The "they do not need" part might be easier to discuss. Some players just don't need PVP content at all (in fact they wouldn't mind if it was entirely removed from the game, the same aplies to PVE content from the perspective of some PVP players).
In my oppinion this is hardly a bold claim to make. Ask yourself, what do you "rent" for a monthly fee?
From your explanation I get the impression that by paying a monthly fee I'm entitled to "have" anything the game has to offer. I think this is false. I think it should be this:
"By paying a monthly fee I "rent" a chance to content based on time and effort spend on completing that content. On a spendature of equal time and effort a player has an equal chance on rewards gained from that content. Less time and effort means a lesser chance to gain rewards and lesser rewards."
Just like you don't need to participate in every part of the game, it should also be fine that you cannot achieve every part of the game simply because you don't spend the same time and effort in it.
You could debate whether "skill" should be thrown in the mix but to put it short: Skill can be increased with time and effort.
Edited by Bandicoot on 24/01/13 11:40 (GMT)
But this effect everyone saddly,
If the majority of people are becoming player's with no interest and no point to play the game it would affect the less one.
See raiding population?
If in my guild more and more people dont bother to raid ? This wouldn't affect me? From 35+ people in my guild and raiding as a 25-man we ended yesterday with 17 people .We didn't raid at all yesterday.
And even if were gonna raid ...would we enjoy raiding on a format that wouldn't enjoy?
From 17 people how many of them would stay benched? How this would affect theyre will to continue the game? Raiding as 10-man?
Week after week is becoming worse and worse.
Edited by Masztaar on 24/01/13 12:43 (GMT)
Not every guild has the will to keep hitting that wall, neither accepting as a fact that "here's how far you can go" is a very appealing reason to play.
And your current reasoning wich also seems to be the one of your company, is what has pushed me away from raiding entirely for the first time ever, and I've raided since Molten Core had placeholder graphics.
You have made me give up because my achievements (both personal and actual) felt so extremely mundane at the end of Cataclysm, and the way you defended and reasoned around it felt so perverse to me that I saw no other choice. There was no incentive anymore. At this point I've done LFR about twice in HoF and Terrace, and had enough after that. I'll just keep doing so until the last tier this expansion, gear up in LFR, and then wait for you to nerf normal/HC so hard that I can faceroll it with a PuG (Like DS HC in the end, wich gutted me after all the time me and my guild spent in there to finish it early). My guild will push on as usual, even though we have lost alot of players because of this.
I now seek my fun elsewhere and play PvP exclusively (wich hasn't always been a ton of fun either considering what the balance looked like at release, but that's another story). I know I'm sounding bitter but I'm really not, if "progress communism" is the new road where everyone who pays equal should automatically expect to get the best stuff, then hey. PvP it is.
EDIT:@Draztal: Nice to see that your attitude is better in here than it was in the Cata thread at least.
In my oppinion this is hardly a bold claim to make. Ask yourself, what do you "rent" for a monthly fee?
This is a classic example of a typical WoW player who cannot see the wood for the trees.
You are so hooked up and focussed on what YOU want to achieve to see the bigger picture.
The problem is that players are not forced to pay their "rent".
Players can choose not to rent Blizzards service.
Players pay X amount per month, have X amount of free time or X amount of determination/skill which in turn allows them to use X amount of content and derive X amount of pleasure from the game.
The word "rights" (or entitlements) is over used on these forums. The only "right" that a customer has is the right to cancel their subs. Players will cancel their subs if it reaches a point where they feel they are not getting enough content/fun for their money.
Your moralising about how much effort you feel they should put in to access X amount of content is irrelavant. They have their own opinion of that and it is their credit card and not yours that is being used. Unfortunately for you, the demographics of this game is such that their credit cards massively outnumber yours. Combined that with the fact that Blizzards number one objective is to make money and you see the problem.
From a business perspective Blizzard will do what ever is neccessary to ensure that enough players have access to X amount of content to encourage their resubscription. Of course it is more complicated than that. Every piece of content must justify its existence in terms of its impact on subscription retention versus its development cost.
Raid content in particular is in an extremely vulnerable position in that respect. It consumes a lot of development resourse (which could be spent elsewhere) and is therefore under great pressure for it to reach as wide an audience as possible. If it fails to reach a wide audience then its very existance and your entire hobby is at risk.
