Why was World of Warcraft dumbed down that much?



Yeah, then you lose 4% DPS and people call your mum a goat.


Take a look onto your talents at level 45. Which of them would be a loss to dps if you wont take it?

Try not to exaggerate.


Wow, that's easy. You take elusiveness so you can stand in AoEs more and keep dishing out damage.

Cheat death is useless since you shouldn't be pulling aggro/getting hit during boss fights, leeching poison is even more useless because AoE healing is through the roof.

Gotta leave office now, think this discussion is over for me for the week.
90 Night Elf Druid
17425
08/02/2013 15:47Posted by Nessaya
Why do you think that making the game less accessible again would bring back the old times?


It probably wouldn't as different people play the game right now(people that are used to different stuff), but it would for sure bring people that moved away cause of the changes but that's probably as far as it would go.

I think if blizzard never changed the way was going and if they kept it like old times I doubt game would suffer as much as today. When content was not accessible by everyone(this also counts for Ulduar to ICC times(not really Naxx)) I didn't see many people being unhappy cause of it.. it was lovely to try and get the motivation to raid even with 30% buff in ICC not many guilds had an easy job on LK25 hc, mainly cause you had to know how to use the buff rather than wait for boss HP/dmg nerf.

Now we will kill an end boss of the expansion by pressing one button(queue LFR) and that's it, some may say but you got heroics and normals.. yes you do but it's pretty much the same boss and everyone who could press a button to queue had a chance to see it and defeat it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo

Wow, that's easy. You take elusiveness so you can stand in AoEs more and keep dishing out damage.


Even on bosses doing no aoe damage?


Cheat death is useless since you shouldn't be pulling aggro/getting hit during boss fights


Even on bosses where youve got to take high damage, as like, lets say ultraxion?


leeching poison is even more useless because AoE healing is through the roof.


Even if you could help healers in add phases on a boss that spawns a lot of adds you would have to kill?

Talents today allow choices based on situations, if you take them.

If you use one talent only because its more easy, thats your decision.


Gotta leave office now, think this discussion is over for me for the week.


Good bye.
Edited by Nessaya on 08/02/2013 16:35 GMT
1 Worgen Hunter
0
08/02/2013 15:47Posted by Nessaya
Why do you think that making the game less accessible again would bring back the old times?


Why is creating context for a character in a role playing game equated with inaccessibility?
Is flying to stormwind (or a closer city) to learn that spell making the game inaccessible?

Why not just let people hit a button once and be max level? If your answer to this is it doesn't make blizzard enough money then you are 100% bought into the model that a rewarding gameplay is less important than one that is easy, repetitive with a sparkly carrot dangled just out of reach.

The arc of the game is moving towards that one button win, with endless mindless tasks on a hamster wheel to keep you in the game. The foil to that (I would assume from long term player/devs that don't want to lose all their audience) is to create mini-games where skill can be a factor, but by the mere fact they are mini they defeat the "role playing" aspect of the game. A cohesive mesh of character driven tasks that result in the increasing abilities of our hero, this is the core of an RPG.

I would say there is a difference between being "happy" and feeling accomplished. The game (dare I say culture) is driving toward happiness being the end point, but happiness is hollow, it's empty emotional calories. And when you stop being happy, you are left cold.
90 Worgen Hunter
10705
everything today feels the same every class has nearly the same thing what made classes unique is now complety ruined and thats what i miss even for pvp u could go in all specs and still have a good time now its all forced down 1 spec and some classes arent even viable that aspect alone is realy disapointing i know ballanced on these parts where never that good but it feels like since early wrath it went out of whack too big numbers talents whit retarded amount of damage or utility it lost its middleground some will say yeah thats ballancing while its not its only making the game aspect worse as for feeling rewarded for grinding etc isnt that what a mmorpg is supose to be about to feel rewarded for achieving something actualy i realy cant say this anymore every thing feels like its taken for granted leveling doesnt even feel rewarded anymore statswise lorewise and skillwise u cant built skill if there is no hardship in it thats why i am realy disapointed whit curent builds of specs they could of simplified it yes but at some point it just doesnt feel rewarding any more its even so sad now that its like cc pop ur iwin cd's and take honour and walk on no longer any battles that mean something in pvp healers are now even mandotary when they where optional which was actualy good it doesnt feel much like a battle anymore as for lore horde alliance wise it doesnt feel good at all if u play through the whole expansion doing the quests and reading most of the quests its so out of whack whit some parts that u realy get disapointed something are simply made too casual *
thats why i dislike wow as it is now
90 Human Hunter
13715


I think he wants a coherent and immersive game world.


