Skill level.. cause for concern?

90 Orc Death Knight
5920
28/01/2013 16:37Posted by Draztal
If you look at the MMO world you'll see other titles do also adjust the difficulty of their content, in fact, there's a very popular case of such a boss in another MMO, which I won't name here for obvious reasons.


Why can you name Call of Duty but not another MMO?

Anyway, what MMO is he referring to?
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90 Troll Mage
11750
28/01/2013 19:48Posted by Krushem
If you look at the MMO world you'll see other titles do also adjust the difficulty of their content, in fact, there's a very popular case of such a boss in another MMO, which I won't name here for obvious reasons.


Why can you name Call of Duty but not another MMO?

Anyway, what MMO is he referring to?


Call of Duty not being a direct competitor to World of Warcraft, perhaps?
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3605

It's not "your" heroic Elegon though (neither "their" normal Elegon). But there's something that has been said on this thread that is true. As much as some hardcore players love to blame the casuals when 'their' content has been nerfed in the past, the fact is, you'll rarely see threads asking for heroic bosses to be nerfed. Sure, you'll find the occasional thread here and there, but it's far from common.


I thought use of "-" made it more clear that I do not see any boss as 'my' and my private property. But I guess I sounded wrong again.

I have told here that I do not ask nerfs, but I understand tweaks and such. And no I do not say that I blame 'casual' for nerfs (how you even read out that i did claim such ?). In fact I see myself as 'slightly advanced casual' (my dedication, and progression you read about earlier and said I was rare kind - and advanced doesn't mean skill, but just the log in times are perhaps more than casual), but I merely responded to the raised question of what is bad about nerfing normal Elegon for them. Simple - Normal Elegon and HC elegon are two different things and aimed for (imo) to two different kind of audiences. No ?

I do think that often people, who ask direct nerfs for content are people, who perhaps aim too high. I wish I could raid with Paragon, but clearly that would be too high for my league, and same is also on lower level of raids. Often people aim too high. And question is - if people aim too high, is it wise to bring bar too low ?

I do not care of 'cutting edge' achievements as I do not play for anyone else, but self. But all I've been saying I like when content is and remains true to its name during it's 'patch'.
Edited by Azryel on 28/01/2013 22:08 GMT
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28/01/2013 16:37Posted by Draztal
But there's something that has been said on this thread that is true. As much as some hardcore players love to blame the casuals when 'their' content has been nerfed in the past, the fact is, you'll rarely see threads asking for heroic bosses to be nerfed. Sure, you'll find the occasional thread here and there, but it's far from common.


Yeah. People ask not to nerf content, they ask for content. Hardmode raiders ask for hardmodes to stay challenging, normal raiders ask for raids they could progress, no matter on what difficulty.. and casual gamers like me just ask to see raid content in lfr.

Add a raid every 3 months and do not stop developing content 12 months before the expansion is over.

Thats the root of all the problems. Missing content. There wont be any need to nerf a raid for people who progressed thru normal in 3 months, if a new raid would allow them to continue to raid on normal difficulty.

Add more content, and dont nerf lfr for hardmode raiders. Dont nerf hardmode raids just to keep people progressing the same raid content over and over. Thats no solution, but just leads to people blaming those who get access to content which was never designed for them.

World of Warcraft is your most successfull game. It should get the amount of content needed to keep it alive. I wont like to see the game dying, because i love it really much. But i also wont like to be blamed because raiders think i as one of many casual gamers are responsible for hard content to be devalued for the people who worked hard for it.
Edited by Nessaya on 28/01/2013 23:33 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3605
But nessaya, but see LFR, normal and HC progression happens in different speeds. When and how should they decide how to launch content ?

I.e. I personally want 5.2 to delayed (and seeing some ranking sites like wowprogress, guildox etc it shows I might not be only one of my kind) because we are 2-3 bosses from completing.

LFR players have farmed the raid content and dailies already so their nose bleeds and then we have normal raiders, who try hand at sha, ambershaper, garalon and elegon - they (people who raid normals that is) run on own space.

Same content, same game, different audiences, different speeds. By now most of us have consumed the content offered in 5.04+ and 5.1 outside raids, but when are we ready for the 5.2 ?
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But nessaya, but see LFR, normal and HC progression happens in different speeds. When and how should they decide how to launch content ?


It even happens in different speeds for different guilds.

What is the right number? 3 months? 4 months with some daily quest patches?

I dont know the numbers. Blizzard knows all the progress numbers. They should find a way to meter that.


Same content, same game, different audiences, different speeds. By now most of us have consumed the content offered in 5.04+ and 5.1 outside raids, but when are we ready for the 5.2 ?


