Raid finder wiping buff!

90 Pandaren Mage
0
Great news from the newest patch 5.2 notes:

To encourage Raid Finder groups to persevere, each time an Raid Finder group wipes on a boss fight all players in the group receives a stacking buff that increases health, damage dealt, and healing done by 5% (up to a maximum of 10 stacks). This buff is cleared once the boss has been killed.


This will make it possible to:

1. make LFR HARDER, yes, not a complete faceroll before you wipe a few times.

This means, that mechanics may actually be needed for the first few pulls, people will actually learn. If they can't progress, it will slowly be a faceroll like LFR today.

Great change, hope players are going to feel the "raiding experience" in raid finder, but way easiere content, ofcourse.

I diffently support this, also I would love to get the 480 requirement raised to 486 again, making players feel abit more like "raiding". Also that they have got a journey before entering a raid, and not just a few days after getting 90.

Great changes, keep it up !

/discuss.
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3 Human Mage
0
Great news? No it merely demonstrates that Blizz don't understand the problem and why we end up with unsatisfying trivialised encounters.

If you want to make raid finder harder you need to improve the filtering (instead of the useless ilevel limit) so that less bad players get in. Improve the average quality of players and you can buff encounters. You only need to weed out a small number of bad eggs to make a huge difference.

As I have said many time this can be done by using the armoury audit or the more advanced systems used by third party amateur websites.

If this new system were to be used to make RF harder I would simply join, remove my clothes for the first few wipes to save repair bills and then put them on.

I wonder if groups would start doing this as a matter of procedure? Depends what they do with these "minimum attempt requirements". But what can they do if half of all groups keep turning up naked? Groups won't be able to trip the "minimum" requirement and will get blocked and start breaking down.

Besides if a group was so bad that it took a few wipes before they could down the boss I would still instant-quit the group because I'd rather re-queue and get a good group than have to wipe a few times on each boss with a bunch of bads.

Dying because of bads when I myself did nothing wrong is not fun game play. It isn't the same as wiping all night in a progression raid guild where you are all pushing the limits. Rather it is time and gold wasted completely unnecessarily. This is why people get frustrated and drop group. Hell they could make me eat a 3 hour debuff and I'd still drop group if they wipe more than once.
Edited by Stinkyedita on 30/01/2013 22:25 GMT
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90 Undead Death Knight
13360
Players will abuse this.
Imagine hunter pull boss and then use feign death, its a wipe in few secs.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7710
Players will abuse this.
Imagine hunter pull boss and then use feign death, its a wipe in few secs.


So?
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90 Human Mage
6475
Players will abuse this.
Imagine hunter pull boss and then use feign death, its a wipe in few secs.


Bashiok:
"There is a minimum attempt requirement before the system 'credits' you with a wipe. It should always be more time-efficient to not wipe at all, but if it isn't we can tweak the threshold."

So I don't think it will be possible to abuse but we'll see.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15885
As if lfr wasn't dumbed down enough already.

They may as well just spawn a loot chest on zoning in.
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55 Gnome Death Knight
11165
Why don't they just mail me epics?
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90 Pandaren Hunter
17005
This just makes me sad. So when we get the proving grounds ( If we ever get them, this change looks like it will never happen) will that offer a buff when you fail to kite the adds to the huge hole?

I know blizzard want to help people by discouraging leavers but people that are not the window lickers of the game, the ones that know fire is bad etc will still leave if they seethe group wipe more than once and even more so if they are doing it to stack the buff. So with this change, you will get to a point where people keep leaving, you keep wiping ( elegon for instance) then boom, you go and 6-7 man it cause on top of the 50% damage buff, you are doing doing 25% more again......
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90 Night Elf Druid
13290

As I have said many time this can be done by using the armoury audit or the more advanced systems used by third party amateur websites.


How would you rate a player doing this? Having his/her gear enchanted and gemmed? That means about as much as itemlevel, aka minimal, about how much that player will contribute. I've seen full LFR geared/enchanted players do under 30k dps, quite often. The only thing that would change is that players would be forced to enchant gear they're about to replace anyway.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
10200
Good, anything that makes LFR easier and faster is a welcome change.
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As Bashiok mentioned, there's a minimum attempt requirement before the buff kicks in. The most time-efficient option should be to not wipe at all, and if that's not the case, the threshold can be tweaked.

As if lfr wasn't dumbed down enough already.

They may as well just spawn a loot chest on zoning in.

The developers don't think LFR is too difficult, but since the difference in performance between groups can vary noticeably, they had to trivialize some encounters and mechanics. With this system in place, some bosses don't have to be quite so binary (trivial vs. impossible). Mechanics can be more meaningful, while encouraging players to stay together rather than leave as soon as there is a wipe.
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90 Pandaren Mage
0
Yay! My 2nd blue tagged thread! :-D

Also this really sounds great, that mechanics can be more meaningfull in LFR.

Great!

The developers don't think LFR is too difficult, but since the difference in performance between groups can vary noticeably, they had to trivialize some encounters and mechanics. With this system in place, some bosses don't have to be quite so binary (trivial vs. impossible). Mechanics can be more meaningful, while encouraging players to stay together rather than leave as soon as there is a wipe.
:-D
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I think this is a really good idea. I think LFR's are boring as hell because you dont have to pay attention to mechanics. Right now, people dont care about mechanics, because "Someone else will do it, so i dont have to". With this system, people are forced to care, and i believe this will enhance their efforts. Or get them kicked out of every single LFR they enter, until they start caring.
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90 Tauren Shaman
13335
... Seriously?

