Skill level.. cause for concern?

90 Orc Shaman
15660
I still think player, who sees LFR as their endgame, random BG as their end-game does not deserve same rewards as player who does HC raids or 2.2k arena.


Agreed 100%. This is a short, good and concise way of putting it. It is nothing but sound and solid logic, yet it will be challenged by people who are: Wait for it: CHALLENGED.

Draztal keeps going back to the point that WoW is a "Videogame" wich, while true, undermines the immense game that WoW really is. WoW used to be a world very similar to the IRL one when it first came out (besides it being virtual fantasy), in the sense that if you wanted something done you needed to:

A: Have social skills, as in be polite to your fellow players to be accepted into the community.
B: Learn how the game works and what you needed to do to get where you wanted to go.
C: Work together with others to achieve your goals. Communication was key.

A+B are no longer true, and C is something that most players see as a chore today. Result? Participation/subs/played time starts to falter.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3585
25/01/2013 04:34Posted by Masztaar
Agreed 100%. This is a short, good and concise way of putting it. It is nothing but sound and solid logic, yet it will be challenged by people who are: Wait for it: CHALLENGED.


I am 1st person to say : this is a game - we all do it for fun.

But also we are human beings and it is basic human nature to be ... ehm, or better said, feel rewarded for our achievements/deeds.

Even video games. Even single player games. Many games use trophy systems. They have online rankinks and froums, topics and they keep posting videos. Everyone pays the same fee to purchase the game, Yet no one asks : why I cannot have same sniper score on the Hitman as the next guy - nerf the sniping challenge so I would be equal.

We do not see it elsewhere, but we see that a lot in wow. WHY ?
Edited by Azryel on 25/01/2013 06:07 GMT
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90 Draenei Priest
8445

Actually you're quire wrong there. I'm a casual player and I hardly hit a LFR raid more than once in a blue moon. Heck, perhaps once a month. I am in the target group that Blizzard nerfs content for.


You think you are but I'd put it to you that the majority of people that would describe themselves as "casual" don't share your views. That was the point I was making - it doesn't matter who you are or whether you are a casual or hardcore, you do not control the credit cards of the others and they statistically tend not to share the view you are expressing.


I don't think my "credit card" earns me any rights and I don't hide behind the masses to vent my opinion either. My opinion is my own and "may" be shared by others.


They don't think their credit card earns them rights either. They don't hide behind "the masses" either. They act as individuals based on their personal preferences. However as we saw in Cataclysm, millions of players can independently come to the same conclusion and act in a similar manner...


The thing that bugs me is that people think that their 12,99 a month entitles them to guaranteed rewards. All I'm saying and have said is that 12,99 doesn't guarantee you anything. It only provides you a chance on the content.


No, you are imagining this based on the posts of a few forum users. The vast majority who don't post on the forums do not think like this. All they care about is whether they personally are enjoying themselves. If they aren't they cancel their subs.


To put it in an extreme contest what you're saying comes to me as:
"I pay 12,99 so I want the high score and all rewards after tapping 2 buttons and in one week! Cuz I payz!"


Again you are projecting this fantasy onto millions of players. They don't think of it in those terms. At the end of the month they ask "Did I enjoy playing WoW this month? Did I get much use out of it? Is it worth paying for another month?".


Tell me, why would I deserve exactly the same rewards for gaming with my 2 hours play-time a week as someone who plays 4 hours on the same content every day? If time equals money then the player playing 4 hours paid a hell of a lot more than me for the game.


Time does equal money. But Blizzard doesn't get the money when you waste large amounts of time in the game. They get the same 12,99 whether you play for one hour a week or twenty.

There are other factors - the guy spending more time in the game might be more likely to buy a realm transfer to join another raiding guild. But then the guy spending less time in the game might have a high disposable income and be more likely to buy mounts and pets. Either way I don't think we can link the amount of time a player spends in game with an increase or decrease in profitability as a customer.


nice way to put majority of the wow population these days are spoiled little brats with no brain, its true tho. Sad part is that this CM here wanna turn this game into a console game. Im just curious if this is how blizzard as a company sees it or just this guy? if so what future we can expect from wow? will we be able to play it on x-box soon with pause buttom and cheat codes?
Edited by Paskal on 25/01/2013 07:37 GMT
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90 Undead Mage
14525
25/01/2013 06:05Posted by Azryel
We do not see it elsewhere, but we see that a lot in wow. WHY ?


