Skill level.. cause for concern?

90 Pandaren Monk
0
I see alot of threads and posts related to player skill level and I have came across a very concerning find.. Alot of players (That I have seen) are asking for the difficulty of encounters to be reduced, I find this very counterproductive, in terms of both the counter communities opinion (The "hardcore" players) and in their own interest.You see..When a new raid comes out, a players instant responce is "lets do this, i want the gear" this is a good response, it shows a good level of motivation and passion and in correlation a need for success, this is all positive and is needed for a great community - however.. nower days when a player cannot perform to the standard needed to complete said raid, instead of picking themselves back up, learning from their mistakes and in term becoming a better, more skilled player - they ask for a nerf.

This is very counterproductive as I said before, as a players and in extension the communities skill level will never increase, it can surely only decline "use it or loose it" with the "it" (obviously meaning their current level of skill) - So as a players skill keeps decreasing in correlation the difficulty of each pre-existing raid and new raid will have to decrease to keep the players in their comfort zone.. this is a dangerous cycle that will only lead to a community who due to their lack of will and motivation have in term landed themselves with a type of learnt helplessness.What about if I'm not talented enough?Well, for the longest time, I never believed that talented existed (on a mental and cognitive level) and most definetly didnt believe in the idea that some people were destined to be outshined by others or in anyway had a mental "limit".

This burning believe lead me onto study neuroscience (science of the brain and its functions)This braught me to a new discovery by some very well documented scientists.. this discovery was "neuroplasticity" Neuroplasticity in basic words refers to your brains ability to change its structure according to your believes, experiences, thoughts, ideas and most importantly specific types of training (diliberate practice) You see, when you put diliberate practice (try until you fail) into effect, your brain starts to create new neurons across something called a neuropathway, this neuro pathway links to hemispheres of your brain together, allowing you to become more efficient and in term better at that task.. as you brain can constantly create new neurons, in theory, this means that there is no real limit to yours or anyones ability when it comes to a purely psycological standpoint.

Yes but I just cant do it!Listen to this real life story - In iceland there was a man, a farther to a loving son who suffered from a stroke, this stroke destroyed 97% of the hemisphere of his brain that controlled movement and intelligence, the poor man was reduced to a vegetable - his loving son not being able to bare to see his father this way began to contemplate a way to cure his farther (the doctors told him he would never be able to string together a real thought, let alone walk)So the son thought back to how a baby first learns to walk, first they must crawl - so with this in mind he put his farther onto the ground and moved his arms and legs until he would eventually rest in the crawl posistion, after time the farther could move his arms and legs good enough to crawl - with time the farther began to regain his lost senses and in term began to rebuild this hemisphere of the brain.The remarkable man and equally remarkable son kept up this practice until the dad could eventually walk once again, time passed by and the farther reached the point where he could mountain climb, how amazing! Even his lost intellegance got rebuilt by this process and the farther became a neuroscientist, after suffering a stroke that unfortunetly caused a loss of 97% of that particular hemisphere of the brain.

So let me ask you again, can you really not do it?

Another diliberate practice and in correlation neuroplasticity real life story.Rupert gam - A self confessed hopeless student, he could not do maths to any basic level - he couldnt add up the simplest of sums but through diliberate practice, he strengthened this neuropathway and stimulated to such an extent that he became what is known as a human calculator, a person with the ability to calculate sums of increadible difficulty in a very short space of this - with no assistance what-so-ever.This in my opinion out rules and disproves the idea of people having any limit on a purely psychological matter.With all of this in mind, I employ the community to see reason, Do not ask for a reduced difficulty level, please do not create a learnt helpessness and in extension throw yourself into a dark hole of your decreasing skill level...Rise up! Be motivated, be passionate and with time and diliberate practice.. Be the best!

Thankyou.
Edited by Syjin on 23/01/2013 00:37 GMT
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
10955
I see alot of threads and posts related to player skill level and I have came across a very concerning find.. Alot of players (That I have seen) are asking for the difficulty of encounters to be reduced, I find this very counterproductive, in terms of both the counter communities opinion (The "hardcore" players) and in their own interest.

