New sceme to keep people hooked?

90 Troll Priest
13360
I just read the 5.2 patchnotes. This is a part of it:
"Each faction's finest are spearheading the assault: the Kirin-Tor Offensive led by Jaina Proudmoore and the Sunreaver Onslaught led by Lor'themar Theron. Earning reputation with these new factions offers heroes the opportunity to receive new quests and reputation rewards, including powerful items and an intimidating new mount."

So the newest way to keep people playing is to roll out new factions almost faster than we cant complete/get to exalted with them?

I was kind of hoping that the Dominance Offensive was an exception, but the above notes seems to indicate thats how its going to be from now?

Well, thats it for me then. Its not fun to aim for goals that keeps moving furter away (me being a pet-collector/mount-collector/rep-grinder above most other things). It also counters the idea of accountwide achievements, with all those reps popping up, you kind of get tied to your main toon once again? I thought we where encouraged to try different classes? Now they are easy to level, but you have no chance to catch up on the reps that gain you access to gear and so on.

Another example where more is not better....
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90 Tauren Monk
MoX
10085
02/01/2013 21:38Posted by Rosaria
Now they are easy to level, but you have no chance to catch up on the reps that gain you access to gear and so on.


As people have been saying since week 1; dailies are not mandatory unless you're a HC progressor and need the most out of your character asap. You can safely raid without doing a single daily. LFR/Normal raid pugs are there for your alts once they're 463+. JP upgrading also gives you an even further boost to your 5man HC gear.
Edited by Xunda on 02/01/2013 21:41 GMT
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26 Draenei Priest
1985
02/01/2013 21:40Posted by Xunda
As people have been saying since week 1; dailies are not mandatory unless you're a HC progressor


Saying something repeatedly won't make it true, dear.

Who says the daily rewards only benefit HC raiders? Whatever happened to good ol' casual player base? Did they suddenly stop existing because you said so? :P

I'm not going to indulge your straw man any further so I must digress.

On-topic: I fully agree with you OP, dailies appear to be Blizzard's new game design and it's working as many servile players tend to enjoy doing meaningless repetitive tasks everyday. As a vast amount of the player base is addicted and as such they have little to no restraint, so even if they want to stop they simply can't. And the other half have nothing better to do so they're content.
Edited by Nabia on 02/01/2013 21:48 GMT
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90 Orc Death Knight
7540
I agree with the OP.

The rep grind is a real pain. Blizz has already scaled back with the faction commendations so alts get the faction rep bonus from dailies doubled.

Still, if I have a profession on an alt I've to grind the rep to get patterns, schematics or recipes.

LFR is no option at all for gearing an alt. With the current loot drop rates it's taking forever to gear up a character. VP gear from faction vendors is almost the only option to get decent geared.
I guess Xunda has never been in a heroic dungeon when mail armor with spirit on it drops, but there is no shaman at all in the group. As long as this kind of nonsense happens it's almost easier to get the armor from the faction vendors instead of queuing in LFG and LFR for month to finally get a character geared.

The new patch will arrive before the the 4-piece bonus of the tire gear could be reached. And now dear Xunda, I am not using my alts to look at them. At times I also use them to do normal raids. People will inspect my gear, and they are most elitist, when it comes to demand a certain gear lvl.
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MVP - WoW, StarCraft II
90 Worgen Druid
9180
02/01/2013 21:40Posted by Xunda
As people have been saying since week 1; dailies are not mandatory unless you're a HC progressor and need the most out of your character asap. You can safely raid without doing a single daily. LFR/Normal raid pugs are there for your alts once they're 463+. JP upgrading also gives you an even further boost to your 5man HC gear.


02/01/2013 21:46Posted by Nabia
Saying something repeatedly won't make it true, dear.


It actually is true.

<Edited to prevent more off topic discussion. The point that was picked apart was not my main point, so I did not think it would be picked apart for possible thread derailment. The blue poster has instructed everyone to stay on topic, so DO NOT discuss raid setups here please! This thread is about dailies in patch 5.2.>

I barely have time to do dailies, but I am still managing to push my character on.

However, if I wanted to be the very best healer in my guild or I wanted to go ahead and join a hardcore guild, then yes, I have to do dailies to get the two pieces of blue gear I still have replaced. But how is that a bad thing? To get the very best out of my character, I have to spend more time on it. Doing dailies take time, so what's the problem here?

