Every Man For Himself - unfair?

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90 Human Death Knight
13280
if your class can be human, always go human
90 Night Elf Druid
17760
28/01/2013 21:39Posted by Hakkuri
Imo they should remove all combat affecting racials and only leave the non-combat ones (rep bonus, proff bonus etc. There would still be little difference between but even the top players could pick the race they want.


Or give EMFH to everyone, and dump humans with some new racial to make up for it.

Or as you say just remove all the combat racials... though I would still prefer they give everyone EMFH and just remove the others to even the field.

Or ideally, just disable all the racial skills in PvP like GW2 does, so I wouldn't be forced to lose my shadowmeld for PvE due to PvP issues... beats more homogenisation.
Edited by Shir on 29/01/2013 09:37 GMT
90 Human Warrior
0
Why every idiot can make topic on this forum.......
Community
Racials have an intrinsic inequality; it’s very hard to get away from that if we want to make them all very distinctive at the same time. I wouldn’t dare to insult your intelligence by defending that racials are all perfectly balanced. Clearly they are not, but we also need to realize that there are two sides to this game, and for PvE for example, EMFH suddenly just doesn’t seem so op anymore, except on very specific encounters where a “PvP trinket” effect would give you more uptime.

It has been stated before that devs aren’t too happy about racials and our most distinguishable anthropomorphic crabbie even went so far as to say that if he were to design WoW from scratch, there would be no racials. The thing is, racials have been a part of the game for so long that everyone likes them and is used to the differentiation they provide, racials were designed with the intent of being some of the most distinctive abilities in the game, shaping distinct traits and providing identity to each of the different races.

That is not to say that there’s nothing we can do about it, far from that, devs are already aware of this issue so you already have their attention, perfecting balance is part of the persistent balancing and tuning of WoW. Keep providing us with feedback and suggestions for different racial implementations that you feel are balanced and highly distinctive both for PvE and PvP at the same time, and I’m sure devs will appreciate it, good ideas are always welcome here at Blizzard and many good ideas that make it into our games can actually be traced back to our community.
90 Draenei Monk
11730
well for a most part humans is what u can call the most "boring" race taking it's what we are... they spiced up human with that racial to make people play it i suppose.
90 Orc Death Knight
16950
29/01/2013 10:29Posted by Zerodill
well for a most part humans is what u can call the most "boring" race taking it's what we are... they spiced up human with that racial to make people play it i suppose.


I would strongly disagree with that one. Sure, a lot of people might think that humans are the most boring, but for the very same reason, a lot of people think the humans are the most fun. It might not be the most popular race, but it's certainly one of the most popular, and it's not just because of some random racial.
90 Human Death Knight
9285
First of all, if you want to justify your arguement with statistics, then you'd better get a representative sample. 20 players is nowhere close to being representative. However, in order for you to still have a point in what you're saying, I suggest: http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stats-race-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html

Statistically, the %2200+ shows way more humans then any other race, with 32.5% of %2200+ players being human. So far, this supports your point of human racial being better then any other racial. Furthermore, human 2200+ population is 32.5% as opposed to humans accounting for only 19% of the global population. This results in a [%2200+] / [%global] = 1.7 for humans, which shows a clear race advantage. However, since you did get here, undead with 16.3%/9.2% = 1.77 (for the same ratio - between 2200+ representation in relation with global representation), which is actually higher then humans. Going further, orcs have 13.4%/6.3%=2.12, so even better ratio then humans and undead, and in fact, the highest of all races.

So while you do have a fair point of human racial being significantly better then many other races racials, you definitely don't have a (statistical) point to it being the best in game, as proven above. Statistically, orc racial IS in fact the best in game, followed by undead and humans being tight for second place. Furthermore, if you check the alliance 2200+ and global populations, you will see that ALL other alliance races are statistically bad with no exception, as well as all other horde races (except orc and undead) being sub-par, maybe with the notable exceptions of taurens being rather close to a [%2200+] / [%global] ratio closer to 1 (while still being sub-par with just 0.84%).

