Invocation on PTR: no cooldown, heals 80k in 2.6 secs.

90 Pandaren Mage
8700
Not that powerfull, worlthless for arcane mages (-50 mana regen), only +15% damage.

This is not overpowered, but I wouldn't mind a short CD. (for healing, not to reobtain damage buff).
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90 Draenei Shaman
6105
Not that powerfull, worlthless for arcane mages (-50 mana regen), only +15% damage.

This is not overpowered, but I wouldn't mind a short CD. (for healing, not to reobtain damage buff).

It's op.
Very op.
It's not up for discussion.
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Community
We hear you, we really do. I’d just like to reinforce that it’s only PTR so don’t get overly upset about it, but please do continue to keep providing feedback about it, this is exactly when it’s needed the most, it’s one of the core reasons we have a PTR realm in the first place and we really do appreciate your help with tuning and balancing the game during this important stage.

So… Invocation. Duration and healing got reduced by 50%, it does seem like it should end up being the same “on average” as it is on live but I do realize that it’s actually not, it’s probably a lot more powerful for PvP as it is on the PTR right now.
I mean, the healing ends up being the same (on average, as in “healing per second”) as it is now on live, but the important fact that we have to retain here is that the heal only comes at the end of the cast, and in PvP that means a lot, it means that you can get interrupted and get no healing or DPS buff from it.

With a 3 second cast and no cooldown, things change; First, if you do get interrupted you will be able to cast it as soon as the interrupt effect wears off; Secondly, interrupting a 3 second cast (can be shortened by haste) is much harder than a 6 second one, so chances are, a mage will be able to complete his Invocations with a lot more ease.
Devs are still evaluating everything about the PTR, there isn’t much that they can’t tweak if they feel it’s necessary.
I hope that my reply is clear enough in the sense that it provides you with enough certainty and confidence about your point of view being understood, we’re definitely not ignoring you, we’ll evaluate everyone’s feedback like we always do, and you can be sure that it will be conveyed to the developers.
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90 Human Mage
7690
Is fine as it is, don't give up to haters :D
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100 Human Mage
10585
And yet again the imbalanced part of this particular spell is in 1v1 and maybe, just maybe in 2v2.
I dare you to cast full evocation without CC'ing the whole 3v3 team at current state of arena. You will never have a breathing room enough to cast Evocation, even if it's a 3sec cast.
In a situation where this particular spell is in a good spot in 3v3 is when you are required to heal yourself atleast twice. That is a moment when you are forced to drop all the pressure and setting up you've done and waste DR's on enemies to actually get this single small channeled heal off. You basically have lost the game at that point.

So all in all, no. 20% heal with this cd and cast time is NOT overpowered in 3v3, 5v5 or RBG's.
It is overpowered in 1v1 and slightly in 2v2.
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90 Human Mage
7690
Precisely. Peeps overreact as if you are mass CCing and bursting at same time you evo and there is nothing they can do about it.

Please tell me how successful you can evocate vs KFC yo. Even if you could channel it while moving and casting other spells they would still stop it non stop hahahaha :D
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100 Night Elf Mage
19415
You know, Mr. Blue, I for one like how Invocation currently is on PTR.

The reason for this is that the current live version of the talent - when compared to Rune of Power or Incanter's Ward - is far too punishing in case something unexpected happens during raid encounters. Obviously Evocation has an extremely long cast time (for a raid environment) of > 5 seconds where you can absolutely not react to any movement related stuff without accepting a major DPS loss AND can not cast anything useful, and then you are getting double punishment when you really had to move by not being allowed to cast again for 10 seconds. And as if that wasn't bad enough, you have to repeat the 5-Second-Break-of-Fear every 40 seconds, which makes for a ridiculously high number of casts during some encounters. Third punishment.