Seriously, it has been spelled out so many times, yet people still hang into that obviously flawed argument.

02/01/2013 21:59Posted by Avrra
LFR is no option at all for gearing an alt.


The alt argument is pretty much the only sort-of valid anti-dailies argument out there.
Edited by Danellos on 05/01/2013 21:17 GMT
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90 Orc Rogue
12020
I quit WoW at the end of Cataclysm. I have been playing about 2 weeks now. I just dinged my priest to 90. And I have to honestly say, the whole rep grind and faction thing is very very daunting to a newbie. There is noway it can be done!!. For people playing from the first day, Im sure they have made much progress. But from what I can tell, its a massive time investment. Aslong as the gear is not essential, Im going to do the odd couple every now and then. Maybe get a nice mount in a couple of patches time. Im built for comfort not speed :)
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26 Draenei Priest
1985
02/01/2013 22:48Posted by Danellos
Fact is, 25-man raids are generally quite a great deal more difficult than 10-man raids.


This is not even true in this tier. I'm not going to start a big 10manVS 25man debate because it's already been discussed ad neasuem already. BUT many fights in 10man are more difficult than their 25man counterpart for example Garajal 10 heroic which was a real road block whereas in 25man it was a joke. Another example is 10man heroic Empress which required 4 healers prior to the nerf even now we do it with 4 healers, 4 healers for a 10man is quite game breaking. Bottom-line: it really depends on the fight whether 10 or 25 is harder but I digress.

Seriously, it has been spelled out so many times, yet people still hang into that obviously flawed argument. I am also getting tired of the attitude players have of putting in minimal effort to get places in this game.


You have no business judging what another players gets up to within the game world. Of course effort should be relative to the reward but basic necessities such as valor point rewards shouldn't be tied down to such a poorly designed system which offers little alternatives to people who are not invested in doing in monotonous tasks.
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MVP
90 Human Death Knight
10595
Nabia,

I agree with your first paragraph, but not your second one.

Valor Point rewards shouldn't be seen as a "basic necessity" that everyone can use to get easy purples. That's what they've been in the past, and that was a resounding mistake. Go into the big instance, kill the bad guy - and if you need additional power to do so, then make additional effort.

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, Blizzard's position is that Valor Points gear can be used in place of a drop which RNG is preventing you from acquiring. The simple fact of the matter is that a set of Valor Points gear was far too powerful for the easy task of doing X number of five mans a week; that system needed to be replaced.

I'm all for constructive arguments regarding what the new system should be, but I'm vehemently opposed to the idea that Blizzard should re-implement the previous system. If you want a bunch of epic gear, you should have to work for it. Doing 5 mans might be time intensive, but it requires little if any skill.

I'm not trying to suggest that daily quests are difficult, but it makes Valor Points gear feel more like a back-up plan. The option is there, but it's suitably inconvenient to the point where people are more likely to get gear from as many other sources as possible. That strikes me as being close to the design intent than the Cataclysm model, where a vendor handing you powerful gear was way too commonplace.
Edited by Doomsinger on 02/01/2013 23:43 GMT
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MVP - WoW, StarCraft II
90 Worgen Druid
9180
02/01/2013 23:09Posted by Nabia
This is not even true in this tier. I'm not going to start a big 10manVS 25man debate because it's already been discussed ad neasuem already. BUT many fights in 10man are more difficult than their 25man counterpart for example Garajal 10 heroic which was a real road block whereas in 25man it was a joke. Another example is 10man heroic Empress which required 4 healers prior to the nerf even now we do it with 4 healers, 4 healers for a 10man is quite game breaking. Bottom-line: it really depends on the fight whether 10 or 25 is harder but I digress.


<Edited to prevent more off topic discussion. The blue poster has instructed everyone to stay on topic, so DO NOT discuss raid setups here please! This thread is about the dailies in patch 5.2>

We could debate forever about 10s and 25s though, but the point about dailies still stands.

02/01/2013 23:09Posted by Nabia
You have no business judging what another players gets up to within the game world.


I personally don't see anything wrong with frowning upon people who see it necessary to whine about the greater effort requirement. I am personally sick of how damn lazy this player base has become.
Edited by Danellos on 05/01/2013 21:17 GMT
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90 Tauren Druid
9820
Wait, what.... New content is a bad thing now ?

Lemme just biookmark this thread so I can refre back to it when we get the next thread complaining that Blizzard don't add new stuff enough....