Probably because not everyone can get into a good raid group and so are forced to PUG it or leave it be. The quality of people you can get for PUGs varies wildly, and your selection might be quite limited on a smaller realm. Like mine, for example - I never managed to PUG Blackwing Descent on this character because it was close to impossible to get the requisite number of competent tanks or healers. If we had two steady tanks we were forced to round out the healers with a druid in blue gear. If the heals were OK one tank or both were clueless. And ofc, if all else was good you had DPS that couldn't avoid fire if their lives depended on it (and it did). Thankfully we got account-wide achievements so I could do it on my paladin, meaning there was at least one competent tank/healer to begin with.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3585
But Essea, isn't this more of a problem of realm system, where Blizzard has not focused finding solutions to realm populations rather than player skill and raiding issue? CRZ for example is generating visual of having more players, but is not solving the actual issues low population itself brings.

Isn't here wiser to brainstorm how to help small realms population and generate healthier pool of players instead i.e.nerfing content in order to help guild progress. Since likely the guild minus the 1-2 players would be able to do the content, but cannot since realm population is the real let down rather than player skill ?
Edited by Azryel on 25/01/2013 07:49 GMT
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90 Tauren Druid
8610
allthough i agree with the points above.. you must consider that the general mindset of the average human has changed..
these days, more and more people go by the principle of "i want to get more reward for lesser effort". it's a principle you see IRL aswell..
and since it works for some IRL, they reflect it onto the game they play..
people by nature are gatting more and more lazy and yet want the same rewards as before..
other people see this works for someone they know, and start doing the same thing..
the old values of "work hard = reward" are slowly being overthrown..

a huge game like WoW will always be (in a way) a reflection of todays IRL society.. there will always be good and honest hard working people, lazy people, intelligent and skilled people and utter jerks.. nothing can ever change that..

so as far as work=reward is concerned.. i feel like Heroic raids can only be tuned down when the "more skilled players and guilds" feel like it's too hard or Blizz feels like too many of them run into a wall..

same goes for normal raids.. when blizz feels like too many guilds are stuck at a certain boss, they should tune it down a bit.. cause otherwise those people being stuck will start to feel frustrated, and friendships and guilds and even subs will be lost..

as far as LFR is concerned.. well.. personally i feel it's a joke.. i should at least be a little harder so that people who use it as a stepping stone to normal raiding can at least learn something.. sadly enough, there's loads of people who are too ignorant to pay attention or just afk through it, which can result in endless wipefests..

with my guild, we are stuck at Elegon, like many others have been.. we're only here now cause we only could start raiding about 5 - 7 weeks ago.. but we know we can down him.. week after week we progress on him.. getting him down bit by bit, and slowly progressing on him.. learning on every try.. sometimes it's frustrating, but our current group is still motivated so i know we'll get him down..

i can see how it could be nerfed, and it would make our progress a little easier.. but i'd prefer to down the entire raid before it gets nerfed.. it will make our sence of accomplishment just a little better and will make out raid group tighter as friends which will only benefit towards further progression..
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3 Gnome Warrior
0
This is a game. It's supposed to be fun for those who play it. (And in this case: pay for it.)

Progressing is fun. If my guild is stuck a certain heroic boss, then it's good to know there will be a nerf to help us overcome this challenge.

It would be lame if it was easy from the beginning, it would be lame if it was nerfed too soon, it would be lame if you totally got stuck. It's fun if it's nerfed at the right pace, making you feel something you have to work against; but not something insurmountable.

So, having progressive nerfs _is just fun_. To some of the more hardcore comments in this thread ("failure in game == failure in life" etc.) I can only say: Your inability to experience fun in this game is not based on the fact that this game isn't fun, it's based on your own psychopathology.

But more to the point: I can understand the issue hardcore gamers have with nerfs and their achievements being invalidated with time. I would highly suggest to generally instituationalise (no pun intended) the process of nerfing, like it was with ICC or DS. But additionally add a note to the achievements which states exactly at what percentage of nerf a boss was defeated. Maybe add some extra reward (mount or transmog-gear) for a 0%-kill of the last boss.