By feeding his pet and building ammo? I dont understand why the world is less immersive if you cant play tamagotchi ingame or do not need to carry ammo in your limited bags?


Because having to feed your pet and carrying a limitied supply of ammo makes sense within the game world that is Azeroth.

Everyone has different boundaries and thresholds when it comes to immersion, and obviously the Devs decide where to go when immersive factors clash with gameplay/accessability/etc.
Personally I think they have been deciding wrong most of the time since mid WotLK, but I accept that this game has nothing to offer to me in its current iteration except for raiding with my guild.
Why do you think that making the game less accessible again would bring back the old times?


It probably wouldn't as different people play the game right now(people that are used to different stuff), but it would for sure bring people that moved away cause of the changes but that's probably as far as it would go.


A lot of people moved away. All of them due to their own reasons. How many of them left for the game becoming more accessible? And how many gamers would be lost if the game was less accessible?


I think if blizzard never changed the way was going and if they kept it like old times I doubt game would suffer as much as today.


I think it would, as the game always was catered to its players and not vice versa. People often mix up cause and effect. An example is the dungeon finder, which is being held responsible for dead realm communities, while infact the burning crusade turned realm communities into guild communities, partly as a natural process, partly because of its unforgiving linear progression path.


When content was not accessible by everyone(this also counts for Ulduar to ICC times(not really Naxx)) I didn't see many people being unhappy cause of it..


There were. Or why do you think blizzard changed that? See cause and effect.


Now we will kill an end boss of the expansion by pressing one button(queue LFR) and that's it, some may say but you got heroics and normals.. yes you do but it's pretty much the same boss and everyone who could press a button to queue had a chance to see it and defeat it.


But there are still challenges, if you really want them. As it seems, there are a lot of peple who dont need challenges in a game (as like me, for example) but just play it for fun. Those are the people which lfr has been made for.

Do you want to lose all those people for a nostalgic game play?
Edited by Nessaya on 08/02/2013 17:00 GMT

Because having to feed your pet and carrying a limitied supply of ammo makes sense within the game world that is Azeroth.


No, it doesnt. It works without, as you see in current hunter class design.

People carry much stuff in their bags today, bag space is more limitied as it was ever before.


Personally I think they have been deciding wrong most of the time since mid WotLK, but I accept that this game has nothing to offer to me in its current iteration except for raiding with my guild.


Thats your right to think. I think they catered to the evolution of their playerbase.
1 Worgen Hunter
0
08/02/2013 16:18Posted by Nessaya
By feeding his pet and building ammo? I dont understand why the world is less immersive if you cant play tamagotchi ingame or do not need to carry ammo in your limited bags?


They are examples... You get that right? Examples of things that were removed apparently in the name of accesibility. Things that made the game "easier" if you could claim that feeding a pet was hard. And crafting ammo was the point, not stuffing your bags with crap. You were a hunting machine, and a hunting machine makes ammo, hand crafted.

They're examples of things that fit perfectly with the character. It's a pet, an animal you tamed... Why shouldn't you need to feed it, and keep it happy? Why even bother having to tame them? Why not just get a book of pets that you can select from? I mean have you camped Loque before? Talk about a soul killing time waste. I should just be able to pick it out of a book of pets, fill my stable with whatever.

How many players quit I wonder because they had to find fish for their pet? Disaster averted.
Why do you think that making the game less accessible again would bring back the old times?


Why is creating context for a character in a role playing game equated with inaccessibility?
Is flying to stormwind (or a closer city) to learn that spell making the game inaccessible?


Is not flying to stormwind but learning it by doing while leveling making the game more accessible as it only costs time?


Why not just let people hit a button once and be max level?


Because people want to play the game? Dont try to exaggerate.


A cohesive mesh of character driven tasks that result in the increasing abilities of our hero, this is the core of an RPG.


But visiting a teacher is just a time sink. Just to take your example.


I would say there is a difference between being "happy" and feeling accomplished. The game (dare I say culture) is driving toward happiness being the end point, but happiness is hollow, it's empty emotional calories. And when you stop being happy, you are left cold.


I am still happy by playing the game. I am an old time player as well. I play this game since start, and loved every evolutionary stage of this game. I went from being hardcore to being a complete casual gamer today.