Also, take note of another interesting ratio: human females account for much more of the 2200+ population then human males, as well as undead males account for far more then undead females. Shell we conclude human females are overpowered, or undead males perhaps? The answer is no, because picking a gender has a flavour and cosmetic reason for players. Now, when picking race there are 2 components of that choice: 1 is the actual benefit reason (the racial), while the other one is the cosmetic reason.

In conclusion: if you want to make a relevant point based on statistics, the correct question is: "Are human, undead and orc (especially orc) racials unfair in relation to the rest of the racials?". Should you ask that, then the answer is "yes, they are". However, this is not what you asked, so the answer is simply "no".
90 Human Death Knight
9490
It's not 5.xxx k more primary stats, it's 3.xxx (the ingame tooltip is false!)

Also in the case of Orcs:
You forget the 15% stun duration reduction, which is very good against Warriors, Mages (the now FotM) and will be very good against Rogues and Monks (the next patch FotM)

In the case of Undead:
I heard the extra damage from the new undead racial is good (Nadagast likes it at least) And it heals.
And a second "insignia"...

The OP says xx% of the top players are humans
In fact all the top players I watch streaming are Undead/Orc.
Reckful, Nadagast clearly stated that Horde is superior for PvP (it's a personal opinion, but one of experts)

Let's see more details!

  • The 4% more pvp-power do not translate into 4% more damage. In my case e.g. my damage is going from 148% to 152% = 2,7% gain.
    For healers is even less.
  • What is the worth of the procc from the trinket? You are aware that some classes have so much cc, that they can neutralize it for a big part? Who says that the procc will come when it's needed?
  • So anyway: I wouldn't mind to change the human racial with the useful ones of the Orcs or Undead
    Take EMFH from Humans and give us:
    a. UD racials Touch of the Grave and Will of the Forsaken OR
    b. Orcs Blood Fury, Hardiness and Command
    No, not only one of the racials, cause you have to see the whole package.

    Deal?

    And no, I don't wanna play some freaky Horde race! I play Terran in SC2 and I play Human in WoW. It's simply a matter of taste!

    It is quite a simple case of maths to work out the best racials.

    Human: Gets to use two trinkets: lets say they use insignia and badge.

    Thats with full upgrades:

    Human: 1466 pvpp, 346 resi from each trinket slot)=
    total of:
    +2892 pvp power passively.
    +692 resilience passively.
    +1 min cool down for 5499 strength/int/agility for 20seconds
    +proc chance for 3881 strength/int/agility for 20 seconds.
    +ability to trinket stuns/etc with racial.

    Other races using badge and trinket get From each slot=(1466 pvpp, 346 resi from 1 trinket slot)+(346 pvpp, 346 resi, 1100 crit/mastery/etc from 2nd slot)

    Total of:
    +1812 pvp power passively.
    +692 resilience passively.
    +1100 crit/mastery/etc
    +1 min cool down for 5499 strength/int/agility for 20 seconds.
    +ability to trinket stuns/etc
    +various racials.

    ----------
    So to break it down a human vs any race gets:
    +1080 pvp power
    -1100 crit/masterty/etc
    proc chance for 5499 strength/int/agility for 20 seconds.

    So at the end of the day you need to ask are the other races racials as good as (+1080 pvp power, proc chance for 5.5k of primary stat and -1.1k crit/mastery/etc.

    Vs humans orcs get a 4k attack power cool down at 2 mins and +1.1k crit/mastery which is clearly inferior to the human racial of +1080 pvp power, proc chance for 5.5k of primary stat.

    No one can argue that the human racials are by far the best racials for offensive play and pure outright damage increases.

    You may argue the justification that other racials provide a better defensive boost such as Taurens larger health pool or the orcs resistance to stun.

