Us: The 486 Requirement: Let's go back in time...

90 Worgen Druid
8660
08/01/2013 00:09Posted by Lightgoddes


Nobody has to run normal modes, theres numerous other ways to get the iLVL.

1) 496 ilvl craftables
2) Justice points gear
3) New valor points gear (will propably be like 520+ iLVL so even 1 item will get you there really quickly)
4) New dailies/reputation factions/quests
5) Valor/Justice point upgrades (not sure if old 5.0 gear will require justice or valor to upgrade in 5.2)
6) Honor points gear (483 + honor upgrades)

None of this is hard to do, or time consuming, sure it might take people 1-2 weeks of the new patch before they can enter the new LFR, but considering the new LFR won't even be up untill 1 week after 5.2 I really dont think there is much of an issue. If anything, it stimulates people to have a look around a bit instead of mindlessly pressing that que button each week, which is only a good thing I believe.


That isn`t the point. Best way to gear chars even alts is bis, almost all bis drops lfr. So why must we gimp our alts just to get the il 486 requirement? il say`s nothing a 480 can twice as good as an 490 if the 490 uses subpar gear only due to il being higher.


Since when was LFR gear BiS?
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90 Human Warrior
9560
for alts this is hard to get into but mains its a fair number tbh
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
11890
06/01/2013 19:39Posted by Excl
I am not complaining about the item level, I think it's fits perfectly.


My issue with it is that one mode's next tier should be accessible with drops from the previous tier.

Looking at LFR only as that is the only mode that has a hard imposed iLvl, DS required 373 (if I remember correctly), and there were 378 items available from the 5 person heroics of the time. It was not HARD but took some effort and time to do. T14 LFR requires 460 (for the first part) with 463 items available from the 5 person heroics. Second part of T14 requires 470 with 476 coming from the previous part of the tier. Until now all LFR's have required an iLvl that can be obtained from the previous tier or 5 person heroics. Now suddenly we have an LFR that requires 3 levels higher than the gear from the previous tier.

Maybe there should be an iLvl restriction on normal modes too...... would the normal mode raiders like to not be able to get into the next tier without ilvl 499? Sure many are over that - but many wont be.
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90 Pandaren Mage
8735
The new ilvl req is brilliant.
Stop moaning about everything Blizz does.

Instead of thinking "Bwaaaah, that ilvl is too high for me, im never gonna reach that", why not think "Alright, heres a challenge for once. How do I reach that ilvl?"


I agree, also blizzard said that they will increase drop chances in 5.0 LFR in 5.2. This will also make it easiere.

I want a challenging game, with hardcores got WAY more content then casuals, and casuals get it 1-3 months later.
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1 Human Warrior
0
The new ilvl req is brilliant.
Stop moaning about everything Blizz does.

Instead of thinking "Bwaaaah, that ilvl is too high for me, im never gonna reach that", why not think "Alright, heres a challenge for once. How do I reach that ilvl?"


I agree, also blizzard said that they will increase drop chances in 5.0 LFR in 5.2. This will also make it easiere.

I want a challenging game, with hardcores got WAY more content then casuals, and casuals get it 1-3 months later.


Basicly, you want the game to change for others. You're making a big deal out of something you don't partake in, but want nerfed so you can feel better about yourself.

Grow up.
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3 Human Mage
0


Well, one thing about this though. Raiders can get this required itemlevel purely from doing what they enjoy the most, raiding. LFR on the other hand, it's really hard to get the itemlevel required for next raid from raiding LFR alone. That's the problem.

Anyway, keep in mind it's PTR, my guess is that they will lower it to 480 when the patch comes live.


Boy did Raiders complain when they were "forced" into doing things outside of what they enjoy.

You hit the nail on the head with regards to both statements.

I will however raise an additional issue in relation to something Willemh said.
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3 Human Mage
0


I guess we disagree on one important aspect. I don't believe a progress path consisting of only LFR content is good for anyone playing this game in the long term, no matter how casual you are. The fact blizzard tries to stimulate players to look around for a bit and maiby consider doing some normal raids, some dailies, or some dungeons, instead of hitting that 'LFR que' button week in week out is good for these players in the long term.


You are 100% correct in what you set out to achieve but along with Blizzard you are dangerously wrong in the way in which you want to achieve it.

Lets look at how you are correct first:

From a players perspective it is good to have a variety of fun activities that you can pick and choose from in accordance with the amount of free time you have or your tastes.

From Blizzards perspective it can also be good. The guy doing only RF is liable to quit if he grows bored of RF or if Blizzard release a weak tier etc. So greater variety leads to more resilient subscriptions and you attract more potential customers with different tastes.

Now let's look at where you and Blizzard are frighteningly wrong:

You propose using an arbitrary ilevel restriction to bar players from using the one piece of content they do like in an attempt at “forcing” them to do content that they either lack the time to complete or that they dislike because it is not fun or they aren't interested in it.

So let's break that down further:

If a player doesn't have time to complete the optional content, by forcing them to complete it in order to access the content they do want to play, you merely force them to quit the game. They are no longer able to access and complete anything that interests them.