Dailies interspersed with story quests make a good compromise of new and sustainable content. There has never been more choice of things to do at max level than there is now, and yet still people whine and moan.
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90 Goblin Rogue
4440

I personally don't see anything wrong with frowning upon people who see it necessary to whine about the greater effort requirement. I am personally sick of how damn lazy this player base has become.
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90 Goblin Rogue
4440
Why do people act like Bliz has an ultirior motive all the time.

They are a business FFS they are trying to make money. Every thing they do is an attempt to get people to hook into there product. Every single thing in the game is that way to make people want to play, yet you act surprised when they release content, and act like the evil corporation is trying to steal your money.

If you don't like the way they are doing it please get the F out of here. It would make us all a lot happier if instead of crying and coming up with conspiracy theory's on the forums you would just log off and go play hello kitty island adventure and leave all us "fanbois" to our game.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
12730
What would people suggest as a more elegant solution to new patch content other than dailies?
Like a lot of other people I was not impressed with the large number of daily quests that do indeed still feel required. However I'm not a games developer and after careful thought I'm not sure what else could be added to the game to lend it the longevity that most mmos have as a generic trope.

Raids and instanced content take a lot of time and money compared to daily content and they also do not guarantee content longevity, whereas daily content does. It also allows for story exposition and covers more mechanical concerns such as guaranteed gear upgrades for catch up.

That said I personally do not find it a desirable aspect of the game, so any thoughts on other methods Blizzard could use that would produce the same result as daily content without the now negative feeling towards them?
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90 Dwarf Warrior
16010
The tears of qq feed me!

But on the topic, people who cry over daily’s have no idea how to manage time. This is my alt that I've started to gear up (slowly) I got exalted with cloud serpents in under a week mainly because I wanted another serpent and the JC mounts.

Most of the time I am pet battling or farming/levelling and feel no need to do daily’s unless i want too. I don't raid normals/hc anymore due to lack of time, but in lfr I'm often top healing on my main.

Yes I know Lfr isn't the most brain tasking thing in the world, but when someone in raid gear is being out showen by a scrub in random gear (like myself) It says to me either that the gear needed isn't that much and player > gear or everyone is lazy but me? (Which i doubt cause im kinda lazy myself)
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90 Night Elf Warrior
12730
The tears of qq feed me!

But on the topic, people who cry over daily’s have no idea how to manage time.


This might well be the case but you have to admit that overall mop daily content has been very poorly received. I think part of the issue is that the gating was so blatant with literally being forced to grind Golden Lotus before other factions.

The gating was so mechanical that for a lot of people it broke their suspension of disbelief and instead of immersion within the game they saw the rabbit in the hat before the magic trick was finished. It was clumsy and this has lent a negative taint to any further daily content that Blizzard now offer us no matter how warranted that content might be in later patches.
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26 Draenei Priest
1985
03/01/2013 00:11Posted by Danellos
Empress, Spirit Kings, and Garalon. That's just three bosses. What about the rest of them? You should really give them a go on 25-man. And my reliable sources also indicate that heroic modes are quite horrid with these bosses in comparison as well.


Those 3 including Gara'jal HC I'd say these were all fights that 25man HC raiders soared through quickly. Bear in mind, I'm not talking about normal mode mainly because it doesn't matter because both formats are easy.

Let's turn the table and tell me which fights are more difficult on 25man and tell me what of each fight makes it difficult please...

Ignoring boss mechanics for your sake, 25mans have better logistics in that they offer more loot, more tier which leads to a stronger geared raid that is more DPS and HPS so they're already at an advantage in defeating encounters. I'm sure you're aware that acquiring more gear each reset nerfs encounters, something which 10man raiders are not able to access unless you get lucky.

You also have 3 battle-rezzes that's quite game breaking so regardless of what you say I can see when 25s are hard and when 10s are hard but you cannot state that one format is harder than the other over all because they're just that DIFFERENT.

25mans have that prestige from WOTLK and previous expansions that's why many players automatically assume that they're the go-to method of raiding and the only true format for serious raids. Call it nostalgia and false pretenses if you like.

03/01/2013 00:11Posted by Danellos
I personally don't see anything wrong with frowning upon people who see it necessary to whine about the greater effort requirement. I am personally sick of how damn lazy this player base has become.


