Skill level.. cause for concern?

16 Draenei Monk
8650


Of course, it may look selfish to ask for nerfs if you can overcome the content at its current difficulty, but, isn't it equally selfish to deny others content just because they don't have your skill?


that's where you people are profoundly wrong to the point of being unable to tell black from white. you got a sound logic, based on huge array of false arguments.

we are not selfish. we deny them nothing. in fact, we rarely notice them. they deny themselves the content, and we have nothing to do with it.

example of flawed logic: player B fails in certain challenge. player B cares not to improve. player B says content is too hard and requests nerf. blizzard checks. player A has completed it. blame is laid to player A to being selfish. WHAT??!!! :S
Edited by Aelira on 23/01/2013 09:13 GMT
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90 Human Mage
14935
According to WoWProgress, about 240 guilds have cleared all content on heroic (worldwide). That's roughly 4000 players, maybe less. I think that's fine, because heroic content should be difficult.

Looking at the realm I'm on, about 14 guilds have cleared all normal content. Most of those who have cleared normal also have at least one heroic kill, so the step from normal to easiest heroic bosses doesn't appear to be very high. Looking at around rank 50, those guilds haven't cleared Mogu'shan vaults yet and typically have one boss kill in Heart of Fear.

I think if normal difficulty was properly tuned, we would have a much larger number of guilds that have cleared normal modes of current content.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
12240
22/01/2013 19:46Posted by Inoruk
We are doing it right, but the great amount of damage (specally cosmic sparks) for a fight with only 2 healers kills us.


No, you definitely aren't doing it right. And you are denying the facts. You should read the post Nagassh wrote for you on the previous page. And also: hunters aren't the only class that can cast slows. It's also possible to move away from the sparks while the tanks pick them up.
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22 Pandaren Shaman
2240
And YES it are the unskilled losers who ask for nerfs. Deal with it.
This game is not stressfull, it's not rocketscience, it's piss easy. But for the 'majority' it is stressfull to do heroic raids or challenge modes or even normal mode? I wonder what is challenging in your real life if WoW is already too hard for you


Snorted IRL when I read this, what stuck-up diatribe! Trying to judge a players IRL abilities because of their performance in a video game? Get REAL.

Truth is, the majority of players in this game want fast, easy fun that isn't a brick-wall. They want to bomb through content and have a laugh with friends without -any/minimal- stress because you know why? THEY HAVE ENOUGH STRESS IRL, they don't expect it in a video game! They don't want to be competitive (at least what most hardcores consider so), and if you honestly can't understand that you're not worth listening too.

"This game is supposed to be about skill, it's for people with lots of time on their hands!" says WHO? Did you magically write all the rules for this game!? We all know what a rehashed lie "Vanilla and BC were super hard and took loads of skill" is, so now most of you just grab nonsense out of thin-air.

We also know what an absolute down-right stinking lie it is that "Hardcores make up the community, the community went down hill after all those casuals started playing!" I've met so-called "Hardcore" players in randoms. Some of them have been super nice, supportive and haven't minded one bit that other players aren't as good as them - "Hey, your DPS is a little low but it's fine for this content! I wont complain..." - Yet there's always the ones who are the most stuck-up, insular and rude players you could ever hope not to meet. So many "Hardcore" players are stuck in their own little bubbles NOT interacting with the community at all.

You are NOT some god-given authority in this game, and it's about time you got used to it!
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90 Undead Rogue
17895
So this troll who is bad mouthing unskilled players on his alt in hopes no one will know his main. (Panda priest on ALONSUS with 5/16 HC) He is not that skilled but I guess we all knew that.

This game when it comes to raiding is not based on personal skill cap its based on the group skill cap, every raid will have someone messing up or why else would there be a need to res anyone in combat or outside of it.

http://www.wowprogress.com/character/eu/alonsus/Creasie Just going to leave this here.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9120
So this troll who is bad mouthing unskilled players on his alt in hopes no one will know his main. (Panda priest on ALONSUS with 5/16 HC) He is not that skilled but I guess we all knew that.