I dont miss anything from the past, as it is over. I play the game what it is today and have a lot of fun doing so.
Edited by Nessaya on 08/02/2013 16:56 GMT
90 Night Elf Druid
17425
08/02/2013 16:42Posted by Nessaya
Do you want to lose all those people for a nostalgic game play?


Thing is, it's already fu*ked up and there is no solution to it, you make game hard you lose people, you make game easy you lose people.

Secretly behind everything it's a special snowflake issue, cause a lot of people play to be special and unique and are often having those "meh" thoughts when someone does the same thing as them both in PvP(elite weapons and 4.2) and PvE.

And a funny wow vid by WoWCrendor cause every thread needs a bit of laugh :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbT-cW8Zb7o
08/02/2013 16:47Posted by Algi
By feeding his pet and building ammo? I dont understand why the world is less immersive if you cant play tamagotchi ingame or do not need to carry ammo in your limited bags?


They are examples... You get that right? Examples of things that were removed apparently in the name of accesibility.


What about bringing in good example then? Sorry, but neither pet feeding nor ammo crafting has anything to do with accessibility.


Things that made the game "easier" if you could claim that feeding a pet was hard.


Thats a hard claim to believe.


They're examples of things that fit perfectly with the character. It's a pet, an animal you tamed... Why shouldn't you need to feed it, and keep it happy?


.. which would be a minigame, but nothing which would have anything to do with accessibilty.


Why even bother having to tame them? Why not just get a book of pets that you can select from? I mean have you camped Loque before? Talk about a soul killing time waste. I should just be able to pick it out of a book of pets, fill my stable with whatever.


Because its probably part of a hunter to tame his companion, but not a matter of accessibility.


How many players quit I wonder because they had to find fish for their pet? Disaster averted.


I think people would love that, as it would be an additional part of the taming process.

Still.. this has nothing to do with accessibility.
90 Troll Hunter
9215
08/02/2013 16:20Posted by Nessaya
Yeah, i think that those minigames are fun. I play pet battles during leveling alts.

The difference is that pet battles and Archaeology have no effect on the performance of my character and are in no way related to my class.

It was a grind yes, but they felt like things a hunter should be doing. Just like leveling skill with every weapon made sense for a warrior and learning to pick locks and making poisons made sense for a rogue.

I blundered around in BRD until I found the repair-bot schematic.
I ground LBRS for the UBRS key.
I did the Onyxia quest chain.
I probably would never have learned how to jump-shoot if I hadn’t needed to do it to get my Rhok'delar, Longbow of the Ancient Keepers
I killed about 800 of the elite dragonkin in Winterspring to get my Mature Blue Dragon Sinew, since my guild no longer farmed Azuregos.

I had a lot of fun doing it. Anyone rolling a hunter today will never get to do these things and I find that sad.
Edited by Yme on 08/02/2013 17:03 GMT

I blundered around in BRD until I found the repair-bot schematic.


I did do that as well.


I grinded LBRS for the UBRS key.


Did do that with my priest.


I did the Onyxia quest chain.


Did that as well with a lot of chars and people from the guild (as alliance, you had to free the guy from brd all the time.. which became really dull after we had to do that for the 20th time).


I probably would never have learned how to jump-shoot if I hadn’t needed to do it to get my Rhok'delar, Longbow of the Ancient Keepers


I did the epic quest chain as well. Also the priest one.


I killed about 800 of the elite dragonkin in Winterspring to get my Mature Blue Dragon Sinew, since my guild no longer farmed Azuregos.


I cant remember where i got that from.. i remember the eye for the priest dropped in the demon part of winterspring. Long ago.


I had a lot of fun doing it. Anyone rolling a hunter today will never get to do these things and I find that sad.


Yeah, it was funny. I still dont miss it, as it is part of the past. The old days did not only bring epic quest chains, but also a lot of imbalances, a lot of bad class design, easy bosses, long waiting times for dungeons, long grind sessions and overtuned bosses where you had to wipe way too much..

Vanilla had its strengths and its weaks as well. Often people just forget about the weaks and even think that those weaks were great, even if they werent. Often people wish those weaks back in the game even if it would make the game worse.
1 Worgen Hunter
0
08/02/2013 16:44Posted by Nessaya
No, it doesnt. It works without, as you see in current hunter class design.


Ah so it's perfect as it is. Totally immersive. See that's where I was wrong, I thought I had an opinion but now i know that really it's you that gets one.