Lets assume, that hardmode raids even could force people to play on a race, so that hardcore guilds should have the difficulty both in the encounter and to manage them all in the time. A good guild should master the hardmodes in the average time.

Lets assume, normal mode raids are the most successfull organized raid tier, so probably the numbers of normal raid groups should be taken in account even more than hardmode progress.

LFR is not really progression, but you can balance this around drop rates. If people got a average drop rate of x%, it takes n time to get all gear in lfr. If people are more lucky, they will be done faster.

So, lfr should surely be taken into consideration, but normal raids should have the most weight about new content demands. And hardmode raids would be races as well then, no matter, how long raiding guilds would take.

Whatever solution blizzard choses (based on progression, based on time invested..) it is better than a single last raid tier and content for 7-12 months.

If you add a new raid every n months (where n is something between 3 and 5 months based on progression speed thruout all difficulties) there just would be no need to devalue content.

Its no solution to nerf a hardmode difficulty down to normal difficulty, as it just will split the community. See a lot of "casual-hardcore"-gamer flamewars in the forums as argument, where the real responsible is neither the hardcore nor the casual gamers but the missing content.

I am really tired of these forum wars, as it just does not solve the problem.
Edited by Nessaya on 28/01/2013 23:14 GMT
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Why can you name Call of Duty but not another MMO?

Anyway, what MMO is he referring to?


I named it on my Twitter account, so for anyone wondering, you can just go there and check it. If you've been following the MMO scene for the last few years, you've probably heard about that boss anyways :)

28/01/2013 22:06Posted by Azryel
Simple - Normal Elegon and HC elegon are two different things and aimed for (imo) to two different kind of audiences. No ?

There aren't really different audiences that you can put on neat little boxes, though. Of course, hardcore players will get first to the Heroic boss, and will have an easier time fighting him. But there's nothing that prevents a "normal" player from becoming "hardcore", the thing is, that's something progressive, you don't become a hardcore raider overnight, so what is just hard enough for you as a Heroic boss is still easy for the person to your left, but too hard for the person to your right.

This means it's not as simple as saying "hey, if you can't kill Elegon Heroic, stick to normals, that's your place". Because there'll surely be players that are right in-between, normals too easy for them, heroics still too hard.
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90 Undead Warlock
20365

It's not "your" heroic Elegon though (neither "their" normal Elegon). But there's something that has been said on this thread that is true. As much as some hardcore players love to blame the casuals when 'their' content has been nerfed in the past, the fact is, you'll rarely see threads asking for heroic bosses to be nerfed. Sure, you'll find the occasional thread here and there, but it's far from common.


Which begs to ask why T12 and 13 were hit with nerfs. (I know the answer will no doubt be that blizzard had the statistics, but hammering against a boss for 2-3 weeks doesn't necessarily mean you want it nerfed and that effort put to waste).

I'm totally fine with LFR existing, best thing that's happened to heroic raiders in a long time.
I'm also totally fine with normal nerfs.

What I don't get, is nerfs to heroic modes before the tier has finished. I'm hoping blizzards new stance on progressing through tiers means that any nerfs that DO come, come after the next tier is released.

Then at least I've had time to move on, I really didn't like the DS method, it's the least satisfaction I've ever had out of raiding, and I've been playing since classic. T11 I was totally fine with, enjoyed that approach to handling content a lot more. Really happy with current MOP raiding, probably the most fun I've ever had - just hope blizzard continue to hold off on the nerf button, since making progress each week is refreshing and has reinvigorating my love of the game after being brought to the point of wondering if I wanted to keep playing during DS.


This means it's not as simple as saying "hey, if you can't kill Elegon Heroic, stick to normals, that's your place". Because there'll surely be players that are right in-between, normals too easy for them, heroics still too hard.


If you're comparing Normals -> Elegon heroic, maybe - but I think there's a nice jump between Normal Sha -> HC stoneguard -> HC Feng etc.

This has frankly been one of the nicest gradual gains in difficulty I've ever seen blizzard put out, which is great.
Edited by Nagassh on 29/01/2013 11:32 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10980
Why can you name Call of Duty but not another MMO?

Anyway, what MMO is he referring to?


I named it on my Twitter account, so for anyone wondering, you can just go there and check it. If you've been following the MMO scene for the last few years, you've probably heard about that boss anyways :)


That account being?^^
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11635
As many already stated, it seems PVE content gets nerf until everyone are able to do and get everything.
So could we have a Handicap option for PVP, of course with a different name so it’s not discriminating? I would just love to see all aspects of PVP as I currently do I PVE.

See the link or can’t it be compared?
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90 Gnome Priest
6530
Whining about nerfs etc.. when they are completely optional.

We had nerfs deactivated on all our HC kills, we then went back and spammed with nerfs and props to those that did it without nerfs, it was slightly more difficult...for like one time then you know the fight and it becomes easy.