This game when it comes to raiding is not based on personal skill cap its based on the group skill cap, every raid will have someone messing up or why else would there be a need to res anyone in combat or outside of it.

http://www.wowprogress.com/character/eu/alonsus/Creasie Just going to leave this here.


Yes that's what I was doing. I only forgot this character is in the same guild. Oh, I'm so stupid!

I was calling people who give up and start screaming for nerfs losers. I did it very rude indeed but I am not taking it back.

I have no problems with noobs or unskilled players. I only have problems with people who come here asking for unreasonable nerfs only for their personal benefit. This is unacceptable behaviour in my book. But if you want to support that behaviour, adults/teenagers crying for something like they are little babies, then you should do that.

You are now calling casual players not skilled yourself. That says enough. I don't do that.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9120
THEY HAVE ENOUGH STRESS IRL, they don't expect it in a video game! They don't want to be competitive (at least what most hardcores consider so), and if you honestly can't understand that you're not worth listening too.


Sure. Then go do something else in WoW or outside WoW instead of complaining about how stressful raiding is for you and say '!@#$ you' to everyone else by asking for nerfs.

I am an !@#$%^- for saying this. But when you ask for nerfs I don't want because it ruins the game for me while you have other options in WoW and I don't is oke?
They are giving people who don't want the stress from, for example, raiding so much to do yet you dare to ask for nerfs. Do you really need to have it all? This game is now catered to the 'majority' can I have my fun also? I already have to go through these heroics, the leveling, dailies and everything else beside challenge modes and raiding which are mindnumbing (not stressfull).
Edited by Creasie on 23/01/2013 10:54 GMT
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90 Night Elf Priest
15525
hardcore raiders = most (note: i said most, not all) of the smaller playerbase have no life, therefore feel the need to exhaust the life out of their pixels, get all they want to have the best from the raids for their pixels, then when all is done, some will sit in the major cities and whine about there not being enough content to keep them busy as they hate the dailies that r now available and care very little about the quests and actual story that they may have left behind power lvling to the max, keep in mind that most of u already have reached max lvls of everything and done the hardmodes quite a few times, so stop whining

the bigger playerbase like pixel fun as it equals a destress mode for most a way to escape the daily fun of reality for a few short hours maybe less, this is called having a life, we also would like to experience the 'fun' the hardcore players do, as we also pay to play this game and it is our right to have these experiences, many of us r skilled enough to handle hardcore modes, we just do not have the time to sit hours each evening exhausting our pixels when there is also so much more to experience than just raiding

the game is constantly progressing, each expansion, each patch, catering on different levels each turn to the major playerbase and to the minor playerbase, blizzard does listen and likes our constructive feedback, so stop whining, get over ur silly issues and give some constructive feedback about the game and what could be done for the community as a whole and not for a much smaller percentage of the players wants
Edited by Roselight on 23/01/2013 10:58 GMT
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90 Undead Rogue
5765
I see alot of threads and posts related to player skill level and I have came across a very concerning find.. Alot of players (That I have seen) are asking for the difficulty of encounters to be reduced, I find this very counterproductive, in terms of both the counter communities opinion (The "hardcore" players) and in their own interest.You see..When a new raid comes out, a players instant responce is "lets do this, i want the gear" this is a good response, it shows a good level of motivation and passion and in correlation a need for success, this is all positive and is needed for a great community - however.. nower days when a player cannot perform to the standard needed to complete said raid, instead of picking themselves back up, learning from their mistakes and in term becoming a better, more skilled player - they ask for a nerf.

This is very counterproductive as I said before, as a players and in extension the communities skill level will never increase, it can surely only decline "use it or loose it" with the "it" (obviously meaning their current level of skill) - So as a players skill keeps decreasing in correlation the difficulty of each pre-existing raid and new raid will have to decrease to keep the players in their comfort zone.. this is a dangerous cycle that will only lead to a community who due to their lack of will and motivation have in term landed themselves with a type of learnt helplessness.What about if I'm not talented enough?Well, for the longest time, I never believed that talented existed (on a mental and cognitive level) and most definetly didnt believe in the idea that some people were destined to be outshined by others or in anyway had a mental "limit".