People who want it hardcore can deactivate the nerfs, gain a little recognition for this and have their fun. People who like to progress less hardcore have fun on their own, progress as well, maybe minus some special mount.
Edited by Lolzgnome on 25/01/2013 10:52 GMT
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90 Tauren Druid
8610
25/01/2013 08:00Posted by Lolzgnome
People who want it hardcore can deactivate the nerfs


can never see this work.. this would mean that there's not 3 versions of a raid (LFR-normal-heroic) but there are douzens of versions.. and i highly doubt that blizzard will implement even more versions of current content..
3 is enough, and it can be nerfed by blizzard as they suit it right untill an appropriate number of guild have passed bosses or completed the raid..

if 80% of the normal raiding community is stuck at a boss i think a small tweak is well placed.. if by the other hand 75% of normal raiding guild clear content, i don't see any problems with it at all, and the instance should stay as it is, so never be nerfed again...
i intentionally only say 75%, cause if 100% could clear it while it's current, it seems too easy.. and on it's turn would upset people asking for a buff of that raid.. those 25% failing to complete will only be because they are very casual, can't raid all the time or are missing some skills to complete it.. or just have a problem with understanding certain aspects of a boss' mechanics and can't be bothered to learn them.. (and trust me, that kind of guilds exist, and they DO ask for nerfs)
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3 Gnome Warrior
0
People who want it hardcore can deactivate the nerfs


can never see this work.. this would mean that there's not 3 versions of a raid (LFR-normal-heroic) but there are douzens of versions.. and i highly doubt that blizzard will implement even more versions of current content..


But they did it before... see ICC or DS. Just without any note on the achievement.
Edited by Lolzgnome on 25/01/2013 08:40 GMT
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90 Orc Shaman
11450
The problem with improving to kill bosses is even with all the science behind the fact that we should be able to improve. Some people just can't. If a raid wants to progress they then have to replace the people who can't improve. When my old guild started doing this I was all for it. I didn't get replaced I improved and progressed. However the people who did get replaced will now not be able to improve as they can't raid.

If It wasn't for the DS nerfs I'd never have killed Deathwing HC. Not because I personally couldn't but because my raid didn't want to replace people who couldn't improve because they were either family or friends.

I agree the current content shouldn't be nerfed as it will become easier with the next tiers gear. However the final content of the expansion should be nerfed as DS was so that people who aren't HC raiders still have something to progress towards without hitting the wall.

The HC raiders who oppose this finish the raids within a few weeks maybe a month or 2 gear up then quit. Players like me played for months raiding 3 times a week pushing ourselves to complete the HC content before mists. This would be my first HC clear since I started playing. Deathwing died and Mumble went into overload with cheers. The mount dropped, one we all wanted. It went to the highest roller which happened to be our guild leader and he still uses it to this day. It felt awesome to complete even with all the nerfs to it. How can people say we don't deserve to complete the content just because it took us longer?

Some bosses we just couldn't do, then one week it was nerfed by 5% and we just managed to scrape through it. This is why Blizzard nerfs content and I'm grateful that they do.
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90 Undead Rogue
0
Problem is .
No more social guilds.
Social guilds were having the habbit of doing pugs on the lower tier or already easy to call tiers. Even for the majority of people those tier were...easy for the social guild or not so amazing progressive guild were providing fun and challenge.
From there no raider's people were having a 1st joy of Raiding.The 1st jump in to the game...and was made with the social aspect.
People steady were coming aboard in to the community of server and becoming a part of it.

How many social's Guild in Tbc/Wotlk did existed? How many now?
I recall people in such guilds by the time People were doing Sunwell ot Icc heroic some of the people were enjoying doing Kara/Grul or Magtheridon in Tbc , Or Naxx...Sartharion and close to Toc. Still people weren't qqing that weren't see Icc 25-man heroic back then.
This was something to do with progress of they're own.
You know why?
Because some people were jus't reached the max cap of lvl.
The wrong now is by the time you reach max lvl you are ..obligated to see last boss....doing Lfr.And ofc you expect to have aswell any loot because your playing alone

There isn't anything usefull to learn in Lfr like avoiding fire or do this or that..
Right now we're seeying Only Lfr.
There aren't anymore Big guilds and what are left from them Have been Raped.
In terms subs are having an decline. For me this is my almost second week that we won't raid. How this would end? Well i know not good.

