What happened? was it quality of life that went too far?
I talk about things like weapon skill, visiting class trainer, class quests, hunter that needs to learn how to get a pet, learn to use new weapons, find keys to things and so much more !
Now it's just feels like it's a 3D diablo dungoen farming game. Where did the MMORPG part go ?
Edited by Faylanna on 03/02/13 15:34 (GMT)
Well a lot of it is quality of life stuff, I mean very few people liked the ammo mechanics for hunters and very few people truly loved having to go back to town every 5 mins to learn skills etc.
Other parts of the game became simplified for new players I believe. Back when wow was new and there were only 60 levels people didn't mind it took a while to learn and to level a lot of people stuck with it regardless.
However as the expansions came and end game got further and further away new people were leaving the game because it just took too long or was too hard to close the gap with people who'd been here since the beginning.
I think somethings have indeed been simplified too much but overall I still think there is enough of a challenge in the game if you want it.
Most of what has been removed wasn't real challenge it was a cheap way to waste time and as end game moves further away less and less time sinks are needed.
I do miss the weather effects and the proper night time, though as I work I was almost always playing at night, and it is nice sometimes to play in zones that aren't dark. Maybe one day they'll make it an option that players can turn on and off as they please. I also miss some of the longer quest lines like the Onyxia's Lair one etc some more of those would be nice.
But as I said alot of it would get skipped, time sinks like long quest lines are no longer needed to slow people down on their way to max level in the same way they once were.
Edited by Faylanna on 03/02/13 15:42 (GMT)
Maybe, though I've been playing since 2006 and I for one am happy a lot of the time sinks are gone. I miss somethings but on the whole I think the game has moved in the right direction. I've never been a fan of having grinding in place of challenge.
Something taking a long time =/= hard. And I like hard. Easy gets boring quickly.
Obviously some people feel the exact opposite and so someone will always be disappointed, unfortunately the best they can do is try to please the majority.
Weapon skills could be levelled by finding the right mobs in the blasted lands and auto-attacking them while afk; not really the high-point of a MMORPG.
Keys to dungeons and class quests in dungeons don't work well with LFG; and the rewards were not really worth the effort.
Yes, the large long quests-chains are fun - if they are for current contents (we don't care about a lvl 50 trinket) - such as the legendary quest-chain (some parts need an organized group).
I feel your sentiment here, i think some of those reasons are because blizzard have had to do it due to other potential MMO takings players.
Personally i liked the lvling up your weapon skills
i liked even LOVED the fact i had to get my paladin class mount through bloody hard work (it took me about 4 months to gather items)
Having to get KEYS through quest chains to even enter raids.
Why cant stuff like this be done again.
i mean you kicked us in the fricking teeth with making us having to do daily quests to gain rep to get recipes/gear.
Optional class mounts please with huge quests chains and yes not requiring a bloody raid to do it but reasonably high gold sinks.
Attunement quests please for the love of god bring them back, and to the "i pay to play the game to see all content" me too people and i've not cleared Heart of Fear yet, World events like AQ gates opening give moe please. again a great goldsink if you must.
Edited by Jito on 03/02/13 17:49 (GMT)
They're unnessesary and add little to the game.
Game design should always strive toward achieving the maximum amount of depth out of the minimum amount of complexity.
Things like weapon skills, finding keys, learning how to use weapons, and so on, that stuff adds no depth to the game. There's nothing to it besides doing it. It's not interesting choices or processes or experiences. It's complexity – stuff that new players have to learn to understand the game – that does not nothing besides making the game more complex.
Especially with as big a game as WoW it's important to have simplicity on the surface, so new players can easily jump into the game without being overwhelmed by the amount of rules and things you have to do, whilst still ensuring that the rules that do exist, and the things you can do, that they have a lot of depth to them, so they become difficult to master.
Raiding is a good example of such design. It's incredibly simple on the surface if you do LFR, but has an insane amount of depth if you pursue Heroic Mode for example.
I read in next expansion you can skill blacksmithing in the same way you can skill up cooking.
Visit a trainer, learn some recipes that stay red until the higher levels. Buy the cheap mats for the recipes from the vendor next door. Skill to 525. Then proceed as normal.
I assume, the other professions are to follow. While this makes things quick and easy, and a case of how much gold do you have, as opposed to hunting around to find the mats, it's kinda an insult to those people who either spent hours or thousands of gold levelling the profession up until now.
Just seems a case of dumbing something down that nobody other than people unwilling to put in time, effort or gold had a problem with.
jinto i do not see them as unnessesary, it kinda those things that made the a mmo.
Well, it's easy to say that if you have been playing WoW for years. It's easy to learn new stuff as it gets introduced, because it comes in small bits with each patch or expansion.