This burning believe lead me onto study neuroscience (science of the brain and its functions)This braught me to a new discovery by some very well documented scientists.. this discovery was "neuroplasticity" Neuroplasticity in basic words refers to your brains ability to change its structure according to your believes, experiences, thoughts, ideas and most importantly specific types of training (diliberate practice) You see, when you put diliberate practice (try until you fail) into effect, your brain starts to create new neurons across something called a neuropathway, this neuro pathway links to hemispheres of your brain together, allowing you to become more efficient and in term better at that task.. as you brain can constantly create new neurons, in theory, this means that there is no real limit to yours or anyones ability when it comes to a purely psycological standpoint.

Yes but I just cant do it!Listen to this real life story - In iceland there was a man, a farther to a loving son who suffered from a stroke, this stroke destroyed 97% of the hemisphere of his brain that controlled movement and intelligence, the poor man was reduced to a vegetable - his loving son not being able to bare to see his father this way began to contemplate a way to cure his farther (the doctors told him he would never be able to string together a real thought, let alone walk)So the son thought back to how a baby first learns to walk, first they must crawl - so with this in mind he put his farther onto the ground and moved his arms and legs until he would eventually rest in the crawl posistion, after time the farther could move his arms and legs good enough to crawl - with time the farther began to regain his lost senses and in term began to rebuild this hemisphere of the brain.The remarkable man and equally remarkable son kept up this practice until the dad could eventually walk once again, time passed by and the farther reached the point where he could mountain climb, how amazing! Even his lost intellegance got rebuilt by this process and the farther became a neuroscientist, after suffering a stroke that unfortunetly caused a loss of 97% of that particular hemisphere of the brain.

So let me ask you again, can you really not do it?

Another diliberate practice and in correlation neuroplasticity real life story.Rupert gam - A self confessed hopeless student, he could not do maths to any basic level - he couldnt add up the simplest of sums but through diliberate practice, he strengthened this neuropathway and stimulated to such an extent that he became what is known as a human calculator, a person with the ability to calculate sums of increadible difficulty in a very short space of this - with no assistance what-so-ever.This in my opinion out rules and disproves the idea of people having any limit on a purely psychological matter.With all of this in mind, I employ the community to see reason, Do not ask for a reduced difficulty level, please do not create a learnt helpessness and in extension throw yourself into a dark hole of your decreasing skill level...Rise up! Be motivated, be passionate and with time and diliberate practice.. Be the best!

Thankyou.

tldr
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90 Pandaren Monk
9120
You can't really asky others to not enjoy the game so you can enjoy your own vision of the game. Neither option is right. Sure, there are areas of the game specifically tailored to a particular group of players (Heroic Raids are better fit for the hardcore crowd), but that shouldn't stop you from trying something different and find out if it's fun or not for you.


This is also very funny to hear.

I am playing the game how it is. I am not asking for nerfs. I am not asking others to not enjoy the game so I can enjoy my own vision of the game. They are doing that.

I am also not denying content from others because they don't have as much "skill" as me. It is just selfish to ask for unreasonable nerfs especially when you can overcome these difficulties by simply playing the game and not even getting better at playing it. You can overgear the content for example.
Is it reasonable to ruin someones gameplay just because that person has more "skill" while you have so many other options (other features besides raiding or LFR) and tools (gear you can obtain) available to you? So what is more reasonable Draztal? Please answer me that instead of telling me that I am rude.
Edited by Creasie on 23/01/2013 11:12 GMT
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90 Goblin Priest
13465
So this troll who is bad mouthing unskilled players on his alt in hopes no one will know his main. (Panda priest on ALONSUS with 5/16 HC) He is not that skilled but I guess we all knew that.

