Why was World of Warcraft dumbed down that much?

90 Human Priest
0
I won't ever agree on not hard enough, not epic enough etc etc.. But I will concede this.

I preferred when the classes were more unique. Before PVP balancing really made a huge impact on PVE and before the "bring the player, not the class" thing that never really worked out because even if there was a .1% advantage raids would take it.

The priest class is vastly different to the one I rolled all those years ago, all in the name of balance and "bring the player". It was very niche, with niche spells, many gone or changed or locked to certain specs. Mind control was fun, but OP to have more than one CC so now you have to choose, and the other 2 are far more fluent. Mind vision was fun, but it was changed because of abuse in PVP? The mana battery mechanic was fun, but that would require one of your 18 or so dps to be a shadow priest, so gone. etc. etc. etc. etcetera. Spells we have been given now are flavor, other classes can CC undead, i could go on for hours.

You can argue we have the chakra/shadow orb mechanics, but I'd swap them for the almost full usage and uniqueness of the class as I used to have. Now I cannot even dispel single target, because of PVP or Bring the player. The whole "point" of my spec in Mist is completely different from what I signed up for.

I wouldn't mind, but you cannot argue on having a shadow priest for any PVE reason instead of a warlock. Soloing old raids, dps in current content, brawlers guild. The warlock is simply better unless you count healing, but thats being nerfed too for PVP or whatever.

So "bring the player not the class" still resulted in some classes being better than others, but nerfed all the uniqueness and fun associated with the class that wasn't as good. Now we're all just slightly weaker/stronger versions of each other.

Thats the only dumbing down I really dislike personally. Most of the rest is quality of life, convenience changes.
Edited by Vickii on 06/02/2013 22:50 GMT
MVP
100 Gnome Priest
19395
06/02/2013 21:46Posted by Haerdalish
Complexity gives people more to learn, thus prolonging the life of a game because every time you think you've mastered something, there's always something new to learn.

No, not really.

For example: Checkers is a game of 24 pieces on a board of 64 squares, and the rules are very simple to learn.
This is the complexity part of the game. It's the: "What does it take for me to understand this game so I can play it?"
In the case of checkers, one will probably say that it's not a very complex game – it's a simple game.

However, once you start playing checkers you'll discover that there's a myriad of stategies and different ways to approach winning.
This is the depth part of the game. For as simple as checkers appears on the outside, it suddenly opens up near-endless possibilities in terms of simply playing it.

This relation between complexity and depth where you have as little complexity as possible, but as much depth as possible, that also makes for the infamous sentence of: Easy to learn, difficult to master.

With WoW it's the same thing.
If you take your Elemental Shaman, then it's not difficult to learn to play it. The game gives you fairly simple spells that are easy to understand, and you get them slowly over time so it's easy to get used to how they function.
However, just because playing a character in WoW is no great feat, then it doesn't take away from the fact that there's an enormous difference in character performance between players. Getting the top dps ranking in the world, or the fastest clears in Challenge Modes, or the highest rankings in PvP, that is easier said than done. And that's where the depth in WoW lies. For as simple as the game is to learn, as difficult is it to master any aspects of the game, be that Challenge Modes, Heroic Mode Raids, Arenas, Rated Battlegrounds, or whatever.

On the other hand, having a keyring, or needing to visit a class trainer every level, or having to use a weapon on monster to improve your skill with it, that never added any depth to WoW. That was just stuff you did. And once you had done it, there was nothing more to it. It's not like anyone was better at managing their keyring than others, and it's not like grinding weapon skills was an exercise that involved a lot of choices, decisions, and practise. No. You just went to the Blasted Lands and found one of the mobs that couldn't die, and then proceeded to hit it for a few hours. That's not depth.

06/02/2013 21:46Posted by Haerdalish
WoW has degenerated to the level where you could simply remove all specializations and simply replace them with "warrior, mage, healer" and let people cherry pick a few spells.

Come say that when you have world first kills, high dps scores, high challenge mode placements, gladiator titles, and so on.