    But I don't think you'll find many people willing to reforge away 5k in their primary stat and 1k pvp power for any trade off what so ever.
    Edited by Neiel on 29/01/2013 12:25 GMT
    90 Human Warrior
    13450
    First of all, I realise the racial itself is not, in fact, unfair. However, by not having to use the PvP Medallion, you're allowed to use two DPS PvP trinkets. This is all good and fine, of course, if it wasn't for the fact that these trinkets give a large amount of PvP Power.

    Why is it like this? Humans already have a strong racial in that they get an extra DPS trinket (for example, they get to use the stat-proc trinket, whereas others get a flat +crit, +spirit or +mastery), why do they need to get an additional buff in the form of extra PvP Power?

    Make the +PvP Power on DPS trinkets unique!

    There's already places where this exists. Two-handed weapons (Malevolent Gladiator's Greatsword) have this in order to prevent Fury Warriors from getting too much. It's essentially the same deal, but for a race rather than a spec.

    Am I wrong in thinking that Humans getting over 1,000 PvP Power more than any other race is unfair? Is it balanced in some way I'm not aware of? Please do tell.


    Pfff...spell's name says it all: every MAN for himself....not every orc, gnome, drenei etc
    90 Undead Rogue
    9020
    PvP power increase is not really the issue, its proc of second trinket that makes human racial retardly OP for some classes like warriors/mages/death knights.

    Difference in human and non human warrior/mage burst is so big its not even funny. Thats the real problem here.
    90 Undead Mage
    0
    I don't mind the racial, but i don't like how i only have to fight humans, as Alliance players rarely roll another race. It would be much more fun if we see more gnomes, dwarfs in bgs/arena, right now everytime i fight an alliance team 1 out of 2 times i go up against humans(female in particular, i dont know maybe deep down those players want to be female i suppose)
    77 Night Elf Monk
    0
    But humans are so ugly, worst animations and textures. There has to be something to compensate this!
    90 Night Elf Monk
    11900
    The Horde's racials has been better than alliance's racials since day 1 in Vanilla.

    I mean 5% extra HP for the tauren + war stomp?

    That is OP.
    90 Undead Rogue
    4430
    This question is for Blizzard will you ewer nerf human trinket will you set trinket to remove som effect stun or fear som of those you choose but not to all effect because 2 dps trinkets will be better than any racial abilities because when you have free trinket you can choose your racial what ewer you wanna...Thx And hey humans don't be mad we all know is op that is why everyone in arenas choose human...Shush !!! AND AND:::
    It is not Op i must use trinket because forsaken dose not remove all effects from me and then i loose my dps unlike humans my Forsaken share cd with trinket and when you use Forsaken watch it may be your last thing what you will you do you cant use trinket so it is like you use trinket but it is only for fear charm or sleep...And plies don't say it is op i hope they will give you same that you'll have to use that trinket space for Alliance trinket ...
    90 Troll Druid
    9760
    I think a GREAT fix for this, would be simply lowering the PvP power on dps trinkets from 1300 smthing down to 300 smthing, what it is on other pvp trinkets, such as medallion and the hp gainer.

    This would reduce supermassive burst going around a little, slight tunedown is cool.
    EMFH gets balanced, no bonus pvp power, but still 2 effects.
    You might want to add some slight bonus as a secondary stat on the dps trinkets, tho. Just as what medallion and hp-gainer have.

    toughts?
    90 Undead Rogue
    4430
    Nice idea!
    90 Blood Elf Priest
    8400
    The Horde's racials has been better than alliance's racials since day 1 in Vanilla.

    I mean 5% extra HP for the tauren + war stomp?

    That is OP.


    While I agree that the hordes racials atm are generally better overall than the alliances atm. I must say that this does not matter and is not a relevant point in this discussion.

    Ignore the faction differences for now, were are saying that the human racial allows for far too much of a pvp boost than others. Remember the maths essentially humans can bust with 10k extra in their primary stat and +1k pvp power if timed right. This is a huge huge boost to burst damage and sustained damage for humans vs all other races horde or alliance.

