Why Blizzard can't make 10-man version of Raid Finder

90 Night Elf Monk
8770
Not arguing, trolling nor debating. I'm just curious of why Blizzard couldn't make a 10-man version of Raid Finder. Give me a full good reason, not just "because they don't want to". Even a blue post would be nice. :)
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90 Orc Warrior
19950
Think they said somewhere aout not wanting to do 10man as it wasent as "epic" and also it would be harder for less skilled players to do, e.g you cant carry 8 people in a 10man run
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
11890
09/01/2013 13:35Posted by Mãrkules
Not arguing, trolling nor debating. I'm just curious of why Blizzard couldn't make a 10-man version of Raid Finder. Give me a full good reason, not just "because they don't want to". Even a blue post would be nice. :)


I believe the main reason is that in a 25 person environment one person screwing up doesnt not make the raid fail to kill the boss. In a 10 person environment that is much more likely. I know that people hate the idea of "carrying" people but I believe it is undeniable that any uncoordinated group like an LFR can be (and should be) expected to have people that will not know what to do and are likely (at least to start with) screw up a bit. 25 player environments quite simply makes it harder for one persons lack of skill to ruin it for everyone else. Sure they may complain and vote to kick someone doing 5k dps.... but it is unlikely to actually make a difference to the chance to kill the bosses.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
7785
1) Tank ratio of 20% vs 8% that it is now. Long queues for dps.
2) Group missing buffs proper setup very likely with random tool. If tool adds filters to prevent it, it means more cost and again longer queues.
3) A single troll/afker will hurt much more the group's success if it represends 10% of the total vs 4% of the total.
4) The system is based on some good players that are forced to do LFR since it offers significant upgrades. Those players are boosting others that cba doint their job and just auto attack. Also those players are now by majority in 10 man guilds. Swapping to 10 man LFR will allow them to queue in an organized party and that means that the soloers will get screwed.

I think that pretty much describes very well the situation, and it is the reason LFR 10 is lose/lose situation for blizzard.
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Community
25 is a better fit for LFR, most of the reasons have already been said on previous posts.
I’m more curious as to why would someone prefer 10-man over 25 in LFR?
If it’s because of performance issues then that’s a totally valid point, but other than that, I can’t see it, except for simple personal "abstract" preference, which is also fair but hard to use as an argument to try to convince devs to spend resources on creating one more difficulty level and adjust/balance LFR for 10man when 25 works just fine. It feels a bit redundant to me.

10man would probably cause higher queues and be less forgiving when raiding with inexperienced players as they would have less “backups” in the same role.

10mans are great when you have a coordinated group. It’s much easier to organize and coordinate 10 people than 25, so it makes a lot of sense for normal/heroics where someone actually has to create a raid by gathering a group of skilled players and still lead them.

But LFR doesn't require much coordination, and the group is automatically generated, so what would the advantages of 10man be? I’ve seen this suggestion before, so I’m really curious about it and not trying to be sarcastic here, maybe someone has a logical argument that I’m just not thinking about.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12230

I’m more curious as to why would someone prefer 10-man over 25 in LFR?
If it’s because of performance issues then that’s a totally valid point, but other than that, I can’t see it, except for simple personal "abstract" preference, which is also fair but hard to use as an argument to try to convince devs to spend resources on creating one more difficulty level and adjust/balance LFR for 10man when 25 works just fine. It feels a bit redundant to me.


Ah, now while I agree that 25 man LFR is the best way to go about things, I disagree that "abstract preference" is something that shouldn't be a compelling concern for the devs.

A lot of people like 10 mans over 25s for the same reason they might like purple and can't stand green. It's just their favourite. It could be because 10s are quieter and cleaner (my preference), because people are more accountable, because there's more of a chance for an individual to shine etc. etc.

I don't think something should be sidelined because it's major value lies in satisfying personal preference rather than fulfilling a game-mechanical need. If there was one pretty broad (constructive!) criticism I could level at Blizzard as game developers, it'd be that not enough emphasis is put on player preference.

Don't get me wrong, this has been improved on dramatically over the years, but it still took a very long time for us to get things like multiple difficulty levels for content, multiple paths for progression (which still needs a lot of kinks ironing out), and perhaps most importantly transmogrification (which, again, is still very restrictive).

I don't think a developer should ever underestimate how important these minor "abstract" preferences are to players, particularly in a game that many play long-term like WoW. It's important to have those abstract touches that help you identify with "your" style of gameplay, not a one-size-fits-all.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9240

I’m more curious as to why would someone prefer 10-man over 25 in LFR?


I heard some people argue that a 10 player group with 3 healers would be 2 times faster to create than a 25 people group with 6 healers (healers beeing the mots waited role for LFRs in my server). So they think they will wait less with 10 people LFRs.