Anyway there won't be any change with what they have done with the game and Skill lvl =pokemon lvl.
You play with what you get.
And since Lfr has become close to only model of raiding for new people. Expect less and less raiders...or Heroics designed for 100 guilds.
If you cannot recruit ...dooomed. No progress no nothing. And cannot recruit an Lfr guy with no ench..no gems...and simply not putting a bit effort in hes char.
Edited by Darkblazer on 25/01/2013 09:32 GMT
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90 Draenei Death Knight
16215
Several people have mentioned that back in the day Blizzard did not just threw out nerfs just for the sake of having more people beat certain bosses. I think this was mainly because of attunements (or other forms of gating).

While I agree with the decision to remove attunements in general, it did create a new problem that lies at the bottom of this whole discussion; people entering into content that is (for whatever reason) too hard for them. Back in TBC (I personally have no vanilla raid experience) you wouldn't have just a group of undergeared/underskilled people running into various 'brick walls' in Black Temple because getting into BT would require completing SSC, TK and some MH, essentially functioning as a test if people were actually geared and/or skilled enough to tackle the bosses in BT. So any group able to enter BT would have a pretty decent shot at killing at least the first few bosses there, followed by the latter bosses after farming a some more gear. What I would call normal progression.

Now fast forward to today. Billy and his 9 friends form a casual guild. They are somewhat organized, they raid together and even use some voice communication, but a few in their group of friends aren't the best raiders out there. Little Timmy plays a frost mage with fire balls in his rotation ("because they look cool"), Harry often forgets to put on blood presence when tanking and Jack just spams his biggest heal until oom. Like I said, not the brightest bunch, but they have fun raiding together. They even manage to kill most normal mode bosses. This is all fine.
But now one of them discovers that if the raid leader sets the dungeon difficulty to heroic, they do the same bosses but get better epics! OMG! Why haven't we done this all those weeks of normal mode raiding? So they enter heroic MSV and after some tries even manage to kill heroic stone guard (just because it's that easy). But then they have to do Feng. All goes fine until he suddenly picks up a shield. What's this?!? Adds? Boss at full health again? Oh no... They try and try, but they are unable to kill Feng because he keeps healing to full. So what do they do? Three of them take to the forums and make a post entitled "OMG BLIZZ FANG TO HARD NURV PLZZ NOW!!".

This is of course all exaggerated to illustrate a point: nowadays any group of people can just enter any heroic raid and engage bosses that were not tuned for their level of skill/gear. Before, you would have a decent chance of killing any boss you managed to reach, just because you had to have cleared certain other content that steadily increased in difficulty. Not just the requirement to do a normal raid before a heroic one.

This post is by no means a call to bring back old-school attunements. Because while (imho) fun, they did create problems too, mainly regarding to recruitment. But I think some kind of gating, at least for heroics, would not be a bad thing for the game. Maybe not allow a raid into heroic mode unless the leader (or x members) have killed heroic Will, Empress and Sha? With even 5.2 LFR gear at ilvl 502 and 5.2 normal gear at 522 (or 528), it should be easy enough for any guild that has any chance of killing bosses in heroic Throne of Thunder to out-gear the 5.0 content and kill those bosses. And a next raid content patch that requirement would be lifted and passed on to the next raid tier, i.e. in 5.4 ToT heroic would be freely accessible but 5.4 heroic raiding would require some heroic ToT kills. Just to avoid having to go back a bunch of tiers to attune new members.
Sure, this could easily be bypassed by buying heroic kills from better guilds or having some alt of someone in a better guild set the difficulty for you, but at this point you know what you're getting yourselves into. You know that you're getting into content for which you are not ready, but you're 'cheating' your way in anyway. When people know that raid difficulty is not intended for them (yet), they have little reason to complain about said difficulty.
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25/01/2013 01:56Posted by Masztaar
Do you personally consider that true progress? It baffles me.

Picture a group that is stuck on a boss at 30% hp constantly for, I don't know, two months. They'll definitely consider it progress when they finally move past him, and it's fine. For you that's not true progress because they didn't kill the boss on its hardest version, and it's a valid point of view as well, but that can't be a reason to block people from moving on, particularly if we keep in mind what the developers have seen when this happens: while there are guilds out there that have the will to keep on trying for as long as it's required, it's a rare treat in most other guilds, and they eventually give up.