I think this is a fair analogy, but the problem is, as in my case, that there comes a point when the 'reward' you get in return for your 'rent' is too little given the amount of effort you are able to put it. It's a subjective measure, but when that time comes, you'll agonise over the decision for a long time and then eventually stop paying and playing.
It's pretty much where I am now, having cancelled by 6 month recurring sub a few weeks back. I'll miss WoW, but I don't expect the game to change for me. I do fear that this is becoming a more and more common sentiment.
Edited by Wifwaf on 24/01/13 14:32 (GMT)
I have to take issue with one distinction that constantly gets made in these threads, between 'skilled' and 'unskilled' or 'less skilled' players.
In reality, what seperates most players is the amount of time available to play. Levelling up to max, farming mats (or farming something to pay for mats), running dailies for valor points and rep, learning new encounters and gearing up in either 5man or LFR takes time.
Ive never known it be easier to see raid content since LFR came out, and the drops from LFR mean its a hell of a lot easier to get epics, to think people used to moan about welfare epics from BG's!
But for some of us, learning a raid encounter takes all our playtime for an evening, with no time at all for anything else, for example:
Last night I started in Moshugan Vaults normal (yes, im a late starter). I cant get online until about 7:30 due to family commitments. We wiped nearly two hours on Stoneguard, cleared it about 9:45 pm, and then moved onto Feng. We had two attempts and got him to about 60% and then had to finish because a few needed to stop playing at about 10:15pm.
So thats my total evenings playtime spent on one boss. I didnt get any drops and my repairs cost me over 100gold. I dont have a problem with this, but given my limited playtime and the fact that my guild doesnt raid more than 2-3 times a week at best, I cant see me clearing and gearing up very soon.
This isnt a moan, its more about pointing out that my limited playtime doesnt make me a BAD player or a NOOB, and im not in the business of criticising other people who spend hours online every day.
If there is a new tier of raiding on the way and a lot of limited time players havent been able to clear current content, is there any crime in lowering the difficulty level of the outgoing tier in order to maximise the number of players who get to see the game that they are paying to play? ( and no, I dont regard LFR as equivalent to Normal, its the same wallpaper, different room)
Of course, if new 5-man or LFR content offer another means of increasing ilevel and making older content 'nerfed' by comparison, it may not be necessary to 'nerf' the encounters directly.
TL:DR.. there are a lot of skilled 'casual' players out there who cant raid on the bleeding edge due to time constraints, not skill shortage.
Normal modes and LFR don't exist so nothing has to be tweaked ever again.
LFR is tailored towards players that can't participate in organized raiding, and therefore, it's tuned accordingly (25 complete strangers, with little to no team play in most cases, and wildly different skill levels and gear). Of course, if you regularly play in organized raiding, LFR does not present a challenge. at. all. If you consistently raid Heroic bosses, then probably LFR looks just hilariously easy to you. Because you're not the target player.
Normal modes are for players that participate in organized raiding, and Heroic for those guilds that want to put their skill to test, but, this doesn't mean that even on its own scale, a particular boss might need tweaking in the opinion of the developers, or simply, they just feel it's time to tone something down so players that have been stuck on him for some time can progress.
It's not just time. Interest and investment into the game is also important. Take a theorycrafter for example. That kind of player will devote a big amount of time trying to understand how the mechanics of a class work so they can get the maximum DPS/Survivability/Healing out of his character. In turn, this becomes a guide that helps players with less time to dedicate to better play with their characters.
So, it's not about just dismissing those with more time either. If I had to guess, I'd say that what separates players is how important to them is what they do in the game.
Actually you're quire wrong there. I'm a casual player and I hardly hit a LFR raid more than once in a blue moon. Heck, perhaps once a month. I am in the target group that Blizzard nerfs content for. I don't think my "credit card" earns me any rights and I don't hide behind the masses to vent my opinion either. My opinion is my own and "may" be shared by others.
The thing that bugs me is that people think that their 12,99 a month entitles them to guaranteed rewards. All I'm saying and have said is that 12,99 doesn't guarantee you anything. It only provides you a chance on the content.
To put it in an extreme contest what you're saying comes to me as:
"I pay 12,99 so I want the high score and all rewards after tapping 2 buttons and in one week! Cuz I payz!"
Tell me, why would I deserve exactly the same rewards for gaming with my 2 hours play-time a week as someone who plays 4 hours on the same content every day? If time equals money then the player playing 4 hours paid a hell of a lot more than me for the game.