Whining is a part of giving feedback and last I checked this forum was for discussion of WoW related issues regardless of what exactly it may be. If you cannot stand to see another daily related topic, simply don't read it. I cannot say this enough to people who moan about topics like this one - it's strikes me as odd to grace a thread only to moan about it's content...

What's the point of earning valor from LFR, HCs and normal/heroic raids if you have ZERO things to spend it on, it's like mental torture. You have the currency to purchase items yet you can't because of poor game design.

Variety is the spice of life, it's not fair that everyone is subjected to one game design with little alternatives, poor design if you ask me. You cannot cater to everyone but surely catering to a vast amount of your player base that don't enjoy dailies seems logical, to me at least.
Edited by Nabia on 03/01/2013 09:54 GMT
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90 Undead Death Knight
10135
03/01/2013 07:40Posted by Coriandra
Wait, what.... New content is a bad thing now ?


I think the issue is that people don't consider adding a new empty bar that we need to slowly fill over the course of a month or two (what is this, the 11th one in MoP?) to be "content".

The dominance offensive questlines were quite good. I enjoyed them quite a bit, and for once I can say that there actually is a story in WoW whereas usually I laugh at people who take the lore seriously.
The dailies/rep grind just stretched the content we want to do, with content that we're willing to endure.

I'm not sure whether "enduring in order to get to the fun part" is good game design though.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
12730
03/01/2013 09:51Posted by Kiqjaq
Wait, what.... New content is a bad thing now ?


I think the issue is that people don't consider adding a new empty bar that we need to slowly fill over the course of a month or two (what is this, the 11th one in MoP?) to be "content".
I'm not sure whether "enduring in order to get to the fun part" is good game design though.


I totally agree but what other method can Blizzard use other than dailies to tell a story and keep people logging on everyday? If they released three new instances for example and told us 'there you go, run these 300 times until you are exalted!' I am fairly sure there would be some very bored players after a week.

Maybe Blizzard just need to drop the idea of a rep grind completely, just take it out of the game bar maybe 5 or 6 factions per expansion. These could take most of the expansion to become exalted with. With that in mind they would have to focus on some other way of keeping us interested, maybe put the onus on alts as a form of story progression and back up for mains.

I'm just throwing ideas out there so don't flame me but obviously Blizzard need to address this as it is quite possibly leading to cancelled subs.
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90 Tauren Druid
9820
03/01/2013 09:47Posted by Browncat
This might well be the case but you have to admit that overall mop daily content has been very poorly received. I think part of the issue is that the gating was so blatant with literally being forced to grind Golden Lotus before other factions.


It's worth noting that as with most things, it's the negative vocal minority that shouts the most, I don't think this is indicative of the general opinion, though of course I can't be sure

I think the issue is that people don't consider adding a new empty bar that we need to slowly fill over the course of a month or two (what is this, the 11th one in MoP?) to be "content".

The dominance offensive questlines were quite good. I enjoyed them quite a bit, and for once I can say that there actually is a story in WoW whereas usually I laugh at people who take the lore seriously.
The dailies/rep grind just stretched the content we want to do, with content that we're willing to endure.

I'm not sure whether "enduring in order to get to the fun part" is good game design though.


I am also enjoying the Dominance Offensive and I hope they do a similar format with the the new Thunder King ones. Thing is I don't think it's really realistic to be able to only add story quests and expect the content to last. Imagine if they had done the story quests for Dominance / Shieldwall without the dailies - people would have finished them within a couple of hours and would be complaining that they had nothing new to do. There simply isnt enough resource to ever be able to create non repeatable content as fast as it can be consumed.

Mixing story and daily quests IMO makes for the best way to balance new content with sutainable content that will keep people busy. Personally I quite enjoy doing my dailies when I get home from work, but it is nice to see the story progressing aswell.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12925

And also, the blue post in Korea stating that they know their players want "the most challenging content" and thus are "buffing 25-man loot [to encourage the use of 25-mans]" already beat that argument into the ground a long time ago. Obviously the Asians believe that 25-man raids are more challenging.


Except they also buffed the hp bosses have and damage they do in 25mans by 8%. If you leave that part, it seems like as if Blizzard accepted that there's a big discrepancy between 10 and 25man versions in Europe/US versions of raids, but they're only rewarding Asian players for doing 25mans.

Seems like at least Blizzard thinks that there isn't a big difference or they wouldn't have buffed the bosses too...
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