You see..When a new raid comes out, a players instant responce is "lets do this, i want the gear" this is a good response, it shows a good level of motivation and passion and in correlation a need for success, this is all positive and is needed for a great community - however.. nower days when a player cannot perform to the standard needed to complete said raid, instead of picking themselves back up, learning from their mistakes and in term becoming a better, more skilled player - they ask for a nerf.

This is very counterproductive as I said before, as a players and in extension the communities skill level will never increase, it can surely only decline "use it or loose it" with the "it" (obviously meaning their current level of skill) - So as a players skill keeps decreasing in correlation the difficulty of each pre-existing raid and new raid will have to decrease to keep the players in their comfort zone.. this is a dangerous cycle that will only lead to a community who due to their lack of will and motivation have in term landed themselves with a type of learnt helplessness.

What about if I'm not talented enough? Well, for the longest time, I never believed that talented existed (on a mental and cognitive level) and most definetly didnt believe in the idea that some people were destined to be outshined by others or in anyway had a mental "limit".

This burning believe lead me onto study neuroscience (science of the brain and its functions)
This braught me to a new discovery by some very well documented scientists.. this discovery was "neuroplasticity" Neuroplasticity in basic words refers to your brains ability to change its structure according to your believes, experiences, thoughts, ideas and most importantly specific types of training (diliberate practice) You see, when you put diliberate practice (try until you fail) into effect, your brain starts to create new neurons across something called a neuropathway, this neuro pathway links to hemispheres of your brain together, allowing you to become more efficient and in term better at that task.. as you brain can constantly create new neurons, in theory, this means that there is no real limit to yours or anyones ability when it comes to a purely psycological standpoint.
Yes but I just cant do it!

Listen to this real life story - In iceland there was a man, a father to a loving son who suffered from a stroke, this stroke destroyed 97% of the hemisphere of his brain that controlled movement and intelligence, the poor man was reduced to a vegetable - his loving son not being able to bare to see his father this way began to contemplate a way to cure his farther (the doctors told him he would never be able to string together a real thought, let alone walk) So the son thought back to how a baby first learns to walk, first they must crawl - so with this in mind he put his farther onto the ground and moved his arms and legs until he would eventually rest in the crawl posistion, after time the farther could move his arms and legs good enough to crawl - with time the farther began to regain his lost senses and in term began to rebuild this hemisphere of the brain.

The remarkable man and equally remarkable son kept up this practice until the dad could eventually walk once again, time passed by and the farther reached the point where he could mountain climb, how amazing! Even his lost intellegance got rebuilt by this process and the farther became a neuroscientist, after suffering a stroke that unfortunetly caused a loss of 97% of that particular hemisphere of the brain.
So let me ask you again, can you really not do it? Another diliberate practice and in correlation neuroplasticity real life story.Rupert gam - A self confessed hopeless student, he could not do maths to any basic level - he couldnt add up the simplest of sums but through diliberate practice, he strengthened this neuropathway and stimulated to such an extent that he became what is known as a human calculator, a person with the ability to calculate sums of increadible difficulty in a very short space of this - with no assistance what-so-ever.This in my opinion out rules and disproves the idea of people having any limit on a purely psychological matter.

With all of this in mind, I employ the community to see reason, Do not ask for a reduced difficulty level, please do not create a learnt helpessness and in extension throw yourself into a dark hole of your decreasing skill level...Rise up! Be motivated, be passionate and with time and diliberate practice.. Be the best!Thankyou.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Hunter
11200
You are talking about a computer game - computer game not rl chalenges - if it was a single player game if player meets a wall he cant pass he either doesnt play anymore or use cheats - here he cant do it - therefore people ask for nerf - because very very big playerbase of wow doesnt look for chalenge in game only play to relive some stress or to spend time nicely - and wiping for hours on raid bosses isnt something what they are looking for - this is why they welcome nerfs with open arms - because they don't care .

U are talking about about a game and comparing overcoming something irl - sorry but for most people RL > WoW but 10000 times - why would they bother to overcome virtual chalenges for a few computer generated pixels with extreme passion ? this is simply not gonna happen - of course there is big group of people who find it fun to hit suc brickwall - they are in HC modes by now but they are 1-2% of wow population. there is like 90 % of wow population who never even are raiding at all - and guess what tey still have lots of fun while playing and dont ccare about overcoming chalenges - and this are mainly people who u refer as "unskilled who cry for nerfs" where ur wrong my friend - most of wow population dont even know neither that wow forums exists nor they cry about nerfs - cause they simply dont care. Its just a computer game for them.
Reply Quote
1 Human Mage
0
@OP

I just want to enlighten you that there probably is thousands of people, who comes home from work, exhausted both physically and psycially.

