Skill level.. cause for concern?

90 Human Warlock
9250
22/01/2013 16:12Posted by Draztal
The developers get their information from plenty of sources, it's certainly not just becase "20 people throw up a moany post on the forums". Otherwise, based just on the posts you can find on this forum, you'd see game design change from one extreme to the other with every single patch, which is not really the case (even when the developers change the direction on which they're taking the game).


My point isn't about developers reacting to a minority sorry that's not where I was going with that. I didn't express myself very clearly.
My view is that even if you did have a reliable way of knowing what the "majority" wants, it still wouldn't necessarily make it a good idea. Change for the sake of change usually just creates problems where there were none before.
It feels like Blizzard is trying to run a Dictatorship like a Democracy. It just doesn't work. It's great to use and give feedback, but you can't deny that many changes have been made because of the fuss the community kicks up, be it on these forums or through other means.

Or maybe you just have too many developers that have a say, that would explain why there seems to be no direction to the game. You're trying to cater for too many different people rather than just deciding where you want to go with the game and sticking to the plan. Either way, whatever plan there was when I adored this game is no longer in action, hence I'm a casual and although I still enjoy some aspects of the game, I'm ready to give my gaming heart to another game, should a real mmorpg come along.
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90 Worgen Priest
10735
HCs in mop hard ermmm dont think so chalenge mode yes you are working aginst the clock even then its about skill and knowing your class from what I have seen a lot of players just dont have a clue on class and spec but unfotunatley its swinging in these players favor.

But the counter to this is I dont have time to learn or play properly because I work In RL and dont have time. Well geuss what I work 8hrs a day 5 days a week and I can mange to do HC dungeons with out a problem(and they are easy) and using the excusse I dont have time to learn my class but I want my epics with out the effort. and nerfs for everything because you feel its to hard let me say this. this game is no for you then .

just look at it like this like when u go to work you get paid for the work effort u put in the game should be the same effort = rewawrd not give me everything make it easy for me im entitled to have the same as everyone else if you had that attiutde where you work you would be sacked
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12660
There's always going to be a wall, a point where you have to get better. If the bar is always lowerd down to ones standards you'll never improve.

And now, when there's LFR, Normal, Heroic and even Challenges around I don't see reason to nerf things left and right.

We've just got our team back together, and it's doubtful we'll get HC Sha before 5.2, and that's perfectly fine, we weren't good enough with the little time we had, due to a !@#$ty rooster etc

People just need the accept that with progress there will be a limit in the end unless you strive to improve.
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90 Human Paladin
10130
22/01/2013 13:32Posted by Draztal
[quote="64432951495"]That's what LFR was for. It's what Blizzard has said LFR was for right from the start, yet now you still see a need to make normal modes easier.


One reason many ask for normal modes to be nerfed is simple. Raid finder is a joke its just too easy half the "abilities" dont even need to be used. i mean Feng doesnt even need interupting as an example.

The amount of time i hear on our TS "oh X player have you done LFR ?" tehy reply "yes" okay well it nothing like that.

Again, we've had normal modes cleared in 2 days from launch heck even sooner. and while i think to myself okay that a bit of a joke we then see HC version being cleared within a couple of weeks. now this does get me. HC versions of encounters being cleared wityhin weeks of launch ?.

Some of that issue lies in the fact that any given top end guild will use absolutely any means possible to drop an encounter and i can understand that and some fact is they either are paid to play and beat those encounters and raid 16 hours a day. imean they raid more in one day than i'd spend the whole week raiding full stop.

but thats there choice and i commend them for have the drive and motivation to do it. i have motivation but i wont and cant commit that kind of time to do it. i love playing wow through all its high and low and be it its faults. but plz dont tar the scrubs only ask for nerfs with people that just cant raid or give as much due to time constraints.

have you ever thought about guild own raid compositions as well ? should we drop a player that plays every week due to he could be struggling with the pure amount of movement involved ? he might just be having a bad week i agree but some players does arent as quick as others.

one of the reason players ask for those nerfs is because in the light of it half the server get left behind on guild breaker bosses. a in game friends guild disbanded last week 15/16 HC, why you ask. thoroughly annoyed of wiping and struggling to do it.

i like the DS nerfs it helped my guild to enjoy the game made it enjoyable to do it and not spend mass amount of time trying to drop a boss,

BUT and this is partly my own personal view. i see nothing wrong with guilds having to spend months on bosses. skill is one thing. gear also very much helps too and if RNG is in your particular favour it WILL make encounters easier.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3605
22/01/2013 16:12Posted by Draztal
As I mentioned on my previous post, the blog post I linked explains the reasoning the developers use to adjust certain fights.