    Its not a questing of lol horde v alliance. Please take your minds away from that avenue of discussion Humans are far far superior for pvp sustained damage and burst damage than dranei, blood elf. goblin, tauren, worgen, gnome, etc etc basically almost every race you can list. Its not a faction based issue it an over all racial issue.

    Essentialy i can go over the maths to explain it to you but in short the human racial provides a potential extra 5k strength/int/agi and 1k pvp power for a small loss of 1k mastery/crit to any class vs another race of the same class.

    Only orcs are close to humans in terms of racials;

    Orcs vs humans.
    Ors get :
    4514 attack power on 2 mins cool down.
    +1k crit/haste/mastery
    Stun resistance
    Humans get:
    +5k in primary stat proc which can stack
    +1k pvp power.

    Offensively clearly humans are superior to orcs. As humans essentially can burst with +10k in their primary stat with a bit of timing on a 1 min cool down and with +1k pvp power, vs the orcs best burst of 5k primary stat, 4.5k attack power on a 2 min cool down and +1k crit/mastery/etc

    Clearly humans have the best offensive racials for burst and sustained damage.
    Clearly Orcs have better defensive cool downs than humans.

    -----------------------------------
    Because some people are obviously ignoring or not reading the main points of this thread, instead qqing about not being overpowering or attacking other people to sumarise because I assume some wont bother to read anything too long or anything with numbers in it.

    Most of the other alliance racials suck I agree and that is an issue to balance but the human racial is so far superior to almost every other racial. Only orcs racials are close to being as powerful as the humans.

    This is an over all balance issue and like the blue said should be solved by looking at all races not just comparing humans and orcs and qqing. Suggestions and ways to improve all racials or nerf the stronger ones to be in line with the others are whats needed.
    90 Blood Elf Priest
    8400
    I think a GREAT fix for this, would be simply lowering the PvP power on dps trinkets from 1300 smthing down to 300 smthing, what it is on other pvp trinkets, such as medallion and the hp gainer.

    This would reduce supermassive burst going around a little, slight tunedown is cool.
    EMFH gets balanced, no bonus pvp power, but still 2 effects.
    You might want to add some slight bonus as a secondary stat on the dps trinkets, tho. Just as what medallion and hp-gainer have.

    toughts?


    My personal fav solution to the issue is to make it so the proc trinket and the burst trinkets stat boost cant stack on top of each other. It'd mean people using two wont be bursting with 11k extra in their primary stat instead they will be bursting with 5k in their primary stat on a 1 min cool down with the potential to get a proc to get 5k in their primary stat when their on demand trinket is on cool down.
    Edited by Velis on 29/01/2013 12:30 GMT
    29/01/2013 10:38Posted by Sporck
    It might not be the most popular race, but it's certainly one of the most popular


    I stand apon this speech to make a platform, the train I arrived in has not yet come so I took a bus and walked.
    90 Troll Druid
    9760
    <snip own quote>


    My personal fav solution to the issue is to make it so the proc trinket and the burst trinkets stat boost cant stack on top of each other. It'd mean people using two wont be bursting with 11k extra in their primary stat instead they will be bursting with 5k in their primary stat on a 1 min cool down with the potential to get a proc to get 5k in their primary stat when their on demand trinket is on cool down.


    That, may be wise indeed. Especially, some classes are actually going without pvp trinket and going with 2 nukers next season, since their class has a trinket ability of sorts... (monks) and actually I do that too on my orc DK, Desecrated Ground ^_^ (altho it says immune to los of control and clears all, just as pvp trinket says, it doesn't help against silences and disarms and roots D:)

    Could also imagine reducing the buff from on-demand trinket to aprox 4k, and increasing proc one to match that. I mean making them both give same amount of pawah, wich would be the exact middle of them 2, what they are now. Hope you get me, I suck at explaining :D
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