While many people think they would easily make it into any of the Top 10 world guilds, the truth is most of them aren't.

25/01/2013 01:56Posted by Masztaar
How would I be able to tell the guys from Paragon (or any other top guilds) that I have accomplished the same thing they did, albeit a bit further down the line, when Blizzard has made that accomplishment 30% easier?

Would you really think you had? The fact you have killed a boss 30% easier doesn't mean you have become Paragon, far from it.

I wish my personal experience was of any use in this case, because from what I've seen, most people in those guilds did feel they had accomplished their personal goal (killing an end boss) but definitely didn't feel they were in the same league as the best guilds in the world. But my sample is terribly limited, so I'm not going to generalize and say that's the case for most guilds in that situation, because it'd be an outright lie.

25/01/2013 01:56Posted by Masztaar
By your logic, all my opponents in PvP should be nerfed by 30% by the end of each season, because I paid for the game and I want to have a free Gladiator title if LFR players are getting a free "Savior of Azeroth" equivalent of a title.

The Gladiator title is specifically tied to the 0.5% best players on a PVP season, so it's not the same thing. There's nothing that specifies "the Heroic end boss of a raid tier is meant to be killed only by the 0.5% best raiders of the tier", and we're talking, in any case, about something that happened on a different moment and on a different environment. WoWProgress shows Heroic Madness was defeated by around 14k+ guilds worldwide, sure, it looks like a lot, but the raid was available for almost a whole year. Fast forward to today, and this same website indicates that 260 guilds have killed Sha of Fear in Heroic (and they are getting as well the "Cutting Edge" achievement. So, if at any point the boss is nerfed, and the criteria is no longer met, they would be able to show that achievement to prove they did it without any nerfs.

Times have definitely changed in that regard (in my opinion, of course).

I am self mainly motivated by new boss kills and I do not mind really what other raiders kill or do. I have my own speed, pace and so on. I do not mind if 10 other DK's wear gear as I do, when they do content I do. Makes sense, yes ? However I roll eyes, when see that AFK guy in LFR run around with almost identical gear as I do. Without transmog feature you barely would make difference between me and the AFK-Hero, who does most cases 25k dps if not less.

The diference is that your AFK hero is wearing gear that is 26 item levels lower than yours and doesn't have stuff you do, such as vanity rewards (Glory of the Pandaria Raider and Guild Glory of the Pandaria Raider come to mind as an example).

Also, if you fancy doing challenge modes, it's very likely your AFK hero won't have the transmoggable set of gear you can get access to either.

Do not be too upset on me. You are talking to the player, who did not quit after 5 weeks of Kael'thas wipes on bench, nor 6 weeks of mu'rus wipes. And I lived trough 15-20 minute Nefarian respawn timer on vanilla, as well the complete hilarious wipe fest of Firefighter, Shadowtraps on Lich King and I sm sure am not scared of tsulong or Sha of Fear (which I believe might be block my team for a while). I am not a top raider even. I am just one of those 'raiding masses' - average Joe's of HC raiding, if you will.


You may not be a top raider in some community world ranking. Your dedication is certainly rare among players though. If you track back to M'uru, you'll probably remember that guilds were falling apart before reaching 6 weeks of wipes on him and Kael'thas was seen by many as a massive hurdle. So even if your progress spells "average Joe's of HC raiding" the fact is, when it comes to dedication, you have plenty of it, and hopefully your guild does too :)

25/01/2013 07:35Posted by Paskal
nice way to put majority of the wow population these days are spoiled little brats with no brain, its true tho. Sad part is that this CM here wanna turn this game into a console game. Im just curious if this is how blizzard as a company sees it or just this guy? if so what future we can expect from wow? will we be able to play it on x-box soon with pause buttom and cheat codes?


Oh, please, don't try to hyperbole my posts. Toning something down eventually so more people can complete it doesn't mean turning the game into a "console game", which, in the other hand, is a weird comparison, since there're plenty of challenging console games out there.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
11200
25/01/2013 04:34Posted by Masztaar
I still think player, who sees LFR as their endgame, random BG as their end-game does not deserve same rewards as player who does HC raids or 2.2k arena.


