and instead of the 5 valors on a daily, I get 4 on the current char and all other 90 chars I have will get 1. I then switch to an alt and do the same daily, he gets 4 and all other chars get 1. After those 2 dailes, 2 chars have 5 valors, and the rest have 2 valors. (2 chars will also get e.g. 150 rep, while the rest will get 30 rep). Since all chars are capped by the same tier wise valor cap (as suggested above), and you have your own choice of activating it, noone will be forced to use alts to benefit a main. As if you use an alt when you have capped a main, you'll only get 1 justice point on your main.

This will have other positive sideeffects, beyond addressing the downside above, as it also will provide a benefit for people using their characters beyond cap. As this will (very slowly) gear up your alts as well. And even bursting your main to extreme wont matter much, as at day 49, your alt is limited by 7350 valor cap anyway and would have gained it faster gaining it himself. But it will never feel wasted to swap character at any point when you play.

Once activated this will affect all your chars on the same realm. And this will remove the need for commissions and valor cap buffs (as a related side note, in the current model, a much more clear visual is needed in your reputation pane about the commission buff is active or not).

---

Sorry for multiple angles and the wall of text, but It kind of addressed most of the concerns of what people have posted here and related in other threads about gaining valor points in general. Its all connected.

/Gathurgh
Community
03/01/2013 11:19Posted by Matarack
People trying to gear alts would welcome a limitless amount of valor per reset (No cap), essentially they'd be in total control of the character progress, one week they might not have as much time as the next, win / win.

03/01/2013 11:19Posted by Matarack
A new player would also welcome limitless VP gain, he / she could gain ground in hours where friends aren't around, with the current system the new player is locked in whatever stage the person is behind those he's trying to catch up to.

03/01/2013 11:19Posted by Matarack
If the overall goal with the VP was to accommodate as many as possible, then not having a cap would surely be the better option?

These are all very good points, and I would personally agree with you that limitless Valor Points would be a nice thing if it wasn't for the fact that they are intended as a supplement to the normal gearing process. We should not forget that there are more than one reason behind the cap. :-)

If the acquisition of Valor Points became limitless as you suggest, then we would quickly find the situation to be one where gearing up through Valor Points no longer serves as a supplement to the normal gearing process through facing and defeating different tiers of content. If the acquisition of Valor Points became limitless, it would serve as the primary method of gearing up for a very large group of players (if not almost every player), thus the normal gearing process (through raiding for an example) would be circumvented. Also, limitless Valor Points would likely render everything but the latest content tiers mostly irrelevant, as the game would become all about farming Valor Points for gear through dailies.
49 Tauren Druid
6335
This might be a terrible idea but would it be worth exploring using VP the same way (Item not found) work?

This will by no means fix everyone's problems, as this solution will not allow you to farm past a certain point.

However, what it will do is allow you to farm more of a Tier 1 token (Named whatever you fancy) in any one week period but only be able to enxhange a certain amount via repeatable quest into VP.

One benefit this could have is that the people who have varied or limited time to play the game (That are the one apparently complaining about being forced into farming), would be able to be more flexible about when and where they farm the Tier 1 token.

For the sake of an example I will use ridiculosly rounded numbers but in essence, a player could farm up 4,500 Tier 1 tokens one week but due to limited play time only be able to farm up 2,600 the second week.

If these tier 1 tokens could be traded in as a quest for something like 3,000 = 1,000, then that person will still be able to hit the (Current) VP cap without having to put in a high number of hours each and every week. (And still have some excess for following weeks)

The end goal of this change would hopefully be that if the VP become more viable to the players with limited time, then the weekly VP cap could potentially be highered as they will have more flexibility around when they are getting their tokens.

This is not a fully thought out idea, just something that came to me while sitting at my computer but I would appreciate your thoughts, positive or negative (Provided they are delivered critically and not emotionally).

Waste of time or an idea with merit?

Edit - Damn if I was faster typing my thoughts, I migth have had a blue reviewing it.
Edited by Eeniemeanie on 03/01/2013 16:06 GMT
49 Tauren Druid
6335
I think this is a really good idea, i hope someone who "can" see this as at least a consideration that can be reviewed.

03/01/2013 15:47Posted by Gathurgh
Let the cap be rolling every day, and not on weekly basis. Let me give you an example.. When the tier starts, valors are reset as normal. On day 1 you can earn 150 valors (all sources), on e.g. day 49 you can earn a total this tier of 49 * 150 = 7350 valors. This will actually be virtually no change at all to top raiders, as 7 capped weeks is 7000, actually a slight improvement for them. But more importantly, if you miss a week, you can easily catch up. You can go away to that beach, and still feel you didnt let your teammates down when you come back. You can catch up. Or you as a new char can catch up on your friends, doing a bunch of hcs, without getting anything for free, negating the efforts they did.
90 Human Monk
8630
Even that I do understand blizzard's point of view in this matter, I personally don't want "limitless" valor cap. Just would love to have option to get 1 VP item / week assuming that you really do ALL the dailies you can find.
This is an honest question.

Are you raid ready in full blue HC gear?

If so...I see no issue with valor cap.