If a player dislikes the content (if they liked it they would already be doing it) then by forcing them to complete bad content in order to access the content they do like, you again risk forcing them to quit. They will weigh up how much they like their favourite content against how much the dislike the mandatory pre-requisites and conclude that on balance it isn't fun or worth it any more.

Now let's look at how you should achieve your goal:

The correct solution is to improve the “optional” activities or their rewards so that players do them voluntary and not because those badly designed activities are blocking access to their favourite content.

Take daily quests for example. These are incredibly unpopular and as the CRZ fiasco has shown players hate the dated mob tapping design in WoW that makes the questing more of a free for all PVP experience than the cooperative PVE experience they signed up for. I have only just started enjoying dailies now that most of the other players who ruined the experience have disappeared. I run them for the lucky coins and VP which are a good incentive if the content wasn't so irritating in the first place.

If Blizzard took a leaf out of GW2's book and solved the mob tapping issue and also removed some of the other problems (too many Klaxxi and GL dailies) and perhaps improved the rewards they would have had less complaints and more players voluntarily running and enjoying the content.

You can apply much the same rules to Dungeons, Scenarios, Pet Battles and farming etc. Look at why some/lots of players refuse to do them, ask yourself is it because it isn't fun or is it because it isn't rewarding. Then fix it so that they want to do it.

Do not leave sucky content unchanged and merely force players to run it by making it compulsory in order to gain access to the good stuff. Fix it and make them want to do it because it is good in its own right!
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90 Human Paladin
18955


That isn`t the point. Best way to gear chars even alts is bis, almost all bis drops lfr. So why must we gimp our alts just to get the il 486 requirement? il say`s nothing a 480 can twice as good as an 490 if the 490 uses subpar gear only due to il being higher.


Since when was LFR gear BiS?


Remember we are talking alts here.
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Community
And now for something completely different!

No, it's actually not different at all ;)
Just wanted to share some updated info we have with you guys: At this moment our intent is to change Thunder King’s LFR ilvl requirement to 480, we also want to lower the Honor gear in patch 5.2 from 483 to 476, compensating with some bonus PvP stats, so that the gear remains as powerful for PvP but not allow players to use it as a quick shortcut into LFR.

Like always, everything is subject to change, we’re still in PTR stage folks! And we all know that even on live things can still change, while we always strive to avoid doing that (and that’s why we have a PTR), gameplay comes first, so if a change is urgently needed, we do our best to apply it as fast as possible.
Edited by Taepsilum on 16/01/2013 14:50 GMT
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4 Dwarf Shaman
0
we also want to lower the Honor gear in patch 5.2 from 483 to 476, compensating with some bonus PvP stats, so that the gear remains as powerful for PvP but not allow players to use it as a quick shortcut into LFR.


Leave PvP honor gear alone. You already made current honor gear useless by reducing it's ilvl from 464 to 458 and quality from epic to blue and doing same mistake again. I don't see a problem being able to enter 5.2 LFR using PvP gear.
Edited by Шокохрюшка on 11/01/2013 15:08 GMT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
You should really make those 2 into separate item sets already.
PvE iLvl / PvP iLvl. One does not contribute to the other and vice versa :)

(On that note, even skills should work this way but meh)
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
14585
I dont have any problem with Lfr and Required Item ilvl.
The point is that as we are going right now.
Normals 1st tier are simply no worth on doing them.

Another thing Since the difference from the Requested Ilvl to enter with the Reward from the raids/Lfr is like 12/13 Ilvl.
Msv request to have you a 464 ilvl to enter and the reward is 476 ilvl.
Hof and Terrace is 470 ilvl to enter and reward is 483.

I assume that if the Requested ilvl to enter the new raid is gonna be 480. The Item's reward/drop. Gonna be somewhere at 492/3.

But one of the amazing thing.
If the reward is 492/493 what is the point 2 do any Raid from the 1st patch? Better reward from Msv since the item's are 489 ilvl.
And Hof/Terrace normals drop's 496 ilvl.
The worst is coming with effort. Hof and Terrace requires effort while the new raid in Lfr requires you to be...there ....2 loot...and ..
People in new raid's are gonna do smoothly for somehow 1 ..2 months? Than ...? Hiting Enrage Time on bossses 4x in a row Just because best dps is at 57k..? Following from 14k and 15k dpser's?
I have 2 weeks with main to enter Lfr. and i doubt i would re-enter. Even the vp..i found lot easier to do with Rhc. Since que time for Lfr atm hit's 1 hour++++ While Rhc is ..less than 10 min.

Anyway seeying next patch . I'm just seeying more raider's to be left alone and only viable option to become Lfr.

Even now with 3rd alt i got burned with Lfr and simply dislike killing same ..? Identic Boss.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
16220
It is a shame that Blizzard have caved into pressure from lazy people. The item level was set at 486 for a very good reason, to give new players a sense of a progress path, T14 LFR / few upgrades and then T15 LFR.