But considering the fact that you don't have any of those, I think it's more fair to say that you still haven't exhausted the depth the game currently offers, because you haven't exactly mastered the gameplay aspects yet, have you? Or do you consider yourself as having mastered the game because you know how to farm reputation for keys, grind weapon skills, and talk to a class trainer?
90 Human Priest
10150
Incomplete post above tried to edit but it won't allow.

To finish the idea:
Checkers is estimated to have around 10^20 possible cases in which players can end up with.
Checkers involve a lot of user constructive play, socialising and a huge reward for those who are good at the game.

Wow has gear.

1. You get gear levelling, everyone is rushed trough that and thought gear is irrelevant because there is better.
2. Bad designed patches rushed trough and changed. Just so you could get new gear which will be irrelevant in the next patch.
3. Unwanted time sink, there is no value for the effort. It's no way to actually put a price on your efforts.
4. The complexity is an actual login, cap some numbers do something else. What's the point again ?

You could say marmelade go play something else. I wold say funk you sir. I think this game was great and i want it to become great again, with passionate thinking and immersive design.

And sorry Jitter, but i have no respect for tree-humpers who think they can grow bananas in apple trees "out of pure love".
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Worgen Druid
6570
I'm sorry Jito.
But you are really dumb. Comparing wow to checkers is like comparing chess with !@#$%^-*!ing.


That's not exactly going to get you very far in this discussion. I think Jito's post was very clear and concise, and having never played checkers but seen it, I can understand what Jito means. You on the other hand have given nothing in that post, giving me the impression you're trolling.

I'm only here to say that I agree with that point about the Elemental Shaman not being too complex, but having quite a bit of depth later on should one know what to do with it and how. It's like a toolbox - it may look like a hunk of metal and wooden sticks, but it's what one does with it that counts. Having more tools doesn't make your job easier, you'll only use the appropriate tools for the job. Can you use a spanner to hammer in a nail? No. Use the right tool for the job. Can you fix a drainpipe with a monkeywrench? No. Use the right tool for the job.

In most cases with things like the keyring on these "weapon skills", they had no reason to be in the game, they didn't serve much of a purpose. One could do them because it was perhaps convinient, but wouldn't it be more convinient not to have them? As I joined in Cataclysm, I was born 'n' raised with convinience handed out, and things like the keyring went over my head as I levelled - they served no purpose and I didn't know what key fits which hole, etc. Valuable life's lesson is that.

So yes, I think comparing WoW to checkers is a very good idea - on the outside it's simple, but until you play the game there's far more than marmalizing dwarves with hammers and magic missiles.
90 Night Elf Priest
6575
03/02/2013 17:47Posted by Jito
Game design should always strive toward achieving the maximum amount of depth out of the minimum amount of complexity


So.. hitting lvl 90 and finding your endgame begins with pushing a plough? Not really a high amount of depth either ;)
1 Worgen Hunter
0
07/02/2013 05:07Posted by Jonní
So yes, I think comparing WoW to checkers is a very good idea - on the outside it's simple, but until you play the game there's far more than marmalizing dwarves with hammers and magic missiles.


Mate that's foolishness. You want to know why? Because I don't pay 15 bones a month to play checkers 20 hours a week. Why? Because checkers is boring. Tic tac toe is even more simple, and totally balanced...I don't play that either. Cause it's boring.

The dumbed down bit is a sense that gamers have. There is a lot of denying going on from devs, and other players. But one cannot escape the feeling. And I think we are starting to see the logic that, "well you're so much better now that it feels dumbed down".

I think the feeling is perhaps not being communicated clearly. People on this thread have pointed out some of the things, which is met with, "but that wasn't fun", for example having a trainer train you.

But it is exactly the feeling that people are talking about. You are not "building" a character, you are blazing to the paper doll game that has replaced anything meaningful in your character. For a lot of players the Transmog run is 50% of the endgame and the other 50% is dailies/lfr. Neither of these build the legend of your toon.

The secondary issue I believe is enforced socialization and the "communization" of gear. Everyone gets gear, everyone gets epics, everyone gets legendaries, everyone gets that transmog, everyone beats the raid. When using everyone in a sentence with "getting something" the easy comparison is communism. It is very possible that the end result of communism is a lack of dynamism in the populace which leads to dissatisfaction in the highest performing group.