This game when it comes to raiding is not based on personal skill cap its based on the group skill cap, every raid will have someone messing up or why else would there be a need to res anyone in combat or outside of it.

http://www.wowprogress.com/character/eu/alonsus/Creasie Just going to leave this here.


Wether or not a player have completed everything from day 1 til now on every released difficulty have nothing to do with this thread..!
Poor souls, are you so high strung that when someone says something needs to be nerfed, and it's countered by help from various players and they refuse to take it, that you then turn the thread into a mud wrestling arena?

The fact remains that no content in normal is difficult, or overtuned if that word is more appropriate to you.
Perhaps the real issue is the difference going from LFR to normal, but that shouldn't mean normal modes should be lowered yet again, as that would also mean heroics would get the axe by default to accommodate "bad" play-styles, or rather, "bad" players.

I doubt it's a question of nerfing normal or heroic content as the two difficulties are pretty damn perfect this time around, but more a question of increasing the difficulty in LFR to make players aware, that raid content moving into the next difficulty, requires both communication, preparation and a reasonable amount of skill, or at least the will to improve in both encounter mechanics and utilizing the character your playing!

If you take the low end of the scale of guilds who are strugling in normal mode now, there could be a torrent of reasons as to why, an increasing nerf wouldn't mean they suddenly complete a specific boss.., should that then mean the screw just gets another couple of turns until they are able to bypass several, if not all mechanics?- if that's the case, they might as well not nerf content and just mail some items to these players.

If you take the middle packs who've cleared normal modes, and most are progressing on heroics or about to start on it, where are they left in all this`?- again there could be multiple reasons as to why they've not gone further which isn't taken into consideration with nerfing content.

Let me take my own guild as an example, our primary reason is lack of capable players, or it used to for a period of nearly 1½ month, which even resulted in me cancelling raids, and also a couple of nights where "maintenance" made it so players couldn't log on for raids, again resulting in me cancelling raids.
We're not at the buttom, but we're definitely also not at the top, our progress is tied very much into the material of players we're able to recruit, and it's been a nightmare this time around honestly, as most players seem to think their ready for heroic content despite only having Msv cleared in LFR modes.

There is an absolute disconnect between players and raiding, and I can personally only find one source which could be the cause of this disconnect.., perpetual axing content to make sure no bad players are quitting, but it's at the expense of everyone seeking the challenge in raids!
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90 Human Paladin
18810
Had to jump agree with op here for the following experiences.

1) My monk il 461 no gems no enchants which is ww monk. outdpsed over 50% of the dps (all were 468+ gemmed) in his first lfr with 45-55k averga dps.

2) lfr is not punishing enough, if you keep standing far away with chain without breaking the chain in lfr. let him die, oke you take an inocent melee with you. Same goes for no moving at fen fire or which spirit world trololol at mr troll. This just the first lfr of 5 can go one ages liek this.

3) getting sick personaly of people doign way to low dps for il (ps an il 467 warrior 17k in dps spec = pro, min was 10k). If you are just autoattacking or afk`ing then leave. People ignoring even the slightest of tacts leaving that usaly up to me and others. I spent whole fights in the spirit world because me and 2 other dps were the only doing it. Nicest thing was that the i ignore tacts guy wa slook at my dps scrubs above you 3 with huge margin. Really i just wanted to hit him. But even if almost evyrone ignores obvious tacts or doe slow dps we manage to kill bosses...
Edited by Lightgoddes on 23/01/2013 13:23 GMT
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90 Draenei Paladin
9375
Isnt all of this kind of redundant (the people complaining about nerfs) as for those of you that want the challenge, when raid nerfs come, blizz usually include a mechanism to turn them off. And im pretty sure (although never done them) this is true for Hard modes raids?

As far as LFR, you have 25 players, with no voice communication being used, ninja pulling, not ready checking etc etc, what do you expect? LFR is not a neccessity, skip it and go straight to normals with valor gear if you dont like it

They are tuning encounters for a large proportion of their 10million players.......