I have exactly the same experience and feelings.
P.S.: You have valid arguments on the topic, coupled with patience and humor that makes it feel more like you share your personal thoughts and experiences as well, instead of posting indifferent single copy paste lines avoiding any meaningful argument ("We are looking into it.", "Your feedback is important." Etc.) pre-written by an officer years ago somewhere in a HQ. And you post frequently, turning it into a real conversation instead of posting a "ping comment" and never posting again. I'm not a raider but I've found this conversation really interesting and fun to read. I wish I could see more of this type of communication in other forum sections as well. Keep up the good work m8.
If a guild has full (100%) gear from NHC and can't beat every boss in HC, then so be it.
How can you on the one hand say this, and on the other hand say that it's find that there is no alternate way for people to get (for instance) lesser charms because some things just take effort and that's fine?
Heroics take effort and time. That's fine. Hands off them. And yes, this is coming from someone who hasn't done most of the bosses on heroic. It's how it should be. The game needs a challenging part or it's all just going to be one big loot fest where the only thing distinguishing players is luck in gear drops...
1 Worgen Hunter
Perhaps someone said that, but if you keep up with the patch notes all that is going to change... So it is somewhat a moot point. Charms may well come from loot bags, rep will come from dungeons again, you will have options for how you progress that all "tax" your time. They are very interested in keeping players, especially if the means to do so doesn't break the game.
As for difficulty, I think they are dead on, lfr and valor, and coins (especially after the patch) with reduced valor costs for 5.0 and 5.1 valor gear. The gear is the nerf.
As to the failing on Elegon, you know back when I was first doing elegon I had no idea the pillars had to fall at the same time....if I had known my group would've cleared it much sooner...
Edited by Lirazel on 24/01/13 18:22 (GMT)
Also, it's an important aspect of a multiplayer game when there are players and guilds that other players and guilds can look up to because they know that they'll never be as good, but still LIKE what they see and cheer for them and follow their progress.
Same thing in other multiplayer games. Skilled players can become a bit famous. In the right country and setting (think South Korean Starcraft) even quite famous. And why shouldn't they? They can do something that 99% others can't do. And that's reason enough. That's what a competitive "sport" is about. And why shouldn't WoW offer such a thing for those who want to pursue it?
If I just want to relax and do something casually I do something else (within WoW or not). If I want a challenge I try progression raiding. But the challenge would eventually be gone if content would be nerfed too much, and if most guilds could beat everything with relative ease.
It should be a tough nut to crack, and should remain so. Being able to defeat the hardest PvE opponents should remain a fairly exclusive task, otherwise there would be no prestige in doing so.
PvP is, due to its nature, always competitive, so if you want to reach the highest ratings there you need to be better than almost everyone else which is tough. (not counting wintrading/abuse and so on)
But the great thing about WoW is that it also offers really challenging PvE content. And this content should be tuned in a similar fashion - if you want to defeat the most difficult content, it should be an exclusivity, not the norm. It can become the norm once players outgear or outlevel the content, sure, but not during progress time.
Edited by Nessaya on 24/01/13 18:58 (GMT)
But i cant pug, as i probably would have to leave the raid after the first hour.
LFR allows me to quit and to join whenever i like to.
If there wasnt lfr, i wont be able to see the endcontent.
You think you are but I'd put it to you that the majority of people that would describe themselves as "casual" don't share your views. That was the point I was making - it doesn't matter who you are or whether you are a casual or hardcore, you do not control the credit cards of the others and they statistically tend not to share the view you are expressing.
They don't think their credit card earns them rights either. They don't hide behind "the masses" either. They act as individuals based on their personal preferences. However as we saw in Cataclysm, millions of players can independently come to the same conclusion and act in a similar manner...
No, you are imagining this based on the posts of a few forum users. The vast majority who don't post on the forums do not think like this. All they care about is whether they personally are enjoying themselves. If they aren't they cancel their subs.
Again you are projecting this fantasy onto millions of players. They don't think of it in those terms. At the end of the month they ask "Did I enjoy playing WoW this month? Did I get much use out of it? Is it worth paying for another month?".
Time does equal money. But Blizzard doesn't get the money when you waste large amounts of time in the game. They get the same 12,99 whether you play for one hour a week or twenty.