I do not see there reasoning for nerfs, but reasoning for changes. Which I thought I covered using terms as 'tweaking' and 'hotfixing' on my post.

I do feel that bugs should be fixed and trivial mechanics players come up with - should be changed. And truth to be told the Ambershaper 'bug' should have been fixed too. I hate being 'that' permanent construct. I'd rather take the 'harder' or 'correct' version of that fight, which is of course my personal opinion. I like vehicle fights, but you do not want me to go to that rant of being stuck in 3 button spam for 2 and half phases of a boss fight. Euhm, where was I ?

I honestly feel that "adjustments" and "nerfs for general population accessibility" are two completely different things.

Correcting 'your' (you as in blizzard devs not you as CM) mistakes is perfectly fine, altering initial difficulty is fine, but what is not fine is to have those "Echoes of Doom" and general "zerg the pve content" patches we keep seeing eventually at the end of each tier. Or major content patch. For the masses (I see myself as part of the generic masses btw) untouched [but properly fixed already :> ]hc content is as important as to the 1st killers. The worst you could do to my spirit is to add 5% nerf auras or boss damage nerfs to current T14 and I say that even now, when T15 is coming out. Fair enough T15 ... we go clear that and get gear (since we are behind) and still kill THAT sha that everyone else did. And that is something raiders like me would value a lot more than pre T15, but heavily nerfed kill.
Edited by Azryel on 22/01/2013 18:02 GMT
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90 Human Paladin
10130
HCs in mop hard ermmm dont think so chalenge mode yes you are working aginst the clock even then its about skill and knowing your class from what I have seen a lot of players just dont have a clue on class and spec but unfotunatley its swinging in these players favor.

But the counter to this is I dont have time to learn or play properly because I work In RL and dont have time. Well geuss what I work 8hrs a day 5 days a week and I can mange to do HC dungeons with out a problem(and they are easy) and using the excusse I dont have time to learn my class but I want my epics with out the effort. and nerfs for everything because you feel its to hard let me say this. this game is no for you then .

just look at it like this like when u go to work you get paid for the work effort u put in the game should be the same effort = rewawrd not give me everything make it easy for me im entitled to have the same as everyone else if you had that attiutde where you work you would be sacked


people arent asking fior it to be handed to them on a plate.

where the tuning progression from LFR to say normal mode.?

LFR elegon doesnt matter if you drop 1 set of orbs doesnt matter if people stand in breathe, dont have to reset stacks.

normal mode all of the above you wipe quick.

theres such a big gap.

and dont say LFr is so you can see the encounters, whats the frickign point if the LFR version is not much liek the Normal mode ????
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oh my god Björnkram to the rescue!!! with paragraphs
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90 Night Elf Warrior
18945
the funny part is, the majority of the players whine because they have to do dailies, they whine because they have to do 5 man instances, they whine because there is a 1000 cap on valor point, and of course they whine because they have to farm 1000 valor point, etc...

Actually I think Wow stands for World of Whinecraft.....
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
14665
Since Lfr we simply loosing more and more Raider's while we're getting more?

It's kinda embarrassing seeying 5 dps all of them not even doing like 80k all of them.
1st player 18.2k dps
2nd ~~~ 18k dps.
3rd~~~ 15k dps.
4th ~~~ 13k dps.
5th~~~ 12k dps.

In all fight there like 3/4 people dead from the start.

Other's 3/4 are afking and in General 7 Dpser's 1 Tank and 2/3 healers are somehow doing all the job.