Agreed 100%. This is a short, good and concise way of putting it. It is nothing but sound and solid logic, yet it will be challenged by people who are: Wait for it: CHALLENGED.



U mean the same HC raids and arena rankings and possibly chalenge modes which boosts are already offered for gold eh ? challenge indeed especially if ur AH player.
Edited by Liliith on 25/01/2013 10:10 GMT
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80 Night Elf Druid
7890
nice way to put majority of the wow population these days are spoiled little brats with no brain, its true tho. Sad part is that this CM here wanna turn this game into a console game. Im just curious if this is how blizzard as a company sees it or just this guy? if so what future we can expect from wow? will we be able to play it on x-box soon with pause buttom and cheat codes?


The "spoiled brats" are people like you demanding that Blizzard do what you tell them.
Funny also the way you complain about WoW becoming a console game, when you'd be more suited to that crowd with the attitude you have.

The game should be about fun and co-operation, which has long been the spirit of PC gaming. All the heavily competitive, badge-of-honour and "look at me, I'm the best and if you try to take that away from me I rage" attitudes came from the console and/or FPS gamers that jumped on the WoW bandwagon a few years on.

Just shut up, enjoy the content (and plot - the thing that used to be the driving force behind these games before people like you arrived) for what it is.
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90 Goblin Warlock
19300
25/01/2013 09:55Posted by Draztal
Also, if you fancy doing challenge modes, it's very likely your AFK hero won't have the transmoggable set of gear you can get access to either.


CMs are mostly about bringing the right class. Sure, a bad DK will still be a bad DK, but overall, even solid players get shafted at CMs if they are playing the "wrong class". Right now, I can probably guess which classes are most likely to be seen in CM dungeon gear.

GC said something like, "well, all classes can get gold, but not all can get best time." You think if you're the class that has to work extra hard and is a higher liability, but can still get gold if you really, really, really try, will get picked for CMs? Or will the group just go with the class that just makes it cake?

Bit off topic, but just putting it out there. It's same with PvP. So it's not all down to AFK hero vs. solid player. Not these days.

25/01/2013 09:55Posted by Draztal
You may not be a top raider in some community world ranking. Your dedication is certainly rare among players though. If you track back to M'uru, you'll probably remember that guilds were falling apart before reaching 6 weeks of wipes on him and Kael'thas was seen by many as a massive hurdle. So even if your progress spells "average Joe's of HC raiding" the fact is, when it comes to dedication, you have plenty of it, and hopefully your guild does too :)


That's what stories are made of. That's what memories are made of. In 2013 a friend will still say, "hey, but I heard M'uru was a boss of bosses back in the day." And in 2008 or whenever that was, people were talking about it, we were checking guilds going after bosses in Sunwell. It was a story.

I don't remember anyone in our guild crying cause we were stuck 3/4 through Black Temple at the time and had an option to maaaaaybe see Kalecgos fight before expansion end. There was no obscene display of entitlement, which Blizzard has slowly conditioned into players through WotLK, Cataclysm and MoP.

What do you remember of Cataclysm today? Just that Deathwing was a horribly boring fight? Any bosses that you'll fondly remember because people were talking about them? Not really. Would it be so bad, that in a game with 300+ mounts and 400+ ridiculous mini pets and a ton of group and raid content, there would be a raid instance with a handful of bosses that would be untouched by nerfs and not part of LFR?

It would have monsters that players would talk about, watch videos about and poke hard core raiders to tell them stories about them? Would it be so bad if regular healer druid Joe with agility staff and cloth pants wouldn't get just about everything served to him on a silver platter?

Are you that a afraid that if this whole game isn't idiot proof, you'd lose customers left and right? Hold on - considering my experiences with WoW community, you don't have to answer that.


Oh, please, don't try to hyperbole my posts. Toning something down eventually so more people can complete it doesn't mean turning the game into a "console game", which, in the other hand, is a weird comparison, since there're plenty of challenging console games out there.


Blizzard itself conditioned players into this prevailing sense of entitlement. At some point during the game development, someone at Blizzard look at the declining subscription numbers and postulated, that the best solution for this was to dumb the game down. Keep throwing content at players by making it more and more accessible.