If not...then ye, its frustrating not being able to raid simply because you have to wait.

Its a tactic for rpgs as old as the hills. If a part of the game is too hard, then you go off and grind a few levels more so you outgear it.
Edited by Qruel on 03/01/2013 16:30 GMT
85 Human Paladin
7965
I honestly think most people would not mind a cap if you could buy any piece of gear after reaching it i.e. one week grind = one piece of gear.

In addition, the valor cap is going to be especially problematic for those of us who have yet to finish the 1st stage of the Black Prince's quest (well, for my part I am to blame, but there are plenty of people with bad RNG who still have to get enough Wisdom tokens and have played consistently).
90 Undead Warlock
20385
This is an honest question.

Are you raid ready in full blue HC gear?


Yes, you are. Any failure to clear normal modes in full blues is purely down to the player, not the gear. You can compensate for lack of skill with gear to an extent, but what then? The worst players won't be "raid ready" unless they're wearing full heroic gear to clear normal mode - you can't expect that.

Blues are enough to clear normals.
Normal epics are enough to clear heroics.

LFR, crafted gear, rep gear and the gradual progression of normal gear as you're working through that content is extra padding.

You do not need to be getting one item per week, I've had plenty of times where I've not looted one item per month when raiding, the out of raid gearing system is at a pretty nice speed, if you want more loot - do more content, be that raiding or even 2v2 arenas for easy epics.

IF there wasn't a valor cap, the item upgrade system would need to go - because otherwise every second of ingame time anyone taking raiding even moderately serous would spend all day every day in dungeons farming content purely for valour, to get guaranteed upgrades for their raid gear.

Which brings me to my 'magical suggestion' :

Let the cap be rolling every day, and not on weekly basis. Let me give you an example.. When the tier starts, valors are reset as normal. On day 1 you can earn 150 valors (all sources), on e.g. day 49 you can earn a total this tier of 49 * 150 = 7350 valors. This will actually be virtually no change at all to top raiders, as 7 capped weeks is 7000, actually a slight improvement for them. But more importantly, if you miss a week, you can easily catch up.


But if you miss a day, you can never catch up - miss 5 days and you've lost nearly the entire weeks, you can't make it up before the reset. This system would make me feel compelled to log in during christmas day to run heroics or whatever, I like the current system for letting me log in Tuesday night after Christmas / New Year and be able to chain run things with a few guildies to make up for my lack of time earlier in the week.

I see no improvement from making it yet another thing you need to be logged in every single day to achieve.
Edited by Nagassh on 03/01/2013 17:09 GMT
90 Night Elf Priest
9515
The point is that this

So in essence, the cap helps people that is driven by doing their best with the limited time on their hand, actually do other stuff than farming valor.


Penalises those that have more time on their hands. Nobody is "obliged" to do dailies as you put it, and other than high end raiding guilds I can't see any guild forcing anyone to go to the valor cap every week. I would love to have the choice on how I use my earnings potential to gain valor, if I really want an item I should be able to grind for it should I so choose. Early on when I had just finished levelling my main, I was hitting the cap very early on in the week and still running heroics and doing dailies for the rep, the whole cap thing just meant I was missing out on a reward that I had still put the effort in for. This is far worse than a few casual players qq'ing that they feel obliged to max out to the cap every week.

It is quite simply unethical to make the "work" available (quests) and not pay the full reward for that quest because you have an arbitrary cap on earnings.

I wonder if Blizzard said they had some overtime available one weekend but that you wouldn't be paid for it as they had decided you had hit your maximum earnings for the week you would bother? Same thing with a Valor cap.
Edited by Ayasta on 03/01/2013 17:35 GMT
90 Tauren Druid
0
But if you miss a day, you can never catch up - miss 5 days and you've lost nearly the entire weeks, you can't make it up before the reset. This system would make me feel compelled to log in during christmas day to run heroics or whatever, I like the current system for letting me log in Tuesday night after Christmas / New Year and be able to chain run things with a few guildies to make up for my lack of time earlier in the week.


I think you are misunderstanding my suggestion. Every day that you are away, your points will be the same, but the cap will increase. If you return after 1 week, you'll have 1050 points up to cap. If you return after 2 weeks, you have 2100 up to cap (14 days). Actually, everything that you do now, you can still do, you are just gaining more freedom, and more ability to catch up. Everyone in the server will at day 88 of the tier, have had the ability to earn 88*150=13200 valors up to that point. Its a server cap number. Regardless if you gain 150 per day, or if you are away on a sunny holiday for 2 weeks. If you been really slow and only earned 4000 up to day 88, you can gain 9200 valors that day (if it was possible to gain that much). It actually reduces the need to log in, on weeks you have other things to do.. like christmas. Right now the server cap is 13000 for 13 weeks. You cant get more. But if you didnt get it with 1000 every single week of those 13 up to that point, you cant catch up as you will always be a bit behind. To be more technical, the cap-reset that is made every week now, I would like to be moved to encompass entire tier, but with keeping it limited to a steady rate.
90 Goblin Priest
13465
It would also make gearing way too quick. One would burn out very quickly and be left with little to do before another patch comes out. It's easier than ever to obtain valor now, with dailies etc, there would be 2 sets of people. One who spend every minute playing and they'd be OP.