RIGHT NOW YOU SIMPLY REMOVED THE MOTIVATION ON PLAYER'S TO ENJOY THE GAME.
OR SIMPLY TO SAY TO BECOME BETTER PLAYER'S.

Right now like 90% of people are simply playing in the City league.
They dont bother if the suck.
If they gonna get bored they simply gonna quit.

There is no motivation of playing in a better league because simply it doesn't exist.

Reading Eu/Us forums aswell Mmo and seeying amazing amount of Guilds getting Disbanded and become A dust to Dust.

There no more new Guild's and Funny no 10-man that you guys applied that are more easy to make.

Saddly today i read that Vodka simply ...quite enough Merged with Exodus or in Better words Disbanded.
How many videos this Guild made?
How many people watched the videos?
The job that they were making was simply???? To attract people.
Right now gonna make some Videos about how amazing Lfr is =While Afking....Afk dead....Or press 1 button for The entire Fight>
How this activity of not doing anything can attract new people....new player's??

Everytime i have started a game i started on Normal mode.I switched in every game 2 Hard because it make me feel playing the game <My view of playing game's.>
Right now people only have .Easy mode Lfr.
Normal modes aswell Heroics modes requires Guilds. At the moment..Not enought.

Because i'm seeying in Future i'm seeying Lfr only option to raid at some point.

Gratz
Killed community.
Killed Big Guilds either 25-man either social's. Big guild's.
And Last you killed what this game was made for. Raiding.(Raiding 3 expansion was the only thing that was attracting people).

Skill lvl atm and in future=Facebook lvl<Pokemaniac> and the Snow white....

Btw Draztal<Until 2 months or half in to the expansion 34 to max 40++ people online> Current state ....10 to 14 people max.>
Many others 10-mans...Raped..
Can you fix this deny?

Were Like Titanic....
Edited by Bandicoot on 22/01/2013 18:25 GMT
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90 Undead Mage
11195
Галлифрей:
Me:
I am blocked at Elegeon normal 10man.
My raid can do phase 1 without problem, but phase2 is very hard, very punishing. You separate the raid in 2 groups to deal with risen columns and we get killed of the sparks, which deals 50k per tick and with only 1 healer per group (2halers is the recommendation for this boss fight). In 6 ticks you are killed. It's too more damage. It doesn't care what we did, we got killed every time.


One wave of sparks can't kill you if you're dropping stacks properly (even w/o any healing for entire wave).

What wave? I'm talking about cosmic sparks, not the 6 sparks that comes in waves each time faster.

Галлифрей:
Me:
which deals 50k per tick and with only 1 healer per group

33k according to my dungeon journal. 33*6=198k. This is a very low amount of damage to heal in ~13seconds, even for low geared healer(which is not your case, i assume). Keep in mind that those raids were designed for 463ilvl.

Replace your healers or check if everybody drop stacks properly. Easy as that.

I supose again that those 33k is the damage of the "each time faster" sparks upon arriving to the empyreal focus. I am not talking about those sparks. Cosmic sparks follows you and hit 50k or more each hit they land to you.

pd: Our whole raid members are roughly 480ilvl, some people like myself are 487 or more, and we still keep die-ing every time, every try we do on that damn boss, even we know it's a raid 463. We can't do better, and we can get better gear if we not kill this boss. It's like the fish that bites its own tail. We think that if this boss could be skippable (optional or something) we would have cleared this raid a month ago. Will of emperor looks like an easy fight compared to that damned cosmic dragon and his constant wipe sparks.

Nerf it, please.
Edited by Inoruk on 22/01/2013 18:46 GMT
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8 Goblin Warlock
0
Skill has nothing to do with it imo. It's the mentality of most players.

People who are terrible at something think they deserve to see all the content, because they pay as much as us. Blizzard gives in to these players, by giving them epics for doing dailies or LFR, or the 'Heroic' dungeon, or nerfing content down,... so why should they bother to try and get better in the game?

It's also these kind of people that don't achieve as much in life, cause life doesn't get 'nerfed' for them. those people think they should earn as much pay as a guy who works 10 times as hard as them because they wear the same uniform.