I went to Panda LFR for the FIRST TIME ever like a month ago. I didn't know any of the bosses, I didn't see any of the vids and we cleared it on the first try without anyone in the raid even dying.

How can ANYONE fail with the current difficulty? How is it even REMOTELY POSSIBLE!?
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90 Human Warlock
5195
This is actually a really good idea.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12925
31/01/2013 08:42Posted by Draztal
As Bashiok mentioned, there's a minimum attempt requirement before the buff kicks in. The most time-efficient option should be to not wipe at all, and if that's not the case, the threshold can be tweaked.


Doesn't people usually leave after the first wipe though? Or aren't there more leavers after the first wipe compared to the n'th try, which was close to a kill but didn't happen. I haven't seen much wipes on LFR lately, but from what I can remember on beta and first few weeks of MoP, first tries looked always more hopeless than the improved consecutive tries and therefore seem like a more common point of deciding to throw in the towel.

I kinda can't keep wondering about statistical data on how people behave...
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90 Human Mage
19605
I personally feel like this buff mechanic is missing the point. Out of my experience, most LFR wipes come from an utter lack of motivation among players that could do better if they tried or wanted.

So, why not introduce some more motivational reward than a damage buff for wiping? Something like, "be among the 10 best DPS on an encounter and win a free bonus roll" or "be among the best 2 HPS on one fight and gain 50% more valor on dungeon completion" (obviously it wouldn't be that easy to determine a proper condition for tanks, but I guess Blizzard can think of something; you have our moneyz).

Add some real reward for outdoing others by performing your role better than them. I'd love to see what that would do.
Edited by Mamizou on 31/01/2013 09:48 GMT
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90 Night Elf Druid
6435
31/01/2013 09:08Posted by Haerdalish
How can ANYONE fail with the current difficulty? How is it even REMOTELY POSSIBLE!?


Agreed. I've tanked 6/6 MV normal and having returned to MV LFR (mainly healing it on my alt) there are no mechanics needed.


  • Tank all the Stone Guard bosses together... explosions? what explosions?
  • Feng is using epicentre! Quick click the Nullification Barrier! Oh wait you don't need to.
  • There's a spirit realm on Gara'jal? Maybe if I'm low on mana I'll pop there to top up - no point worrying about the adds or healing anyone in that zone.


And yet you insist on making it easier? The critical basic requirements of normal mode are ruined by LFR. If you could change these to be 'more like' normal mode so you would have to tank properly then I'd be OK with the wipe buff.

Grand Empress in HoF LFR springs to mind. You have to have two tanks and they must switch between stacks. That's proper tactics!

31/01/2013 09:34Posted by Fuhus
Doesn't people usually leave after the first wipe though?

Our current LFR queue times exceed 1 hour so whilst I'm sure some people do QQ -unless the group is awful I generally hang around for a few wipes.
Edited by Maxdru on 31/01/2013 09:54 GMT
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86 Dwarf Priest
12245

This will make it possible to:

1. make LFR HARDER, yes, not a complete faceroll before you wipe a few times.

This means, that mechanics may actually be needed for the first few pulls, people will actually learn. If they can't progress, it will slowly be a faceroll like LFR today.


Not even close, as of now, most people don't even use the dungeon journal and don't have the slightest idea what's going on in a raid.

Am I the only one really hating this concept?

First of all, people apparently learn nothing. I don't believe I'm just unlucky, but at latest the moment raiders don't need lfr gear anymore, it becomes the most annoying experience in the game. Since about end of december I haven't seen one tank who was actually aware of the mechanics in this raid. Everyone just runs around in greens, pvp blues and some BOE items not equipped in the inventory, one half is afk, the other half doesn't know what to do.

I indeed would prefer the lfr to just be a big chest to loot when the alternative is that lfr is anything like it is right now.
Beyond frustrating and the worst experience in this game for any raider.

I assume these changes were made because the thunder king lfr will require people to not fail and move out of the fire, which won't happen, so the time effort for lfr is in no way close to the rewards one can receive and a lot of raiders will stay out of it and therefore the group will never meet any dps requirements until the buff stacked a couple of times.

Exactly for this reason, this group of players not killing anything until the buff stacked, even more players will be afk and wait for the buff to stack to a certain % at which the mechanics can just be ignored. Because that's how it works in the current lfr runs as well, most mechanics are ignored and either the healers got gear or the group will wipe until a fresh set of players is in.

Now please tell me how I explain to my raid why I can't do lfr? The alternative is rage quitting this game because wiping to a boss that could be solo'd (if it wasn't for enrage timers) with 25man feels so amazingly bad that I just can't stand it.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12100
30/01/2013 22:25Posted by Stinkyedita
If you want to make raid finder harder you need to improve the filtering (instead of the useless ilevel limit) so that less bad players get in. Improve the average quality of players and you can buff encounters. You only need to weed out a small number of bad eggs to make a huge difference.


Unfortunately this is not as true as you would believe as in my experience a lot (not all by a long way of course) of the "bad" players are normal mode or heroic mode raiders who just treat LFR with contempt and cant be bothered to do anything properly as "it's only LFR and who cares?". No amount of filtering will filter out those that CAN (and have) done content correctly but who just cant be bothered to do it properly.
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