But if you're a new player, then you have to learn everything right away. And that can be overwhelming. It's easy as a WoW veteran to feel that the game has been dumbed down over the years. But fact of the matter is that the game has so much more to it than it had back in Vanilla WoW. There's glyphs, archaeology, gems, flying mounts, reforging, valor points, PvP Power, scenarios, arenas, achievements, Death Knights, Monks, transmogrification, mastery, BoA items, and so on.
The game is basically 10x as much as it was when you probably began playing it.
And fact of the matter is that whenever Blizzard introduces something new to WoW, then it adds complexity to the game. It becomes an additional rule that a new players has to know about in order to be able to play the game to its fullest. And naturally, if the game involves has too many rules, and gets too complex, then it becomes inaccessible to new players. And that doesn't work. So therefore it's always nessesary to "trim the fat" so to speak, and remove unnessesary things in the game that don't really add a lot of interesting gameplay to the game, or which have simply become outdated, otherwise the game just gets increasingly more complex.
As I said, the goal is always to have the maximum amount of depth with the minimum amount of complexity. And the reason is that that's the perfect state where both newbies and hardcore veterans can enjoy the same game.
Also...how has Diablo been dumbed down? -_-
I read in next expansion you can skill blacksmithing in the same way you can skill up cooking.
Since the cost of mats are so messed up this is a necessary move.
I just looked at AH: A stack of peacebloom (a herb found in starting areas and used in low level inscription/alchemy) costs 99g; a stack of green tea leaf costs 31g (herb used in high level professions).
Being able to skip that is the game moving on - not dumbing down.
You still have to do the last levels the old way and you can level normally if you want to (actually even easier since cost of low level herbs should go down a lot).
I do miss visiting the class trainer, but in Cata they got it right you shouldn't go back every two levels to get the latest upgrade like it's the apple store.
Weapon skill was fun but frustrating (tanks on Kael'Thas, anyone?), and so on. On the other hand I do like it is now, WoW was and still is an incredibly complicated yet well designed game.
In Diablo 2, the skill system was so terrible that if you were putting points in anything before you reached a certain level it would be incredibly hard to complete the game.
In Diablo 2, the combat was so advanced it mostly revolved around pressing blessed hammer over and over again.
On the original topic, I have mixed opinions. On the listed features, most are either outdated or stupid anyway.
Going back to skill trainers was cool, but at the rate players level these days it's a constant interruption and pain in the !@#.
Weapon skills were stupid. If you pick up a new weapon you then have to go off and autoattack something for a few hours before you could use it. Yes, it's strange to be able to use a new weapon type right away but it really wasn't cool at all and added nothing to the game.
Keys/attunements were cool for a week but rapidly caused problems when bringing new people to something or doing old content.
Class quests are actually really cool. Would love more of these.
Choosing stats was never a process that had a lot of depth to it. It was a matter of knowing how much strength and dexterity you needed, getting that, and then putting the rest of your stat points into vitality.
That's a process that adds complexity to a game, but no depth. It seems involving from the outside, but once you scrape at the surface a bit, then there really is nothing beneath it. It's unnesssary to have something like that in the game, because it makes it less accessible for new players ("Oh boy, I hope I don't place my points somewhere wrong..."), but doesn't create more interesting choices for veteran players (No one in their right mind would consider putting all their points into energy for example).
And you're still building a spec in Diablo III. Just like in WoW, just because your talent choices aren't permanent choices, then that doesn't mean the choices you make don't affect how you play for the time where those choices are in effect.
Scrolls also don't add depth to the gameplay. It's just a tedious process to ask the player to go through.
It doesn't dumb the game down that you don't have to keep a stack of scrolls in your inventory all the time, because that never involved a lot of interesting gameplay in the first place. It was just something you did, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to get back to town.
It's like if I told you to put on your shoes and tie your laces, then untie them, and tie them again, then that doesn't suddenly make the normal process of just putting your shoes on and tying them a "dumbed down" process. Instead, it just reveals that the process of tying, untying, and tying again is a process that's simply tedious. It's not a more interesting process that comes with a lot of choices, decisions, or anything else. It's just an extra mundane task.
The things mentioned by the OP did indeed make the game more fun and more like a RPG.
However, MMORPG's aren't aimed at people that like RPG's anymore so these elements get cut away, and you get basically a non-randomized Boss-Level game of boring Instances.
That's the friendly explanation.
A less friendly is that the snobs took over ie the people that think they are so much smarter than everybody else that while they learned to play the game a-okay, that was due to them being uber-smart instead of the game being pretty simple to begin with (it's an automated, Class Based RPG for heaven's sake) and current newcomers simply are so inferior to them (in their mind) , the game needs to be simplified.
But the historically correct reason was pretty much summed up by
The sad thing is that the same thing happens across the hobby, a concentration of content to the edges as it were
A recent example of this phenomenon is Vanguard's automatic 50% hike in XP and Rep gains for subscribers, changing what was once an old-skool, 'hardcore PvE Journey' title into an 'outGrey to rush to cap' bit for those people stupid enough to support it (yeah having severe buyer's remorse, bite me).