Mabey they can't bother to be an alert and active player, mabey the just want to chill.
You know slaying some pigs in the forest and loot them.

They don't have any needs to be a better player.
Edited by Galore on 22/01/2013 08:18 GMT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
9120
You are talking about a computer game - computer game not rl chalenges - if it was a single player game if player meets a wall he cant pass he either doesnt play anymore or use cheats - here he cant do it - therefore people ask for nerf - because very very big playerbase of wow doesnt look for chalenge in game only play to relive some stress or to spend time nicely - and wiping for hours on raid bosses isnt something what they are looking for - this is why they welcome nerfs with open arms - because they don't care .

U are talking about about a game and comparing overcoming something irl - sorry but for most people RL > WoW but 10000 times - why would they bother to overcome virtual chalenges for a few computer generated pixels with extreme passion ? this is simply not gonna happen - of course there is big group of people who find it fun to hit suc brickwall - they are in HC modes by now but they are 1-2% of wow population. there is like 90 % of wow population who never even are raiding at all - and guess what tey still have lots of fun while playing and dont ccare about overcoming chalenges - and this are mainly people who u refer as "unskilled who cry for nerfs" where ur wrong my friend - most of wow population dont even know neither that wow forums exists nor they cry about nerfs - cause they simply dont care. Its just a computer game for them.


Because facerolling through a videogame is fun. No it is not.

I don't understand why, if you just want to relieve some stress and not have a hard time, you started playing WoW which, OBVIOUSLY, gets progressively harder.
If you just want to relieve some stress there is plenty other things to do. If you just want to relieve some stress then why do you go do something ingame that is too hard for you? WHY DON'T YOU JUST STICK TO LFR and let others enjoy the game?

And YES it are the unskilled losers who ask for nerfs. Deal with it.
This game is not stressfull, it's not rocketscience, it's piss easy. But for the 'majority' it is stressfull to do heroic raids or challenge modes or even normal mode? I wonder what is challenging in your real life if WoW is already too hard for you.

The OP is completely right.
Challenge modes are really not that hard. They are somewhat similar to TBC heroics. But the ONLY reason why people think it is hard is because everyone is used to this piss easy joke of a content. Everyone can do challenge modes. Some only take a little longer to get used to them and figure things out. It's a game and not some very hard study like some people want to make it out to be. You press your interrupt button and silence, it's not a brickwall.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Warlock
6320
Oh just put a sock in it.

This is a game. Not life as we all may know it.
People play a game to relax, not to live.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
9120
@OP

I just want to enlighten you that there probably is thousands of people, who comes home from work, exhausted both physically and psycially.

Mabey they can't bother to be an alert and active player, mabey the just want to chill.
You know slaying some pigs in the forest and loot them.

They don't have any needs to be a better player.


No problem with that. But then don't go do normal raids or whatever and ask for nerfs. Don't ask for heroic nerfs and just go do pet battles. Or even better, go play something else that you don't have to play with other people then you can slack as much as you like without bothering others.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9060

@Björnkram

*formated wall of text*


Thanks, this helped me a lot.
------------------------------------

WoW has a huge playerbase, and while there are player who only come here to chill, raids are for those who seek challenge/excitement. While I do kind of understand why some people ask for nerfs, I also have to say, that it is a really selfish thing to do from them.
Edited by Shahei on 22/01/2013 10:15 GMT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Hunter
11200

People play a game to relax, not to live.


And now u mortally offended few hundred thousands people who dont have life outside of wow and find sense of acomplishemnt in life here -_-


No problem with that. But then don't go do normal raids or whatever and ask for nerfs. Don't ask for heroic nerfs and just go do pet battles. Or even better, go play something else that you don't have to play with other people then you can slack as much as you like without bothering others.


and why shouldn't they be doing this ? there is no 10 man verison of raid with lfr difficulty for players who enjoy doing fun content with their guild. I still dont know why blizzard can't make such version of raids which would be accesible only normal way not trough random grouping only via organized groups so that there was real easy difficulty for those who wants nerfs for normals. Then everyone would be happy - those who wanna just chill would go easy mode , those who want normal would have ave normals and HC would have HC - win -win situation for me - completly no need for nerfs etc.
Edited by Liliith on 22/01/2013 10:38 GMT
Reply Quote
22/01/2013 08:24Posted by Creasie
Because facerolling through a videogame is fun. No it is not.