Lazy people are lazy
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90 Undead Warlock
20385
I am blocked at Elegeon normal 10man.
My raid can do phase 1 without problem, but phase2 is very hard, very punishing. You separate the raid in 2 groups to deal with risen columns and we get killed of the sparks, which deals 50k per tick and with only 1 healer per group (2halers is the recommendation for this boss fight). In 6 ticks you are killed. It's too more damage. It doesn't care what we did, we got killed every time.

Nerf it, please.


Isn't the problem that you're doing the fight wrong? You say you're seperating the raid into 2 groups - that's not what you're supposed to do, if you're in 2 groups then you're killing the conductors individually, which increases Elegons cast time and results in more adds - your dps should be killing conductors individually so they all die at the same time, then you get very few adds and they're not a problem.

Even if you get many adds, they can be CCd until the floor respawns and AOEd down easily. There's no reason to be getting hit by them for 50k when you can simply root and / or slow them.

Encounters don't need nerfing when the problem is that they're being executed wrong. That's like asking stoneguards to be nerfed because they keep overloading on you and they do too much damage.

22/01/2013 17:50Posted by Andith
One reason many ask for normal modes to be nerfed is simple. Raid finder is a joke its just too easy half the "abilities" dont even need to be used. i mean Feng doesnt even need interupting as an example.


Isn't that a slippery slope?

If normal is nerfed down much, then after stomping through that you'll get Post-nerf Firelands Ragnaros syndrome, if you've cleared the rest of firelands, surely that means you stand a chance at Ragnaros? But you don't, because the stepup from the nerfed content to Ragnaros is huge, so what then, nerf Ragnaros too - but then suddenly everythings nerfed and there's no challenging content left.

Nerfing normal modes too far risks the same happening here, but with heroic modes. If you clear the now nerfed normal modes, the logical conclusion would be that you're ready to start progressing on heroics - as it stands now, I'd say the stepup from normal to heroic is pretty nice, but if normals were nerfed down then it would make a swath of people faceroll through the content and then find a big step up leading into heroics that they should never have reached, because they should have still been progressing through normals.

I really think blizzard have hit the nail on the head with balancing in MOP, the progressive difficulty through normals and into heroics felt really smooth. My guilds not cutting edge, but we make progress each week. I was afraid I might be "done" with raiding after Dragonsoul, the creeping nerfs stripped a lot of the sense of achievement that usually makes raiding rewarding, but MOP has been one of the most enjoyable raiding experiences I've ever had - which came as a complete surprise. I just hope they maintain this standard of boss encounters and don't start nerfing it out from under my feet again, at least not until the tier is over.
Edited by Nagassh on 22/01/2013 19:04 GMT
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I am completely tired of the hardcore-casual war in the forums.

It is pretty useless, as draztal already posted, whats the truth about people playing this game:

22/01/2013 12:07Posted by Draztal
We all have our own reason to do what we do


I love to play the game casually. I love to play for fun, and not for accomplishments. I play a lot of alts.

I never asked to make heroic raids more easy, as it is not my content (in normal cases, just lets forget about end expansion raid difficulty nerfs).

I just want to be able to play the content. I cant play on a schedule, so it is currently impossible for me to play organized raids, even if i would like to.

I understand that there are people playing for accomplishments.

I understand that there are people who dont like what i like.

I dont want others to suffer, because i only would like to have my own personal playing style as only source of fun.

But i also dont want to suffer, because others dont like my playstyle.

Because of that i always like options over enforcing. I love to have options to level up chars or reputation.

It's fine for me to add special content for hardcore gamers, but i expect hardcore gamers to tolerate my playing style as well. And not to ask for the removal of content i play.

Instead of asking for extreme changes, try to find compromises.
Edited by Nessaya on 22/01/2013 19:22 GMT
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90 Human Death Knight
8115
I am blocked at Elegeon normal 10man.