For those of you upset about it easy raids, go play Final Fantasy 11 and some of their bosses (some that take liiterally hours to down), then you may come back to WoW and not feel so hard done by :p
Edited by Yunalesca on 23/01/2013 12:26 GMT
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90 Goblin Priest
18955

Invoking an unquantitive "some" doesn't make your argument any more valid than his. The problem with you guys at Blizzard nowadays is that rather than having a philosophy / image of a direction you want to take the game in, you buckle in when 20 people throw up a moany post on the forums. You can't develop a game based on the whims of a few, as you said, but it's what you do.

My friends and me used to be extremely loyal and full of praise for Blizzard, never in the first expansion (tbc) did we swear "f*****ing Blizzard" like we hear all over the place these days. We adored the game.

Nowadays the game is messy, there is no ultimate goal, there is no sense of a community grouping up to fight against a common ennemy, it has become a solo game where guilds are used only for their perks, and players expect to be rewarded for just logging into the game, claiming they are "paying customers". The most active people in trade and general chat are pvp boosters. Rated pvp is now a farce, more often than not a player with a high rating in RBG or arena has been boosted.

I'm not angry that my favourite game has lost it's mojo.

I'm disappointed and sad.


You summed up my feelings pretty much. I've played on and off since Vanilla and I feel that the philosophy of the game nowdays is "Avoid unsubs" and then its all about those quick fixes that keep you hooked and not going to another MMO.

I play this game for several reasons. First of all the social aspects, I keep login in because my friends play the game. Then its the familiarity aspect, I "know" this game inside and out, I feel like its part of my life. Lastly its the competative aspect, the only actual gameplay that I enjoy.

But lets step away from myself and see the bigger picture of nerfing content. From what I understand from the blogpost Draztal posted, Blizzard consider "nerfing" content when they see dips in the rate of how guilds progress. I can understand the reasoning behind this, but I cant see why it would be a good thing in the long run. Because what you essentially do then is killing motivation. There is no need to nerf heroics. Eventually people will outgear it so much that the "fail threshold" is so high that most people will kill it. It might take a content patch or two, but just wait!

So the argument is that it kills the spirit of the player who bangs his head against an encounter for months. And even if I can respect that in a sense, I dont see how thats possible. This player can do lots of things to improve his gameplay and thus be able to kill heroic bosses. Anyone can kill any boss, the game is actually made for it! You may not want to put in the extra effort it takes to be able to kill it, but why should you then get the achivement?

I dont think Blizzard should be this parent that promotes a certain behaviour but if you dont put up some obstacles in the way of success then it will just be a downward spiral where everyone feel entitled to everything for minimal effort. It is not like we dont have any content for the "masses" - there are plenty.

So leave heroic raids alone. Leave heroic raids to heroic raiders. Its not the pinnacle of WoW for everyone, and if you feel its the pinnacle for you, then you would want to put in the extra effort.
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90 Human Hunter
13715
I only really do the bare minium of what's necessary to to raid nowadays because what was once its own little fanatsy world you could explore and lose yourself in is now a toddler safe amusement park that tries to satisfy as many playstyles as possible by just flinging different versions of the same ride in one place.
It's kind of to video games what McDonald's is to food.
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70 Orc Death Knight
7805
23/01/2013 12:46Posted by Doremy
tries to satisfy as many playstyles as possible


Business 101, Appeal to a big audience, get larger amount of customers.. And it's worked, ~10 mil players say so.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9120
Isnt all of this kind of redundant (the people complaining about nerfs) as for those of you that want the challenge, when raid nerfs come, blizz usually include a mechanism to turn them off. And im pretty sure (although never done them) this is true for Hard modes raids?

As far as LFR, you have 25 players, with no voice communication being used, ninja pulling, not ready checking etc etc, what do you expect? LFR is not a neccessity, skip it and go straight to normals with valor gear if you dont like it

They are tuning encounters for a large proportion of their 10million players.......