Since you state it would probably cause higher queues, maybe you could elaborate on why this is not that simple!
Edited by Hbirhg on 09/01/2013 16:02 GMT
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90 Human Warlock
14380
09/01/2013 15:41Posted by Lirena
I don't think a developer should ever underestimate how important these minor "abstract" preferences are to players, particularly in a game that many play long-term like WoW. It's important to have those abstract touches that help you identify with "your" style of gameplay, not a one-size-fits-all.

There's a very real problem with offering more choice: You reduce the pool of players willing and able to come together into a given option if they're dispersed amongst many options. This then dilutes the quality of player, and by extention the quality of their experience within each option.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14355
09/01/2013 15:10Posted by Taepsilum
I’m more curious as to why would someone prefer 10-man over 25 in LFR?


From my experience, healing in a 10-man and in a 25-man settings are really different : you're far more likely to use single-target healing and triage in a 10-man while in a 25-man (especially in a less organized settings like LFR), you'll use far more aoe healing.

On a sidenote, I'm really loving the Chakrah:Chastise currently because healing in LFR is becoming really boring : the better the players, the more thumb twiddling for the healers. So it's nice to have something to do to contribute to the raid when there's not enough damage coming for 6 healers.
Edited by Sanaëe on 09/01/2013 16:14 GMT
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90 Goblin Priest
13465

I’m more curious as to why would someone prefer 10-man over 25 in LFR?


I heard some people argue that a 10 player group with 3 healers would be 2 times faster to create than a 25 people group with 6 healers (healers beeing the mots waited role for LFRs in my server). So they think they will wait less with 10 people LFRs.

Since you state it would probably cause higher queues, maybe you could elaborate on why this is not that simple!


If you take the 25 man LFR as an example.

It is no secret that quite a lot of people use LFR as an easy venue for accumulating gear, or simply as an extra source of income, there is also a lot of players recently que'ing as a spec that they don't have the gear for to fulfil that role which in tern can and does at times, cause issues and drama.
To top that of, you also have quite an extensive number of players that really don't care about how it goes, so long as they have a chance of getting some items.

All of the above means that someone in those groups, will have to make up for that lack of output no matter the role.
Tanks being the exception, as if they fail there's no one to take over on any given attempt

Say they were to implement a 10 man version of raid finder, how should they go about tuning the mechanics considering how easy they are already, if the above (which it will) playes out the same in a 10 man version?-

Should they make mechanics so forgiving ahead of time, to ensure that if a 10 man RF group had 2-4 players not being able to deliver the minimum required output, that the group would still succeed?-

and if that's the scenario, why not be realistic and put that development time into other areas of the game instead?-

In all of the above, if a 10 man version was implemented, then in theory it would take players from the overall pool of players increasing que-times in either size pending on what a player preferred at any given time.

There needs to be a line drawn somewhere, at the present state of the game, there is already more then enough ways to gain everything.
Being specific to LFR, it is already easy enough provided players put a little effort into their class as mechanics are very forgiving.
Edited by Matarack on 09/01/2013 16:24 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12230
09/01/2013 16:05Posted by Jessicka
I don't think a developer should ever underestimate how important these minor "abstract" preferences are to players, particularly in a game that many play long-term like WoW. It's important to have those abstract touches that help you identify with "your" style of gameplay, not a one-size-fits-all.

There's a very real problem with offering more choice: You reduce the pool of players willing and able to come together into a given option if they're dispersed amongst many options. This then dilutes the quality of player, and by extention the quality of their experience within each option.


With LFR, absolutely. That's one of the main reasons I don't think a 10-player alternative would be worth it. But as a general comment, I think Blizzard games err on the side of undervaluing abstract choice a little too frequently.
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Community
09/01/2013 15:41Posted by Lirena
A lot of people like 10 mans over 25s for the same reason they might like purple and can't stand green. It's just their favourite. It could be because 10s are quieter and cleaner (my preference), because people are more accountable, because there's more of a chance for an individual to shine etc. etc.

That's the kind of answer that I was looking for, when I said abstract, I meant it in a way where you can’t build a logical argument, sometimes you just like something without rationalizing about the reasoning behind it.

When you say “I like purple and can’t stand green” that’s abstract. The only way you can convince someone to adapt the world around that idea is if there’s so many people wanting the same colour that it simply doesn’t matter why they want that colour, numbers matter.

What I was looking for was actually this “10s are quieter and cleaner; people are more accountable; there's more of a chance for an individual to shine”. That’s not abstract, that’s perfectly logical and a good argument, so thanks ;)
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90 Undead Mage
9570
It's harder t o get carried in 10 man.
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Community
09/01/2013 16:11Posted by Sanaëe
From my experience, healing in a 10-man and in a 25-man settings are really different : you're far more likely to use single-target healing and triage in a 10-man while in a 25-man (especially in a less organized settings like LFR), you'll use far more aoe healing.