For some people it is. Some people only want some mindless fun. Something they can do to relax rather than having to set their mind on overcoming a virtual challenge. That's one of the many reasons why invoking majorities in online discussions just doesn't work.

We all have our own reason to do what we do. Some want to test themselves and improve their skill, some just want to relax and have some fun time with their friends. Some don't even know what the concept of hardcore and casual gaming mean, let alone "skill" or "competitiveness" in something they may not even consider a hobby.

22/01/2013 08:24Posted by Creasie
If you just want to relieve some stress there is plenty other things to do. If you just want to relieve some stress then why do you go do something ingame that is too hard for you? WHY DON'T YOU JUST STICK TO LFR and let others enjoy the game?


You can't really asky others to not enjoy the game so you can enjoy your own vision of the game. Neither option is right. Sure, there are areas of the game specifically tailored to a particular group of players (Heroic Raids are better fit for the hardcore crowd), but that shouldn't stop you from trying something different and find out if it's fun or not for you.

And YES it are the unskilled losers who ask for nerfs. Deal with it.
This game is not stressfull, it's not rocketscience, it's piss easy. But for the 'majority' it is stressfull to do heroic raids or challenge modes or even normal mode? I wonder what is challenging in your real life if WoW is already too hard for you.


There you go, the "unskilled losers" ask for nerfs. That's a not very nice way of putting an etiquette over a group of players that may have difficulties overcoming a challenge in the game. There's no real reason why you should go out of your way to also say that then real life for those players must be incredibly difficult. We get it, you consider yourself a very skilled player in World of Warcraft, that's great.

But in a game with as many players as World of Warcraft has, you have to realize that people come from very different backgrounds, some have been playing games for years, some are just starting to discover this world... Therefore, they have different expectations of how they would like to enjoy the content.

Of course, it may look selfish to ask for nerfs if you can overcome the content at its current difficulty, but, isn't it equally selfish to deny others content just because they don't have your skill?
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
8005
Just wanted to tell you OP, you need to buy yourself an enter key for your keyboard.
Reply Quote
22/01/2013 08:24Posted by Creasie
And YES it are the unskilled losers who ask for nerfs


You're so skilled but barely have heroic raid achieves, and haven't even touched PvP.

What, is it too hard for you?

Go do pet battles until you get some skill then come back.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
15585
22/01/2013 12:07Posted by Draztal
Of course, it may look selfish to ask for nerfs if you can overcome the content at its current difficulty, but, isn't it equally selfish to deny others content just because they don't have your skill?

That's what LFR was for. It's what Blizzard has said LFR was for right from the start, yet now you still see a need to make normal modes easier.

I'm a casual player nowadays, I barely raid. I have only killed five or six bosses on normal so far, and I'm fine with that. I know the challenge is there if I ever want it, and I've seen the content already on LFR. Why should normal be made easier? Even people moving at a slow pace may like the challenge, and I for one certainly won't be doing heroics for that challenge...
Reply Quote
90 Undead Priest
8135
22/01/2013 12:07Posted by Draztal
Of course, it may look selfish to ask for nerfs if you can overcome the content at its current difficulty, but, isn't it equally selfish to deny others content just because they don't have your skill?


That wasn't the original design of the game.
I can assure you that if people thought the design behind instances such as BWL or AQ40 was unfair and not fitting, World of Warcraft would have never such a high player count and there is a reason the number of people who bought Cataclysm and MoP is so low compared to the supposed amount of active players.
4.0 was a step in the right direction, Normal raiding was challenging but not unfair as was heroic 5 man content, then you shat all over it with 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3.
Then you have the MoP 5 man content, horrible mess on the level of the worst WotLK dungeons.