I do agree with spaz mode, tard mode, hard mode and god mode on all games, except wow, we should just have normal and hc, like we always did - when it was fun
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3605
29/01/2013 10:51Posted by Draztal
This means it's not as simple as saying "hey, if you can't kill Elegon Heroic, stick to normals, that's your place". Because there'll surely be players that are right in-between, normals too easy for them, heroics still too hard.


But I have not claimed such thing. I am merely trying (with my flawed english, bear that in mind always) to question the manner and timing of nerfs to the heroic content. On case of Dragonsoul I felt it was done too swiftly and too quickly. In T14 I've not seen nerfs, I've seen fixes and tweaks. And while changes to Sprit Kings and Vizier make them notably simpler by reducing the RNG factor, I see them quality of life changes.

And I ponder what is the formula how Blizzard decides if person "on my right" should access it ? Or how you judge if 'person on my left' did it 'wrongly' and you change it. I.e. You did change Freya and 'zone buff' from Ulduar and did not change Ambershaper P2 boss-stacking. I know Ambershapers not-changing was mainly technical, but probably not only.

How you find the middle road, when it is due to alter the difficulty on HC content (or any content) ?

BTW i know no one becomes 'hc' raider over night or in fact no one becomes a raider over night. I do respect players, who give their best in team play (even when the best is normal Elegon or heck of it LFR or 5 man dungeon and if their best is less than my auto attack, its fine too - least they try! Thats what I find important), but when you nerf content too soon/quick - isn't it dangerous to 'remove' a learning curve for those players ?

We improve in life and in game trough experience (and personal perks), but if experience is too simple and fire does not burn and voidzone does not kill - we do not learn to move from fire. If dragon's tail does not bend, we do not learn to stand on its side.
29/01/2013 12:26Posted by Shadolicious
I do agree with spaz mode, tard mode, hard mode and god mode on all games, except wow, we should just have normal and hc, like we always did - when it was fun

Always ? 1st 2 expansions was 1 format, in half of wotlk there was normal /but two raid sizes) and 1st experiments with proper HM's came on Ulduar and "hc" as term we could start using as late as T9. So no, we do not always have had options like this. And I personally believe that LFR servers its purpose, but am not sure of its execution.
Edited by Azryel on 29/01/2013 12:43 GMT
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90 Human Priest
9490
The blizz guy is right. me personally i like pvp but i also like LFR as i just want to go in and watch pretty numbers come up on dps or healing and like to get a purple item to watch the pretty numbers get higher so you can advance to next boss as your gear has gone up a lvl ,i do enough cc etc in pvp. in LFR you can have a drink and a laugh whilst watching a really great looking raid which on bosses once you know them is wrinse and repeat. maybe at top end like heroic raid they should make it a lot more cc invovled which randomly breaks as in the old days and not as a timer it will make ppl more aware not just the bosses throw a couple of extra spells but it may also put ppl off as they will wipe more often and dont have that much game time or make the raid in a challenge mode where it lowers your gear to 463 or highers it to that lvl so gear is unimportant but skill is for the Elite ppl that want that. but genarally you make the game to hard and ppl will not play it. games have got easier over the years so they can be enjoyed by all. games that sell that is
Edited by Cáitlin on 29/01/2013 13:07 GMT
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29/01/2013 11:41Posted by Gorantharon
That account being?^^


As simple as searching for my nickname on Twitter, and then checking the description of the two whopping accounts that show up on the People tab :)

29/01/2013 12:37Posted by Azryel
But I have not claimed such thing.

I didn't imply at any point you have claimed that, sorry if it came across that way.

We improve in life and in game trough experience (and personal perks), but if experience is too simple and fire does not burn and voidzone does not kill - we do not learn to move from fire. If dragon's tail does not bend, we do not learn to stand on its side.


This is definitely true. The gaming scene has changed a lot over the last 20 years, though.

While it was something very restricted to people with computers and an interest in videogames back then, now it's something mainstream where a grandmother or a complete illiterate in computers can insert a disc and start playing. And so the games, the genres, and the media itself has adapted to its new demographic. A decade ago or so, a MMO with varying difficulties, tools to find other players in a convenient way, etc, would have been seen by many as unconceivable, yet nowadays, there're players that pretty much expect those things to be in a game before they consider trying it.
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90 Orc Shaman
7750
Yes, and heroic modes are not meant for this people. Heroic modes are meant for people who didn't consider a game good unless it had a stupidly broken end boss which could only be beat by being really really good at that game.

Nothing wrong with trying to cover all bases, but the core "gamer" demographics shouldn't be left out.
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90 Orc Shaman
15865
28/01/2013 19:20Posted by Lemons
For a person that call other people dumb, you should first get your facts straight in place.