What you have grown now, is millions of players who are diametrically opposite of what a concept of a GAMER was just a few years ago. You have a cattle of subscribers who are regularly fed more and more contect adjustments so that they keep at it, but never really need to grow in skill by even a margin.

Since analogies are extremely popular when talking about WoW, here's one: I join a martial arts club. I pay my monthly fee, which, obviously, entitles me to a black belt. I pay the fee, so it's only fair I get it, right? So I take the test. I get some other color belts, but I'm not happy - I want the black one. And I expect the teacher/sensei to adjust the tests so that I can't fail.

Oh, right... that particular sensei doesn't have a conference call on Feb 7th to explain the workings of a game to a bunch of suits who think a monitor is a TV for poor people.
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90 Orc Shaman
7750
There is also the other part of the equation, that it is extremly demotivating to come closer and closer to a kill and then have it nerfed (ICC buffs come to the mind) and to feel cheated of the accomplishment.

Our guild lost many people who didn't want to raid anymore due to that mechanic, it felt like there was no point to try for them.

It is true that hard roadblocks will destroy guilds, but I'm not sure it is a bad thing. Besides the player skill, there is also a guild skill. How well the raid is lead, the people chosen, geared etc... It might be the best for the players that that guild brakes apart.

Also, keep in mind that there is a double dip effect on nerfing. Every week the raid is getting stronger with the gear they collect from farm bosses. If you are stuck at 30% for 2 months, something else is terribly wrong.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3585
1st thank you, the Blue, for daring to enter such debate and topic that is bound to tickle many opinions and minds.
You may not be a top raider in some community world ranking. Your dedication is certainly rare among players though. If you track back to M'uru, you'll probably remember that guilds were falling apart before reaching 6 weeks of wipes on him and Kael'thas was seen by many as a massive hurdle. So even if your progress spells "average Joe's of HC raiding" the fact is, when it comes to dedication, you have plenty of it, and hopefully your guild does too :)


Is it that rare ? No, this is genuine question. Is the mindset I have rare ? And isn't it that if player stays in a guild (and wider extent in a game) more to do with guild management - if we get to the point of overcoming hurdles or give up without trying.

One thing we cannot compare. We cannot say that Mu'ru's roadblock is same as if we'd have roadblock now. I explained it some thread (was it this or PTR one?) that in vanilla and TBC the only option was : kill boss or go home. Now, when you meet more challenging boss, we have LFR, VP gear (and this patch gear upgrades) and we can steadily remove the block teal by teal.

And i stress out more and again for me is huge difference - making HC content accessible to all and balancing said content to the intended level. In TBC was ONE raid format, now we have multilayered raid format. Mu'ru did break my guild. because people found that it is easier to go apply Inner Sanctum (they got plenty of our raiders listed on many following kills), but now we wouldn't even wipe 6 weeks for very reason of having so many ways to improve gear outside the boss fight+ we can learn the basics of those fights in normal. I.e. it took us under 2h to kill Lei shi in HC. Was it because of gear ? Because we good ? Or because HC version is very similar to normal version and we've practiced plenty as well used many valors and items to boost ourselves. Such was not available in TBC.

Now question is - how many guilds did break in cataclysm ? Plenty. But why ? It wasn't combat difficulty for certain.
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3 Gnome Warrior
0
25/01/2013 12:20Posted by Slakiros
There is also the other part of the equation, that it is extremly demotivating to come closer and closer to a kill and then have it nerfed (ICC buffs come to the mind) and to feel cheated of the accomplishment.


Please give me some insight here:

In ICC you could deactivate the nerf. Apparently though, there was no reward for doing so.

Let's assume there was special transmog gear or an extra mount for beating the boss without nerf. Would that remedy the situation for you?
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90 Orc Shaman
7750
25/01/2013 12:26Posted by Lolzgnome
There is also the other part of the equation, that it is extremly demotivating to come closer and closer to a kill and then have it nerfed (ICC buffs come to the mind) and to feel cheated of the accomplishment.


Please give me some insight here:

In ICC you could deactivate the nerf. Apparently though, there was no reward for doing so.

Let's assume there was special transmog gear or an extra mount for beating the boss without nerf. Would that remedy the situation for you?


We would have done it for it, but not while in the race. We were on a different server back then and among the top guilds on said server.

So it was mandatory, a false choice if I ever saw one.
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