The goal of this expac seems to have been to force players to play all aspects of the game and to put everyone on effectively the same treadmill. The complete crushing of the dungeon culture, the rise of the daily, the carefully crafted gear ladder for raiding. This expac is a precision machine of "satisfaction". Which feels ultimately somewhat hollow. It's homogenized.

As a wizard once said, "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain". Many long time players are seeing the machination. When the core, the hardcore, the "connectors" take their toys and go home the fallout will be significant. Guilds will fall apart, people will be frustrated and swaths of groups will exit the game. Without that core the rest of it has to move toward more casual, more communist, more everyone for everything to keep people playing, and the target age will slip.

I think it is a classic slide, it is like Fashion, or music. As popularity rises the target audience slips down in age or "coolness". The musician is forced to reinvent and stay current, or pander to the broadest audience and gradually lose the elan that made them popular in the first place.

So really, for me anyway, it is hard to say that Wow hasn't dumbed down.
Edited by Algi on 07/02/2013 15:27 GMT
85 Tauren Druid
0
Algi nailed it. This is what it's about. When you cater to the lowest common denominator, you lose all sense of uniqueness, and you will end up losing your loyal base of fans because there's nothing unique about your product - in this case a game - to stay loyal to.

To make a game more user friendly doesn't have to mean dumbing it down. But to make the whole experience - from A to Z - something anyone can complete, no matter what skill level and how much time invested, then you get an experience that feels homogenized. Sterile. Lifeless. Dumbed down.

I think most people that feel a game is "dumbed downed" feel what I explained above.
90 Night Elf Druid
17425
There is another fact to be added to the game.. while we had ALL those things.. game had 12mil subs(WotLK), blizz started removing things and making game easier.. game is losing subs.

Im not saying it's cause of weapon skill and trainer spells but it's just another thing of the list some players enjoyed doing and are leaving because it's simply not the same game anymore.

Raiding dumped down, more and more people have access to it, could it be a bad thing?

Check out this vid about wow now and then - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo

My opinion is that the game is going into a wrong direction.
12 Night Elf Druid
0
Well, it's easy to say that if you have been playing WoW for years. It's easy to learn new stuff as it gets introduced, because it comes in small bits with each patch or expansion.But if you're a new player, then you have to learn everything right away. And that can be overwhelming. It's easy as a WoW veteran to feel that the game has been dumbed down over the years. But fact of the matter is that the game has so much more to it than it had back in Vanilla WoW. There's glyphs, archaeology, gems, flying mounts, reforging, valor points, PvP Power, scenarios, arenas, achievements, Death Knights, Monks, transmogrification, mastery, BoA items, and so on.The game is basically 10x as much as it was when you probably began playing it.


I disagree.

Lets look at raids (I didnt do any at MOP, but know them quite well).

At Vanilla it took a good guild to clear a new raid several weeks. A medicore guild or casual, some months.
Today you join the LFR and a few hours later you have finished the content.

Do you see the big difference there? In vanilla you were busy for many weeks, today for several hours.

Lets look at pvp

In vanilla you had a real competition within your faction. You always had to be better than the other players, you had to win a lot and these BG´s did last 1 or 2 hours.

Today you have 5 min arena games where a fotm wins. But even if you dont win, you will be a winner at the end of the season.

Again, its missing the depth.

Lets look at professions

In vanilla a profession really was something to look forward to. You could brew potions, you could craft the very important res gear etc.

Today crafting is kinda silly, the items for raiding do drop at raids - you also get pots from daily´s etc. The only real prof is gem crafting, but the others? Its just once again lacking the depth, a goal so to speak.

Lets look at questing and char development.

At Vanilla you had zones that kept you busy for hours, like Arathi or lakeridge. Quest zones with elite quest´s, where you were not strong enough and had to lvl further first. You knew, when your char gains a lvl, gets a new item you will be stronger and can enter a new zone.

Today you lvl so fast that you never have any issue´s with a quest. You can rush through the game and it doesnt matter if you are 30 or 33.
Again there is no depth in the game.

Like these points, many are in the game which are poor today - but were awesome back then.

Things like BoA ruined the game more, than they helped - so did the removal of elite quest´s, high end raiding, high end pvp etc.