That’s true, play styles do change from 25 to 10 man. But I believe that’s something that affects healers the most since you have a fixed number of players that you have to heal. Tanks and damage dealers will probably only slightly change their play style due to bigger aoe packs, which is not constant and affects mostly trash mobs. Still, a valid point and a good argument!
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I’m more curious as to why would someone prefer 10-man over 25 in LFR?


I personally would like a more challenging version of a lfr tool. Additionally to the current implementation.

As like a lfd tool for 10 man normal raiding.

An idea to check the experience would be a certificate as prerequisite to join that queue.

The upcoming proving grounds could be an idea for that.

Also, it should be clear that 10N raiding would not be catered to the lfd queue. So if people would complain about 10N LFR would be too hard, they just would be ignored.
Edited by Nessaya on 09/01/2013 16:54 GMT
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90 Dwarf Warrior
5055
09/01/2013 16:44Posted by Taepsilum
From my experience, healing in a 10-man and in a 25-man settings are really different : you're far more likely to use single-target healing and triage in a 10-man while in a 25-man (especially in a less organized settings like LFR), you'll use far more aoe healing.

That’s true, play styles do change from 25 to 10 man. But I believe that’s something that affects healers the most since you have a fixed number of players that you have to heal. Tanks and damage dealers will probably only slightly change their play style due to bigger aoe packs, which is not constant and affects mostly trash mobs. Still, a valid point and a good argument!


As some post above already said. in 10 man does individual skill matter more. There is where you shine. And there are higher chances to make friends with each other.
Just like I did at 5 man dungeon, there were a lot more chatting, because group is smaller. And there we added each other the battlenet-tag. Same can be happened for 10 man.
(How less people there, how more close they are to each other).

25 man is too crowdy, anonymity is HUGE there.

But what about "LFR 10 man for Normal Raid?" with higher ilvl and achievement requirements.
So, decent players that like high difficulty can meet each other, or guilds that doesnt have enough players for raid, they can fill up the raid team with LFR 10man-Normal.
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90 Orc Shaman
13260
25 is a better fit for LFR, most of the reasons have already been said on previous posts.
I’m more curious as to why would someone prefer 10-man over 25 in LFR?
If it’s because of performance issues then that’s a totally valid point, but other than that, I can’t see it, except for simple personal "abstract" preference, which is also fair but hard to use as an argument to try to convince devs to spend resources on creating one more difficulty level and adjust/balance LFR for 10man when 25 works just fine. It feels a bit redundant to me.


Social aspect ...
in scenario's I can actually have a few words with my group
in 5m content that happens less often

I can see that in 10m there is a higher chance to have some sort of convo going than in 25m, same with a 10m bg vs a 40m bg (i.e. interaction with other players)

in 10m raids everyone needs to pull his own weight, in 25m it's fairly easy to hide and 'leech' your way to gear. All in all I think that a whole new generation of players that were educated with LFR are not forced into learning the ins and outs of their class/spec. 10m lfr would make better players overall in my opinion.
Edited by Zënga on 09/01/2013 16:57 GMT
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Progression curve could be like that:

Dungeons -> LFR 25 Man current implementation -> LFD 10N

This would allow more progression without a schedule. I am one of those people who cant play on a schedule :-)
Edited by Nessaya on 09/01/2013 16:57 GMT
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85 Undead Warlock
11155
09/01/2013 16:57Posted by Nessaya
LFD 10N


If they turned normal progression raiding cross-server the !@#$ storm would be massive.

Also LFR is crap, 25 man LFR is crap and 10 man LFR will also be crap. Getting a group might be faster, but the raid would take so much longer when half the dps alt tab and the other half are awful.
Edited by Barnacles on 09/01/2013 17:55 GMT
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3 Human Mage
0
Three reasons people want 10 man RF:

1, You actually feel like you are doing something in a 10 man even if it is easy. In a 25 I can AFK and no one will notice. Therefore when I top the meters no one will notice. I don't count, I don't matter, it makes no difference what I do. I have no value to the group. My skills and my toon are devalued.

2, Many casual/social guilds aren't interested in Normal mode as they find it too hard given that their groups are based on a social links and not on a persons ability or gear. Many would like a 10 man mode as easy as RF and with the new RF loot system which solves the problem of there not being a fixed roster each week. During the dark days of Cataclysm I was asking for a third difficulty in the form of a very easy 10 man version. I was very disappointed when Blizzard delivered...but sadly in a 25 man form.

3, If I play with a friend it actually feels like I am playing with my friend rather than then being invisible amongst the maelstrom. I'd like to share an experience with a few friends but there is little point as to all intents and purposes we might as well be in separate RF groups and just talking to each other via real ID.
Edited by Stinkyedita on 09/01/2013 18:15 GMT
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