Now dispite all that Blizzard may have wanted in MoP it will be all undone and each and every teir will have people skipping all previous content.

I feel that the "We consume content too fast" thread may get reopened some time in MoP : /
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90 Worgen Mage
11000
It is a shame that Blizzard have caved into pressure from lazy people. The item level was set at 486 for a very good reason, to give new players a sense of a progress path, T14 LFR / few upgrades and then T15 LFR.

Now dispite all that Blizzard may have wanted in MoP it will be all undone and each and every teir will have people skipping all previous content.

I feel that the "We consume content too fast" thread may get reopened some time in MoP : /


That's pretty much how it will be.

460 gets you into first LFR
Get a bit of gear and @ 470 you get HoF + Terrace

Once 5.2 hits 480 is required for first part of LFR ...

Gentle it may be but progression is progression.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11000
11/01/2013 14:49Posted by Taepsilum
Just wanted to share some updated info we have with you guys: At this moment our intent is to change Thunder King’s LFR ilvl requirement to 480,

Now that sounds much better. As long as the next tier of LFR will always require lower than or equal to (especially with higher drop rates) the level of gear from the previous tier, I'm happy.

As for the PvP gear, I can't comment on that really. It does seem very low level compared to PvE gear. Although I have no idea how much PvP stats make up for that difference.

It is a shame that Blizzard have caved into pressure from lazy people. The item level was set at 486 for a very good reason, to give new players a sense of a progress path

I don't think it's good game design to have people stop doing LFR, go farm dailies for rep and VP to buy gear and then go back to LFR. I like it as an option for faster gear progression, but not something you have to do.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10490
I really liked GC's tweet

"inear progression was the worst idea you ever could return to.. you leave behind lots of alt-players and returners."
"We understand that. But the alternative is that other players feel their accomplishments have no meaning if rapid catch up exists. "

Having your accomplishments wiped out - a gear reset ever single patch - WAS frustrating. So was not being able to even set foot inside the Sunwell raid.

I think the balance they've got here - catchup with JP + LFR + VP + Upgrades, which is a LOT easier than raid attunements, without completely resetting every time so your hard won HC raid gear (I know I'm not wearing any at the moment... have in the past =) is immediately replaced.

When I hit iLevel 470 on my alt, so I could enter TOES, that felt more significant than hitting level 90. Getting revered with Golden Lotus felt more significant than hitting 90. It's not like there's a levelling process, and then you get everything else for free; your character still has to have meaningful progression, or else it because too easy and too boring.

Having said that, 480 sounds right to me. And hopefully, 5.2 LFR gear still won't be better than 5.0 raid gear. It it going to be 493, 13 iLevels above the entry requirement, like TOES and HOF? That would strike me as reasonable.
Edited by Bickel on 11/01/2013 16:14 GMT
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3 Human Mage
0
What accomplishments?

I ran RF and did dailies for a few months to get the ilevel.

Neither are an accomplishment. Both are very easy and one depends entirely on pure luck.

Regardless of that (don't want to get into whether time = accomplishment) why do I care if someone fast tracks through all that play time I had?

I just enjoyed playing WoW for the last few months right?

I mean I would be a moron of epic proportions if I paid Blizz £9 a month for something I didn't enjoy doing.

The guy catching up on his alt over night missed out on all that fun.

So what do I care if he is allowed to catch up immediately? It doesn't impact on my game experience. I log on the next day and don't even notice. Hell half those guys in 5.2 RF who caught up with me aren't even on my realm. I don't inspect them, I don't look at their achievements on the armoury to see when they dinged 90 and when they first entered a raid in MOP.

I really do not understand that "devalues accomplishments" argument at all.

How exactly do I get pleasure (as a normal healthy human being) out of someone else not being able to get into T15 RF with me? If I ever start worrying about that then please can someone shoot me.
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29 Night Elf Druid
8060
It is a shame that Blizzard have caved into pressure from lazy people. The item level was set at 486 for a very good reason, to give new players a sense of a progress path, T14 LFR / few upgrades and then T15 LFR.

Now dispite all that Blizzard may have wanted in MoP it will be all undone and each and every teir will have people skipping all previous content.

I feel that the "We consume content too fast" thread may get reopened some time in MoP : /

It's funny - you've made this post about how unfair it is that Blizzard has 'caved into pressure from lazy people' but I've just checked your achievements and you've not done any challenge modes or heroic raids. Sounds to me like you still have plenty of content waiting for you.
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Keep in mind though that when 5.2 hits most geared players will be doing 5.2 LFR and probably ignoring the previous tier ones.
That will skyrocket the (already long) queue times for those raids which will make it even more difficult (and time consuming) to get gear.
Imagine queueing for one and getting in after 1.5 hour to find out that only 1 boss remains.
Would u have the energy to queue again for the same raid ? what if u ended up on the last boss again after 1.5 (possibly longer??) hour?

P.S.
One solution would be to allow us to queue for random previous tier LFR at the same time. (can we do that now?? not sure tbh ) That would lower the queues somewhat.
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