I dont deny that you can do more things today, but the "how" is what matters and there wow has lost a lot of its depth and fun.

I currently lvl my pally, I had a longer break and I am just frustrated that I cant finish any lvl zone without running into grew quest´s. My professions do lack behind, as I outlvl them every time.
All the craft´s that I make are useless for me, as my char lvls too fast. Where is the fun in that?

I was lvl 30 and did need flesh for cooking, that flesh just didnt drop in my lvl zone but at the starting area. Same issue´s with blacksmithing, when I was 30 I could only craft stuff for lvl 20 etc.

There vanilla was much much better balanced.

I dont belong to these people that hate everything about wow today, yes I think the LFD and LFR were good but they just were designed wrong.

Why cant a player select heroic raids at LFR? Why cant a player select timed runs at LFD? Why cant I have a list with player that were friendly so we group up again? Why can strangers not be kicked if they are unfriendly? Why cant we select more options if we enter a group finder tool? Id love to play with casuals and adults, why cant I tick a box for that?

Etc.

Pvp today is also a waste. I dont know about you, but I had 3 premades at vanilla and we met other premades and did battle for hours. Today I join a game and end up with people that just want to lose the game in the shortest amount of time as its the most rewarding thing.... Where is the fun in this?

Why cant i select my group members more specific? As a healer id love to have some tanks too or atleast 1 more healer etc.

Blizz has taken the choice for grouping totally out of our hands. While I did welcome the feature of an automated tool, we players still should have a choice! Its not fun to end up with people that dont match you.
06/02/2013 21:46Posted by Haerdalish
Complexity gives people more to learn, thus prolonging the life of a game because every time you think you've mastered something, there's always something new to learn.


Throw too much complexity to a game, and then suddenly you're not prolonging its life, but rather, overwhelming newcomers.

06/02/2013 21:46Posted by Haerdalish
The people that are usually the most adamant against complexity are the ones that don't have the patience to learn something properly and demand that it be lowered to their level so they can "enjoy everything right off the bat".


As long as you have a challenge at some level on the game (for some it will be Heroic Sha of Fear, for others it will be Shado-Pan Monastery Challenge Mode trying to get gold, for others it'll be Garalon Normal, for others getting to 2.5k rating on PVP... I could go on) what's the harm if things are made more accessible to other players? (As long as you have your challenge)

The LFR is a great example of this, instant gratification with absolutely no commitment required. No preparation required, no need to know what the bosses do, no nothing. Just go in, spam 3-4 buttons and you're done.

And you want this to be encouraged? Christ, modern gamers make the mind boggle.

It's not quite instant gratification (you have to defeat the boss, do the whole run, etc etc), neither on the same level of rewards that players get for completing Normal of Heroic content.

I disagree.

Lets look at raids (I didnt do any at MOP, but know them quite well).

At Vanilla it took a good guild to clear a new raid several weeks. A medicore guild or casual, some months.
Today you join the LFR and a few hours later you have finished the content.

Do you see the big difference there? In vanilla you were busy for many weeks, today for several hours.

Lets look at pvp

In vanilla you had a real competition within your faction. You always had to be better than the other players, you had to win a lot and these BG´s did last 1 or 2 hours.

Today you have 5 min arena games where a fotm wins. But even if you dont win, you will be a winner at the end of the season.

Again, its missing the depth.


That's not depth. Content in vanilla required more preparation, but bosses were much, much easier than today's Heroic content.

The duration of the content doesn't have much to do with the depth of the game. In fact, there's much more depth and complexity in overcoming your opposition on a Rated Battleground today (as strategies keep evolving as the community does and teams can be very coordinated) as opposed to trying to cap Lumber Mill for the 100th time with a bunch of strangers that refuse to stay in their bases and would rather camp the roads.

07/02/2013 16:06Posted by Ráchel
I dont deny that you can do more things today, but the "how" is what matters and there wow has lost a lot of its depth and fun.

Many of the things that have been mentioned on discussions like this have to do with "the grind" more than the activity itself.