08/02/2013 16:54Posted by Nessaya
What about bringing in good example then? Sorry, but neither pet feeding nor ammo crafting has anything to do with accessibility.


Okay, so at this point anything I say you can easily reply with, that's not about accessibility.

Pet management was removed, pets changed to be a vanilla set that all share the same three talent trees, and ammo removed. Call it what you want, I call it dumbing down.
90 Night Elf Hunter
1920
<- Nessayas hunter, see the transmog bow
90 Gnome Mage
8945
08/02/2013 17:01Posted by Yme
I had a lot of fun doing it. Anyone rolling a hunter today will never get to do these things and I find that sad.


Whilst I might not agree with a lot of what you've said so far, I do agree with this point.

I think it's a shame class-specific quests have long since been removed - an error I hope they've started to correct with the Warlock green fire quest.

Next up? Hunters will be able to repeatedly kill the same mob in the hope they drop something pretty.
1 Worgen Hunter
0
08/02/2013 17:09Posted by Nessaya
Vanilla had its strengths and its weaks as well. Often people just forget about the weaks and even think that those weaks were great, even if they werent. Often people wish those weaks back in the game even if it would make the game worse.


See here is where I think you are steering off the road. I never said it was great and oh the glory days of vanilla. A lot stuff annoyed me, there were some real slow sections in leveling, the chained mobs wasn't always fun, or feeling like I missed a bunch of content because I often could only play solo.

I never said the game sucked now either... I said I want to feel like my toon is coming from somewhere and going somewhere and that the things I do in the game contribute to the success I achieve. It's missing, and headed even further in that direction and I am expressing my opinion that moving in that direction is going to reduce subs rather than increase them.


That's not depth. Content in vanilla required more preparation, but bosses were much, much easier than today's Heroic content.


BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

thanks for showing your ignorance :)


Ah, you're welcome, I'll educately bow down my head in a sincere apology, as you have eloquently, elaboratedly and irrefutably proved through facts and your own experience that I am completely wrong about this affirmation.

PS: NO.

If you want to say I'm wrong, at least go on and elaborate why. We all might be missing an interesting point of view just because you decided to take a shortcut that didn't add anything to the discussion.

08/02/2013 14:14Posted by Naq
Most of current encounters are just combination of total randomness that decides will you wipe or not (sunbeams spawning on top of the adds on Tsulong as example). It's not hard, it's just random.


So, a boss that you can predictably determine which ability is going to cast next (any vanilla boss with a DBM-like addon) is harder than a boss with more room for random abilities? Random sounds actually like a good reason to define something as hard. If you can't control it, you can't just yawn through it.

08/02/2013 15:47Posted by Nessaya
Why do you think that making the game less accessible again would bring back the old times?


This is an interesting question, especially for those of you that do consider reducing the accesibility of the game would bring back players. (As a side related note, since we're mostly talking about raiding content, remember that Patch 5.2 introduces a Heroic only boss, Ra-den).

Okay, so at this point anything I say you can easily reply with, that's not about accessibility.

Pet management was removed, pets changed to be a vanilla set that all share the same three talent trees, and ammo removed. Call it what you want, I call it dumbing down.


Has the mechanic of the hunter (requiring an appropiate pet to be used at every time if you want to maximize your dps output) and its damage (you're insane if you weren't using the strongest ammo available to you) become simpler just because now you don't have to feed your pet or pick the highest dps available ammo?
No, it doesnt. It works without, as you see in current hunter class design.


Ah so it's perfect as it is. Totally immersive. See that's where I was wrong, I thought I had an opinion but now i know that really it's you that gets one.


Well, i just dont miss to create ammo. Also i dont miss to feed the pet. Sorry.

I just think thats a matter of preference.


Pet management was removed, pets changed to be a vanilla set that all share the same three talent trees, and ammo removed. Call it what you want, I call it dumbing down.


Pets are, compared to classic, just vanity items, as they dont own any special abilities anymore.

I remember as a low level hunter taming the bear at the cave above darkshore, which had a comparable higher level of a special ability.. i remember i tamed the bat from zul gurub. I remember that taming pets just was knowing which pet had the better ability.

I never thought that this was fair, as it gave imbalance to those who just knew where a special pet with a special ability was sitting.

I remember broken tooth, a cat near uldaman, which had a high attack speed. It was great for pvp.

But hey, is that really balanced then?
Edited by Nessaya on 08/02/2013 17:19 GMT
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