For those of you upset about it easy raids, go play Final Fantasy 11 and some of their bosses (some that take liiterally hours to down), then you may come back to WoW and not feel so hard done by :p


I've had discussions about this a hundred times on these and other forums. Everytime I am being constructive barely anyone listens. Now that I make a sort of rage comment I get a blue post who makes it highlight on many websites and I get attention from the same people who ignored my constructive posts. Go figure.

Obviously it's pointless to discuss this again. I really don't have the feeling that giving constructive feedback is appreciated this way so they can forget about it.
If Blizzard wants constructive feedback they should moderate these forums properly and actually respond on good threads more frequently instead of replying to someone who just had a bad morning and got sick of comments that have been discussed a hundred times before.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12025
22/01/2013 12:49Posted by Inoruk
I am blocked at Elegeon normal 10man.

Log off.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9120


Of course, it may look selfish to ask for nerfs if you can overcome the content at its current difficulty, but, isn't it equally selfish to deny others content just because they don't have your skill?


that's where you people are profoundly wrong to the point of being unable to tell black from white. you got a sound logic, based on huge array of false arguments.

we are not selfish. we deny them nothing. in fact, we rarely notice them. they deny themselves the content, and we have nothing to do with it.

example of flawed logic: player B fails in certain challenge. player B cares not to improve. player B says content is too hard and requests nerf. blizzard checks. player A has completed it. blame is laid to player A to being selfish. WHAT??!!! :S


Exactly :S
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90 Draenei Priest
8445
22/01/2013 12:07Posted by Draztal
Because facerolling through a videogame is fun. No it is not.


For some people it is. Some people only want some mindless fun. Something they can do to relax rather than having to set their mind on overcoming a virtual challenge. That's one of the many reasons why invoking majorities in online discussions just doesn't work.

We all have our own reason to do what we do. Some want to test themselves and improve their skill, some just want to relax and have some fun time with their friends. Some don't even know what the concept of hardcore and casual gaming mean, let alone "skill" or "competitiveness" in something they may not even consider a hobby.

If you just want to relieve some stress there is plenty other things to do. If you just want to relieve some stress then why do you go do something ingame that is too hard for you? WHY DON'T YOU JUST STICK TO LFR and let others enjoy the game?


You can't really asky others to not enjoy the game so you can enjoy your own vision of the game. Neither option is right. Sure, there are areas of the game specifically tailored to a particular group of players (Heroic Raids are better fit for the hardcore crowd), but that shouldn't stop you from trying something different and find out if it's fun or not for you.

And YES it are the unskilled losers who ask for nerfs. Deal with it.
This game is not stressfull, it's not rocketscience, it's piss easy. But for the 'majority' it is stressfull to do heroic raids or challenge modes or even normal mode? I wonder what is challenging in your real life if WoW is already too hard for you.


There you go, the "unskilled losers" ask for nerfs. That's a not very nice way of putting an etiquette over a group of players that may have difficulties overcoming a challenge in the game. There's no real reason why you should go out of your way to also say that then real life for those players must be incredibly difficult. We get it, you consider yourself a very skilled player in World of Warcraft, that's great.

But in a game with as many players as World of Warcraft has, you have to realize that people come from very different backgrounds, some have been playing games for years, some are just starting to discover this world... Therefore, they have different expectations of how they would like to enjoy the content.

Of course, it may look selfish to ask for nerfs if you can overcome the content at its current difficulty, but, isn't it equally selfish to deny others content just because they don't have your skill?


and there we go ladys and gentleman, now we see hard proof that even blizzard employees no longer cares about the soul of their game anymore. Remember the time when the developers dressed in hardrock t-shirts and did not care only about the money, but also about what kind of playerbase they had. When the game was not cattered to the x-box generation, that don't care about the journey only about the reward. Sad to see but to no supprise why wow nowadays is considered a joke in serious gaming circles,
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