This is exactly why we should NOT nerf raids. We attempted Elegon for the first time last night, and after 2 hours of learning the fight we downed him. If you have been stuck for a month, its a l2p issue, and therefore your group should learn their classes better in order to proceed with the raid.
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90 Undead Mage
11195
I am blocked at Elegeon normal 10man.
My raid can do phase 1 without problem, but phase2 is very hard, very punishing. You separate the raid in 2 groups to deal with risen columns and we get killed of the sparks, which deals 50k per tick and with only 1 healer per group (2halers is the recommendation for this boss fight). In 6 ticks you are killed. It's too more damage. It doesn't care what we did, we got killed every time.

Nerf it, please.


Isn't the problem that you're doing the fight wrong? You say you're seperating the raid into 2 groups - that's not what you're supposed to do, if you're in 2 groups then you're killing the conductors individually, which increases Elegons cast time and results in more adds - your dps should be killing conductors individually so they all die at the same time, then you get very few adds and they're not a problem.

Even if you get many adds, they can be CCd until the floor respawns and AOEd down easily. There's no reason to be getting hit by them for 50k when you can simply root and / or slow them.


No. The problem is not that we are doing the fight wrong. We all have looked SEVERAL guides, looked a lot of diferent video kills, and diferents way to do it.

You need to separate the raid in 2 groups (its not optional, its a must) because the columns (the correct word is "empyreal focus") needs to be killed in pairs to deactivate them, so yes, one group must go to the right and one to the left. And the 2 groups must move clockwise (or not, but) both on the same cyclic direction.

If you kill the columns individually, they won't die at the same time because:
1) Not every raider does the same dps
2) columns will die more slowly with only one dps on each column, and you could not move between them because the confronted column must be deactivated also to cross between columns.
3) cosmic sparks high damage get worse, since you cannot escape from them (there are less space because if you kill columns individually they wont die at same time).

If we cc the cosmic sparks (frost nova) tupon release they will all go to the healers, killing them and leading to a wipe. We can't slow them because we had no hunter.

We also are having troubles with one bugged column (upper left) not showing up correcly, and then its imposible to do dps on it, making it useless to dps the paired column. All the times that has happened, it appears 10-15 seconds later, but at this time it's too late. This has happened 3 or more times last week, and happens to 2-3 people on that column side, the opposite group can see it well. We don't know if its a known bug, a rare bug, or a client bug, but i doubt the last because we can see 5 columns are up and one not.

22/01/2013 18:58Posted by Nagassh
Encounters don't need nerfing when the problem is that they're being executed wrong. That's like asking stoneguards to be nerfed because they keep overloading on you and they do too much damage.


We are doing it right, but the great amount of damage (specally cosmic sparks) for a fight with only 2 healers kills us.
Please, nerf it.
Slow the sparks movement (they got me even with the increased movement feet enchant) or make them do less damage. That would be enough.
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90 Human Death Knight
8115
^ If you cant handle it, go do LFR.
Edited by Acelius on 22/01/2013 19:58 GMT
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3 Human Mage
0
I am completely tired of the hardcore-casual war in the forums.

It is pretty useless, as draztal already posted, whats the truth about people playing this game:

We all have our own reason to do what we do


I love to play the game casually. I love to play for fun, and not for accomplishments. I play a lot of alts.

I never asked to make heroic raids more easy, as it is not my content (in normal cases, just lets forget about end expansion raid difficulty nerfs).

I just want to be able to play the content. I cant play on a schedule, so it is currently impossible for me to play organized raids, even if i would like to.

I understand that there are people playing for accomplishments.

I understand that there are people who dont like what i like.

I dont want others to suffer, because i only would like to have my own personal playing style as only source of fun.

But i also dont want to suffer, because others dont like my playstyle.

Because of that i always like options over enforcing. I love to have options to level up chars or reputation.

It's fine for me to add special content for hardcore gamers, but i expect hardcore gamers to tolerate my playing style as well. And not to ask for the removal of content i play.

Instead of asking for extreme changes, try to find compromises.


The biggest joke of all was that the likes of me and you got blamed when Heroics Raids were nerfed even though we had nothing to do with it.

They didn't stop to ask why we would even want Heroic Raids nerfed! I haven't stepped foot in an organised raid since Wrath so I couldn't care less! I mean what do I care?!

Well that didn't stop the hardcore raiders blaming us.