You should really stick to a single design focus instead of trying to please two groups of people so radically different.
Either stick with the original design that made your game successsful or try to appeal to the new generation of players that doesn't even know there were other Warcraft games before the MMO.
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Rogue
12650
Off-topic, I find txt that is devided in chapters quite a lot easier to read :)
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3485
How I see it :
LFR is for sightseeing for the random dungeon delvers.
Normals are for the masses, casual raiders, team of friends and so on.
HC's are for those, who are willing to accept a challenge and work for it (i.e. have the Mu'ru effect)

Nothing wrong on having content to everyone, and if there's so many layers they should be kept proper for their target audience. While I can see nerfs being viable way to adjust normal content for the masses, then nerfs on HC content should always be level of tweaking not as much of making content easier. Those 5%+5% aura nerfs a la 4.3 in HC's are a no go in my books.

easy - normal - hardmode - modes is common on single player games and everyone chooses the difficulty that suits them. And so should it be here once we have the 3 layers. No need to dumb down the HC mode raids or challenge mode dungeons.

Just my flawed view point :)
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3485
Of course, it may look selfish to ask for nerfs if you can overcome the content at its current difficulty, but, isn't it equally selfish to deny others content just because they don't have your skill?


That wasn't the original design of the game.
I can assure you that if people thought the design behind instances such as BWL or AQ40 was unfair and not fitting, World of Warcraft would have never such a high player count and there is a reason the number of people who bought Cataclysm and MoP is so low compared to the supposed amount of active players.
4.0 was a step in the right direction, Normal raiding was challenging but not unfair as was heroic 5 man content, then you shat all over it with 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3.
Then you have the MoP 5 man content, horrible mess on the level of the worst WotLK dungeons.

You should really stick to a single design focus instead of trying to please two groups of people so radically different.
Either stick with the original design that made your game successsful or try to appeal to the new generation of players that doesn't even know there were other Warcraft games before the MMO.


As vanilla player I'd love to agree with you but i cannot. The growth was THE highest during WOTLK, and wotlk introduced layered raiding. Vanilla and TBC by itself only set the PR and grounds, yes. But the true mainstream and popularity came with a. good use of lore (even my mother knows who arthas is and she has never played a single computer game - and she didn't learn it from me !) b. mainstream content and less grindy content aimed at casual type of gaming.

vanilla and TBC raiding models never were the reason why game gained it's mainstream popularity. It's not backed in numbers.
Edited by Azryel on 22/01/2013 12:48 GMT
Reply Quote
90 Undead Mage
11195
I am blocked at Elegeon normal 10man.
My raid can do phase 1 without problem, but phase2 is very hard, very punishing. You separate the raid in 2 groups to deal with risen columns and we get killed of the sparks, which deals 50k per tick and with only 1 healer per group (2halers is the recommendation for this boss fight). In 6 ticks you are killed. It's too more damage. It doesn't care what we did, we got killed every time.

We have been in that damn boss for a month now, guild members keep abandoning the guild because we cannot surpass that wall, and people are loosing the motivation to continue.

So yes, i think it's fair to ask for nerfs when an upcoming raid tier is on the horizon, when the actual raid tier is more than 3 months old and when the only thing we try to do is see the actual content before the new one arrives. Is it a fair petition? I'm not asking for nerfing heroic. They should never nerf heroic, but if they cut the progression from us, deleting the upgrading gear npc, how we are supposed to kill the boss if all our tactics failed? Is it that hard for you to nerf only the sparks damage?

And for the people who are thinking "hey if normal mode its to hard for you, go LFR". I've done LFR and its so undertuned that it feels very very boring and is only worth the painly effort of doing something so boring for the valor points.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Priest
8135
22/01/2013 12:48Posted by Azryel
The growth was THE highest during WOTLK, and wotlk introduced layered raiding


You are wrong.
The game had 7 million players by the time The Burning Crusade came out, subscriber count PEAKED during Wrath of the Lich King but the growth was the highest during World of Warcraft and The Burning Crusade.
The lore also went full retard by the end of Wrath of the Lich King.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3485
22/01/2013 12:55Posted by Fyria
The growth was THE highest during WOTLK, and wotlk introduced layered raiding


You are wrong.
The game had 7 million players by the time The Burning Crusade came out, subscriber count PEAKED during Wrath of the Lich King but the growth was the highest during World of Warcraft and The Burning Crusade.
The lore also went full retard by the end of Wrath of the Lich King.


No. vanilla ended with 2, and TBc ended with 5, and WOTLk ended with tops 10-11.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]