There are other factors - the guy spending more time in the game might be more likely to buy a realm transfer to join another raiding guild. But then the guy spending less time in the game might have a high disposable income and be more likely to buy mounts and pets. Either way I don't think we can link the amount of time a player spends in game with an increase or decrease in profitability as a customer.
Edited by Liliith on 24/01/13 22:56 (GMT)
And here is the myth that casual raiding people look up to someone and aspire to be at some point as guilds that are better then then - they dont - they neither care nor look up to - they are interested in their own progress - they dont check wowprogress contantly to measure their epen cause they dont care - most of players are interested mainly in their personal progress and having fun in raids with friends- they dont check up other players armories contantly to check HC raiding gear they dont check other people progress cause they dont care - there is a small group of people who play only to measure themselves agains other but most of wow community wont care about them no matter how loud they would scream in trade "check out how big epen i have now look up to me and maybe someday ull reach my point"
U dont belive me ? try it yourself - ask few random people in main city if they know what was the guild order of world first sha of anger kills lets say 1-3 - most people wont have any idea cause they couldnt care less and now u think that such average joe would care to admire some guilds who are higher then his but lets say 4-5k in world rankings ?
80 Human Rogue
I am blocked at Elegeon normal 10man.Yes, its fair. Many guilds were blocked on Elegon and many skilled (i.e. heroic) raiders said that the Elegon counter was overtuned and that Blizzard were misjudging how difficult it was for the average guild.
They nerfed the damage caused by both the cosmic sparks and celestial protectors several weeks ago. Hopefully now you will be able to kill him.
Do you personally consider that true progress? It baffles me. What sense of pride or accomplishment does it inspire when someone else (Blizzard) makes the fight increasingly trivial for you?
How would I be able to tell the guys from Paragon (or any other top guilds) that I have accomplished the same thing they did, albeit a bit further down the line, when Blizzard has made that accomplishment 30% easier?
The hand holding provokes me to no end. Can't defeat the a boss somewhere on HC? Well sh*t. Keep gearing until you can, and if you can't then the fight isn't for you. By your logic, all my opponents in PvP should be nerfed by 30% by the end of each season, because I paid for the game and I want to have a free Gladiator title if LFR players are getting a free "Savior of Azeroth" equivalent of a title.
It's the exact same thing.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
Edited by Azryel on 25/01/13 03:45 (GMT)
Seems I’ve got blues attention and I am going to answer to the questions. And in fact am going to try to be as clear as I can, given english is not my native.
But... they do not deserve? That's a really tall claim. By what order? What gaming principle does make a player worthy of completing something?
Ok, let me put it this way... No let me ask question back to you:
Do you find fair that if I invest more time to improve in this game – that I do not deserve rewarded better than the player, who logs in does 10 quests and LFR ? Do you find it is reasonable and fair that player, who is not motivated enough to do certain aspects of game DESERVES ALL and 100% same that other player, who is willing to invest more time and knowledge to the game ?
It is like saying that : I do not like PvP, but I should be given T2 gear just because I like how the items look. That’s how your response to me sounded. Wait, you are going to make T2 weapons baseline. Fine maybe you want to make PvP more skill-based by evening the gear. But by doing this you also have removed the feeling of achievement - feeling a bit better than the other guy. Note I am using word 'feeling', not fact. And 'feelings' are important. Every man out there want's to feel special somehow. It is hard in a MMO and this is why maybe people are worried, when you make everything easier to access.
Fine, every player deserves SAME rewards regardless of time and skill involved. Then do tell me what should motivate me then, when there wouldn’t be anything distinctive between players and their mindsets.
I am self mainly motivated by new boss kills and I do not mind really what other raiders kill or do. I have my own speed, pace and so on. I do not mind if 10 other DK's wear gear as I do, when they do content I do. Makes sense, yes ? However I roll eyes, when see that AFK guy in LFR run around with almost identical gear as I do. Without transmog feature you barely would make difference between me and the AFK-Hero, who does most cases 25k dps if not less.
You see what I mean here ? I am not sore if whole Outland realm clears Sha of Fear and looks like Azryel clones. But I do mind if guy does nearly nothing and looks "cool" as 'me'.
I still think player, who sees LFR as their endgame, random BG as their end-game does not deserve same rewards as player who does HC raids or 2.2k arena.
Is my way of thinking so „tall“ and „bold“ after all ? or I am only human ? I just want to be rewarded on what I do and can you blame me for not wanting people who afk in Orgrimmar get nearly same items with minimal effort/skill ?