Was Battleguard Sartura a fun encounter in Ahn'Qiraj? Sure, it was.
Was it incredibly fun to farm the resistance sets required for some bosses back then? I'm not so sure there's going to be a common agreement there...
94 Tauren Druid
9955
The dumbed down bit is a sense that gamers have. There is a lot of denying going on from devs, and other players. But one cannot escape the feeling. And I think we are starting to see the logic that, "well you're so much better now that it feels dumbed down".


There have been a few threads like this recently, and a common factor seems to be that people are throwing around phrases like 'dumbed down' and 'lowest common denominator' a lot, without really being able to quantify it.

On the other hand those that are raising counterpoints are able to provide more specific examples of how this isn't really true. For example

- Classic levelling was never difficult, it just required more grouping. Once in a group it was just as easy as solo content now.

- Classic raiding was in no way more difficult than it is now, in fact it was much simpler. It just required a lot more grinding in preparation and a more specific group composition

- A large part of the 'epic feeling' of any great game comes from it being new. Once you've played it for a long time, you can't get this back however great the improvements are.

The fact is that levelling was always easy, and there are endgame activities for all skill levels now. If anything the more difficult content rewards skill muchj more now than it did before, when it favoured time spent grinding.

So it's all well and good to make vague assertions about how things 'feel', but when you actually step back and look at the evidence, there's really very little ground for them. I really think that for a lot of people, the illusion of being really skilled back in classic simply because they had a lot of time to play has been shattered, and they don't like it.
Edited by Coriandra on 07/02/2013 17:32 GMT
100 Human Death Knight
20420
The game used to be alot better back in TBC/Wotlk. All of this "nerfs" made the game way too easy. Cant you just let the new players just learn the game, instead of making the game easy?
94 Tauren Druid
9955
07/02/2013 17:29Posted by Adlian
The game used to be alot better back in TBC/Wotlk. All of this "nerfs" made the game way too easy. Cant you just let the new players just learn the game, instead of making the game easy?


Sorry, but this is a great example of what I just posted above. Can you quantify what it was that was so much harder back then ?
90 Pandaren Monk
5235
Weapon skills could be levelled by finding the right mobs in the blasted lands and auto-attacking them while afk; not really the high-point of a MMORPG.

Keys to dungeons and class quests in dungeons don't work well with LFG; and the rewards were not really worth the effort.

Yes, the large long quests-chains are fun - if they are for current contents (we don't care about a lvl 50 trinket) - such as the legendary quest-chain (some parts need an organized group).

The rewards not worth the effort? Almost every single one of them were well worth the effort, giving items of great worth.

@ Coriandra, there are plenty of examples of why it was harder, if you missed them i suggest you reread those threads, they -were- posted.
Edited by Aeye on 07/02/2013 17:35 GMT
94 Tauren Druid
9955
07/02/2013 17:34Posted by Aeye
@ Coriandra, there are plenty of examples of why it was harder, if you missed them i suggest you reread those threads, they -were- posted.


Not really, there are plenty of examples of how things used to take longer, it's not the same thing.
90 Pandaren Monk
5235
Also @ Jitto

It is precisely because the challenge is greatly lessened that many players dont find it worth the effort to even bother. Precisely because they know they might actually be able to do it all.

Whereas in the past they probably knew they wouldnt come even close, because it was just that challenging.
Personally i still remember well the days when it was a challenge just to finish a single TBC heroic. (because even with an elite 5 man group they were just that damn hard)
However that great challenge also made it worth trying.

People might claim things such as ''but you were newer to the game back then, and not as skilled''
Actually, i was more skilled back then, seeing how i played more and my memory wasnt as full of holes as now.

The game indeed got a lot easier over the years, leaving perhaps only the heroic raids or challenge modes as things that -might- be considered a challenge. Whereas before even questing/leveling could be a challenge.
90 Pandaren Monk
5235
07/02/2013 17:39Posted by Coriandra
@ Coriandra, there are plenty of examples of why it was harder, if you missed them i suggest you reread those threads, they -were- posted.


Not really, there are plenty of examples of how things used to take longer, it's not the same thing.

There were plenty of examples posted of things harder, honestly.
You should really read the other threads, or your claim that no examples were made holds zero base, at all.
94 Tauren Druid
9955
I can't claim to have memorised every word of each thread, but I have read through them already. Give me an example ?
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