The rest would be undergeared in comparison. Remember when there was a glitch in LFR and Paragon took advantage? People would probably take days off to get all their gear asap if they had the choice.


That's the point, try and do some math for it.., remember it's only removing the cap that's being debated.

Say you've done your first heroic, you've claimed the 80VP and now have the standard 40VP per dungeon.

That's 32 dungeons completed in order to buy another item with a cost of 1250VP, how quick can anyone honestly see themselves grinding out that amount of dungeons?:S
Taking me as an example, while I do my dailies etc etc and am currently 250ish off the cap fo this reset.., I might get enough over a reset for a second item / second upgrade, but it is nothing I'd go out of my way to get, because it is optional-

but I guess people who claim being forced to something, would sit in front of their computer grinding until all their gear was maxed out.., ofc they wouldn't, suddenly they'd also start seeing it as an optional route, because suddenly there was no limit to the amount of time required.
Either that, or they'd complain that communism was gone and some was able to progress in another aspect faster then they were.
90 Undead Mage
6245
Is me or PvP is favored?

Valor points cap - 1000
- Heroics
- Scenarios
- Daily
- LFR
- Raid bosses

Conquest points cap - 2200
- Rated Bg
- Random Bg
- Arena

So VP have more sources, but the cap is lower than CP.


The CQ point cap is higher because that is the only source of higher level gear. (Excluding lucky sha drops). Hurr
90 Goblin Death Knight
5840
03/01/2013 08:22Posted by Vaneras
There will unfortunately always be people who feel like they have to reach the cap every week, and if there is no cap, then these people will make their own cap which is typically the maximum possible.


Only the real no-livers do that, and who cares about them anyways they already have no live.

03/01/2013 08:22Posted by Vaneras
If that was the case, how do you think that would impact the people who are feeling that they are "forced" to reach the cap every week in order to maximise their gearing process?


Tbh i don't get here whole argument, if i have the time i have no issue making the cap nor doing the cap true dungeons and raids.

03/01/2013 08:22Posted by Vaneras
How do you think that would impact the people who are trying to gear up their alts?


Awesome most likely, cause for them if there is not cap they can just rush into gear, think this might actually put less stress on LFG heroic loot rolls (seriously just change LFG to same format as LFR and get it done with, that being a little off-topic though).

How would it impact the new player leveling a new character trying to catch up with his friends who invited him to the game?


If his friend is a good friend, and not one of the idiots that joined around cata that got everything handed for nearly free, this should not be an issue at all.

03/01/2013 08:22Posted by Vaneras
How would it impact the progress in guilds with a combination of members with a lot of free time to play and members with precious little time to play?


Once again if there is proper team play in that guild, this should not be an issue. The same is already there now with people having a job etc and people that dont have a job. You wont see me whine about them having more achievement points (or gold, or mats, or reputations to exalted etc etc) cause they have more time to spend on the game. Same goes for gear and progression really, ill get there on my own pace, and if the guild cant wait for its members to get true it cause of spread out playing times, than the guild was not meant for you in the first place you would have fallen behind (got booted) sooner or later annyways.

Don't get me wrong i don't want the whole cap gone, i just want a proper solution for those that cant play each week, and might have more time to spend the one week than the other.

After all over time blizz created this atmosphere them self with all the easy gear etc, now there is a system in place that can be nice and solve it all cause there is a big curve in the gain of VP and upgrading things. But the wrong people are being put behind cause they cant do each the things needed each week.

If we are to lower or raise the cap, we will always need to consider if the people who will be pleased will outnumber the people who will be disappointed... it is not always an easy nor obvious call to make.


Sounds to me like i am better of finding another job that suits the game, cause i cant change my working hours, and by the looks of it the cap isnt going to change either so my progression is there for around 50% slower that it was designed for on this weekly basis.

Yeah for knowing i wont get any were with in the next odd 48 weeks of this year, and that is not even counting for when i want o move up to normals and heroics.

Just to make this crystal clear, i don't want my gear tomorrow or the day after, i don't want to buy my gear either i am perfectly fine with it taking time and being as random as hell. But its a given fact that you need to points to progress at some point, and if you cant do 50% of that cause of RL you being set back a lot atm. Its not the pressure or the need to go further, it just the options you have and the time that it takes to get there for people like me. Was doing fine with out LFR etc before, but now that its there and doable as a pug/casual i would like a fair changes in progression at the same rate as others that can make the weekly cap each week.

If anything i would at least like to see my cap increase with the points i dint get the past week, so when i got my free time i can no-live into my cap and not have lost a week cause of work or get stressed out cause i have to micro manage during my irregular working hours.

*edited a lot to add a lot ><*
Edited by Bufudk on 03/01/2013 23:08 GMT
90 Orc Death Knight
11540
02/01/2013 13:17Posted by Moonleg
Valor points should also not be considered the primary way of gearing your character. The idea behind Valor in MoP is for them to be a supplement to the gearing process.


Please explain how I upgrade my armor twice for a total of 8 itemlevels without VP?


Not sure upgrading counts as gearing.
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