I am not hypocrite. I do not claim, like some people here in this topic, to speak for some mystical other. I do not represent any majority or minority, raiders or slackers – I am just honest and standing for myself. So there’s no hidden agenda on my posts other than my own ego. So do not hold it against me. I am a vanity creature after-all.
This 'leave no player behind' - is all nice, but there should be slightly bigger caps between the one slacking, and the one dedicating. And if you give people easier routes to achieve something, trust me - they are going to take easier routes. And if easy routes do not work, they write forum post and demand free loot, more loot or better loot.
But this hyperbole, as much as it gets thrown around when these topics come out, is just not true. Noone is rewarded just for logging in. The only thing a nerf does is set a lower bar, you still have to overcome a certain level of challenge and perhaps diminish the sense of achievement of players that defeated a boss on its harder incarnation. But that's quite far away from "being rewarded just for existing as an entity".
Yet you completely misunderstand my point. And admitted my English might be the culprit. Fine, I try again.
What is the goal of you (as Blizzard), then making LFR, Normals and Heroics, when you end up lowering bars for example in Heroic raids. I mean I do understand needs to nerf normals that every guild can access those. I understand to tweak HC content for the balance. But do you understand me, when I say - I do want to kill THE same boss as OTHER guilds. Fine, I need more gear to help it, but I want to kill SAME boss. Not some poor weakened creature, who flaps eyelashes and rolls over.
What kind of hero of Azeroth I am, when I face no resistance. Last time my raider wore a title was Light of Dawn - because I was proud to be able to move from defile (even with that 15% or what nerf that was). I never wore Saviour of Azeroth or Firelord because I got there too late for my taste. YOU guys had already killed bosses for me. If that made sense. This character wears Delver of the Vaults because - it sounds cool, not because I am too proud though. MSV can be massively over geared, but least it is not nerfed to oblivion yet. And this what I think it should work : if HC fight is too hard, you go and gear till its simple enough.
As for the "entity"-word I used . Is 'this' all quite far from rewarding logging in ? You seen how easy is to advance in this game lately ? You teach people to be lazy – that, when you complain enough on forums you get easier rewards.. Noticed that ? There are things that are quality of life changes - like rep's on alts. Valor bonuses on account. Those are good changes.
But are you guys for real making new LFR 502 ? Giving bonus rewards for not winning loot in LFR - heck you know how I got my stage 1 legendary quest done ? from 20 sigils I got 15 from LFR. No, I am not joking. I want bonus rewards for not winning loot in HC raids too now. How about I get a mini gnome running across dungeon and give me a hug every time I use coin and doesn't win loot! YOU HEAR ME I DEMAND LOOT OR I QUIT!
(now that last doesn't sound fun, nor fine line - but that's what the posts on forums here say and then next you can read on blue tracker is that they want to give bonus for people who dont get loot on LFR... makes me sad - when this game became SO loot focused and so little content focused ?)
Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you).
And when you balance games rewarding system only thinking about the ’easier and lazier crowd’ – it would make game probably more popular, but not necessarily more fun.
Not every guild has the will to keep hitting that wall, neither accepting as a fact that "here's how far you can go" is a very appealing reason to play.
How many guilds you know ? Or is this based only on dry numbers. Even Blizzard doesn’t nor cannot measure the actual human emotion and factor.
"Hey, we've got to this boss, and we can't progress any further. It's all good!" In most cases, those players will just stop playing to have their fun somewhere else.
Maybe raiding wasn’t for those people at 1st place ? Is this too cruel question for me to ask ? People who get stuck on normals may think so, fine you lower the bar. But heroic raiding, I thought, was made to the people, who are a bit more competitive.
Do not be too upset on me. You are talking to the player, who did not quit after 5 weeks of Kael'thas wipes on bench, nor 6 weeks of mu'rus wipes. And I lived trough 15-20 minute Nefarian respawn timer on vanilla, as well the complete hilarious wipe fest of Firefighter, Shadowtraps on Lich King and I sm sure am not scared of tsulong or Sha of Fear (which I believe might be block my team for a while). I am not a top raider even. I am just one of those 'raiding masses' - average Joe's of HC raiding, if you will.
Said the last paragraph just to show where I come from so you'd understand my view point. That's all :)
PS! I still think people should be rewarded for their deeds and actions not for the monthly fee. *runs off before blue smacks her with something*