Those facts obviously had nothing to do with the point I was making, but yes - it was 2-3 months and not 3 weeks before the nerfs landed on 15%, wich was when I defeated Madness (2 raids after spine, the guild did it once before I was there). There, the facts are straight. My point still stands.

28/01/2013 19:20Posted by Lemons
Sorry couldn't resist, how does it makes him a coward? Maybe.. oh no... or... no still no idea.


Quite simple really. If someone hides behind a lvl 1, it makes it impossible to look up that person's progress. These people do so for obvious reasons, such as being able to dissect other players and their progress through the armory and spew out comments about them without risking any rebuttals, most often because they don't have any progress to show but still feel the need to attack people that do.
Another reason is to be able to be rude and disrespectful without them getting a bad reputation on the forums.

In this person's case it was most likely both. It is widely considered to be cowardly to post from level 1 alts, as those chars never have to suffer any repercussions because they don't represent the player or his/her accomplishments.

Yes, and heroic modes are not meant for this people. Heroic modes are meant for people who didn't consider a game good unless it had a stupidly broken end boss which could only be beat by being really really good at that game.

Nothing wrong with trying to cover all bases, but the core "gamer" demographics shouldn't be left out.


^This
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10980
29/01/2013 14:00Posted by Draztal
That account being?^^


As simple as searching for my nickname on Twitter, and then checking the description of the two whopping accounts that show up on the People tab :)


Success!
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3605
This is definitely true. The gaming scene has changed a lot over the last 20 years, though.

While it was something very restricted to people with computers and an interest in videogames back then, now it's something mainstream where a grandmother or a complete illiterate in computers can insert a disc and start playing. And so the games, the genres, and the media itself has adapted to its new demographic. A decade ago or so, a MMO with varying difficulties, tools to find other players in a convenient way, etc, would have been seen by many as unconceivable, yet nowadays, there're players that pretty much expect those things to be in a game before they consider trying it.


I understand that it has changed. I started myself around 10 years ago with Morrowind. Prior to that all games felt dull, kids and immature – stuff. Now I see it as entertainment like cinema, club or whatnot.

Now whole computing has come to the masses. And with the surroundings - this game has changed too. But isn’t it wise then to have content to the masses and since we already have the difficulties make HC raiding to the ’gamers’ on traditional sense ? And the granny would be able to raid HC sha too if the granny has path to learn that fire burns and you should always clear boss mods from the 'wrong timers'.

Sometimes I feel (feeling is just an emotion, not the truth ;)) as if Blizzard treats it’s player base more dumb than it actually is... and then I do LFR, 5 men, or see those people on my guild and ask myself „Was I as .. silly ... „ – I know when my 1st character got L32 I learned that i should have already picked 22 talents, but since I spoke no english at all. I was proudly 0/0/0... hey but I was heck a good healer... for a non-talented druid! But also google wasn’t as good and allakazaham was one heck of the wow-database address to type on the browser search. Thank god for wowhead, as even thottbot I constantly misspelt.
Edited by Azryel on 29/01/2013 17:59 GMT
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29/01/2013 10:51Posted by Draztal
This means it's not as simple as saying "hey, if you can't kill Elegon Heroic, stick to normals, that's your place". Because there'll surely be players that are right in-between, normals too easy for them, heroics still too hard.


Sounds as if he answered to my text, without quoting me. Dont worry, draztal. Just try a discussion.

If you got the next normal tier available while being stuck at the current hardmode progress, you at least would not feel a brick wall as you would be able to progress thru a new normal raid. And every piece of gear you would collect also would make it more possible to master the former hardmode tier once the new raid was being introduced.

So instead of nerfing hardmode content, people just would solve those bosses they couldnt master by utilizing the normal gear from the next tier.

They would not feel a brick wall, as they still would be able to progress, even if hardmode raid content didnt change in difficulty.

So heres my theory once more:

If there is no last raid tier for 7-12 months, you wont need to nerf hardmode difficulty to make it accessible to normal raiders (as like it happened in Dragon Soul, end of Cataclysm.. whichs main source problem just was missing content), as the following raid could offer an alternative way to progress in former tier hardmode content. And even if the guilds progress in new normal content, they still could play the former tier hardmodes until they master them.

Hardmode raids should be challenging. So it also would have a time frame to master the bosses at the given difficulty.

If the last raid in the expansion just would have to stay for 3-4 months, hardmode raiders would have the challenge to master it in that time. And it is challenges they are looking for.

Probably my english is bad, i beg your pardon, if it should be that way. I still hope you get what i am trying to talk about :-)
Edited by Nessaya on 29/01/2013 18:26 GMT
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