Of course the reality was that heroic mode was nerfed because away from the world of forum boasting, Blizzard had figures showing that large numbers of hardcore raiders had actually got stuck and were quitting. I guess it is easier to blame the likes of us than look closer to home.
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90 Troll Warrior
12935
22/01/2013 12:07Posted by Draztal
Some people only want some mindless fun


Hence farmville... or even easier: LFR.

Ofc there are justified nerfs (something being not able to do based on pure numbers), but I also like a challenging game and I share the op's believes on the fact that EVERYONE can improve as long as they want to.

And I think most people want to, unless they think they will never be able to. I gave mathematics lessons after school to people who have problems with that. This certain person I talk about, was one that had a low level schooling, a bad teacher, and had already fallen behind years ago, therefore missing the right basis. You can understand this person hated math for never getting a good mark.
After a little extra homeschooling she was the best of her class... and very happy with it too. Math was now her favourite subject and she was actually teaching the whole class.

Sometimes people need to be pushed a little, but how great does it feel to actually accomplish something. People quit playing farmville and stuff because it's always the same boring routine without having something to look forward to.

As stated wow has something for all: farmville and heroic raids, to put it bluntly. But why nerf hc raids when there is farmville for those that don't want to have a hardcore gaming experience? That's what bothering me. As I said before, some nerfs are justified, but having the last raid of an expansion nerfed through the bottom so that 'everyone can see it' while LFR was invented for that is what's beating me.
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22/01/2013 20:04Posted by Stinkyedita
Of course the reality was that heroic mode was nerfed because away from the world of forum boasting, Blizzard had figures showing that large numbers of hardcore raiders had actually got stuck and were quitting. I guess it is easier to blame the likes of us than look closer to home.


Well, the source of the problem at the end of cataclysm was, that there wasnt enough content. Dragon Soul Heroic mode was nerfed at the end of the expansion down to normal difficulty at the start. At the end, the lfr mode was more challenging than the normal difficulty due to the damage/hp debuf, which was optional.

The content was meant to keep players playing for seven months, so blizzard tried to keep people playing the same content by giving access to hardmodes even to pugs.

I think that devalued hardmodes for engaged players, and should not be repeated.

I dont need to do hardmodes. I just want to see the content using lfr. Hardmodes should be for those who are very skilled and very engaged.

The best thing is to add content instead of adding 3 dungeons and one single raid for a very long time (with the need to bend it for every player difficulty)..

What had been changed in MoP up to now?

There is a lot more content compared to the time span in Cata. The time you need to progress was raised, as the vp gain was halved and diversified to dungeons, raids and daily quests. VP gear got gated via daily questing, which became a defacto prerequisite to be able to work for gear, and does not feel like an option but being mandatory.

Patch 5.2 brings some diversity, as it allows people to do dungeons and scenarios for reputation. And probably has no gating being bound to daily factions but to raiding (lfr?).

I would like to ask to remove vp gear gating completely, at least for alts if one char removed it.

What is going to happen in MoP?

I dont know. I believe we will get more daily hubs before and after the final raid tier. I dont know if 5.4 or 5.5 will be the last raid tier in mop.

I dont hope that the main addition of content compared to cataclysm will be new daily quest hubs and scenarios in patches between raid tiers patches.

While i hope that the final raid will not lose its fun for hardcore gamers, i also hope that there will be no final content for 7 or 8 months, as like it was in wotlk and cataclysm.

Also i hope, that there will be a lot more than daily quest hubs and scenarios. I hope for new dungeons as well, as i would even like to see raids after Garrosh was defeated..

There are a lot of possibilites to do raids outside of the main lore.
Edited by Nessaya on 22/01/2013 21:31 GMT
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90 Undead Mage
11195
22/01/2013 19:58Posted by Acelius
^ If you cant handle it, go do LFR.

Yeah your guild might be playing better than mine, but you need to L2read.
It was published in page 1.

I will post here again, in case you haven't L2search yet.

And for the people who are thinking "hey if normal mode its too hard for you, go LFR". I've done LFR and its so undertuned that it feels very very boring and is only worth the painly effort of doing something so boring for the valor points.


Ah, nearly forgot: Gratz
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