Now take the other two spells, Rune's punishment would be a smaller DPS buff (which is understandable seeing how much easier it is to handle) and Ward's would be that you have to time it so that you receive a bit of damage once the CD is up (which is fairly easy in raids). Even though Invocation makes up for one punishment through its 25% buff (which is still surpassed by Ward's), you're still stuck in a situation worse than with any of the two alternative talents. Due to this I feel like being pushed towards Rune or Ward for many encounters, especially during heroic progress where you don't really want any distraction - like the ones Invocation provides - from what happens during the encounter itself.
Compared to this, the PTR version of the talent feels nice and comfortable to use and allows for a real choice, even though its damage buff has been nerfed, which I'm totally ok with as long as the rest of the changes remain as they are.

At this point I have to admit I honestly couldn't care less for the heal effect or any PvP based problem with it. For me, PvP is either a nuisance (I'm looking at you, forced Legendary BG quest) or at best a mini game like PokéWoW, and while I understand that people who are more interested in it want things to be as balanced as they can be, I don't want to see such great changes like the ones made to Invocation being scrapped due to a part of the game I do not play and I do not recognize as major content.
If you have to implement a change to make it less overpowered in PvP, then make this change only for PvP. Or move the heal part into some other spell, whatever you see fit. But for PvE, Invocation is good as it now is on PTR.
Edited by Mamizou on 08/02/2013 14:52 GMT
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90 Human Hunter
3910
You know, Mr. Blue, I for one like how Invocation currently is on PTR.

The reason for this is that the current live version of the talent - when compared to Rune of Power or Incanter's Ward - is far too punishing in case something unexpected happens during raid encounters. Obviously Evocation has an extremely long cast time (for a raid environment) of > 5 seconds where you can absolutely not react to any movement related stuff without accepting a major DPS loss AND can not cast anything useful, and then you are getting double punishment when you really had to move by not being allowed to cast again for 10 seconds. And as if that wasn't bad enough, you have to repeat the 5-Second-Break-of-Fear every 40 seconds, which makes for a ridiculously high number of casts during some encounters. Third punishment.

Now take the other two spells, Rune's punishment would be a smaller DPS buff (which is understandable seeing how much easier it is to handle) and Ward's would be that you have to time it so that you receive a bit of damage once the CD is up (which is fairly easy in raids). Even though Invocation makes up for one punishment through its 25% buff (which is still surpassed by Ward's), you're still stuck in a situation worse than with any of the two alternative talents. Due to this I feel like being pushed towards Rune or Ward for many encounters, especially during heroic progress where you don't really want any distraction from what happens during the encounter.
Compared to this, the PTR version of the spell feel nice and comfortable to use and allows for a real choice, even though its damage buff has been nerfed, which I'm totally ok with as long as the rest of the changes remain as they are.

At this point I have to admit I honestly couldn't care less for the heal effect or any PvP based problem with it. For me, PvP is either a nuisance (I'm looking at you, forced Legendary BG quest) or at best a mini game like PokéWoW, and while I understand that people who are more interested in it want things to be as balanced as they can be, I don't want to see such great changes like the ones made to Invocation being scrapped due to a part of the game I do not play and I do not recognize as major content.
If you have to implement a change to make it less overpowered in PvP, then make this change only for PvP. Or move the heal part into some other spell, whatever you see fit. But for PvE, Invocation is good as it now is on PTR.


Like,this whole thread is purely about the pvp implications of it.Not sure why bringing pve up...
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90 Human Mage
7690
Because we do PvE as well, and WoW is mainly like 99% PvE, PvP is 1% :)

So he has a very good point, can't make talents only for pvp and not with pve in consideration as well.

They already messed up giving fire mages scorch baseline, and arcane / frost no access for it in PvE.

Now this invocation from ptr will compensate for that, everyone happy :)
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90 Night Elf Rogue
7540
Might it possible to give the heal an internal CD of perhaps 25-30 sec, but let the mana regen part of it being able to be used as the way it is?

Sounds like a fix that wouldn't break PvE either
Edited by Sharei on 08/02/2013 15:03 GMT
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90 Human Mage
7690
No need to complicate stuff even more, is good as it is ;)
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90 Worgen Druid
9910
Mages are not healers. They should not have a spammable heal.

The fact this is even a topic for discussion serves as a neat demonstration of just how weird this game has become. The designers have no direction WHAT SO EVER.

Please don't let this go live... -.- For goodness' sake.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
7540
08/02/2013 15:05Posted by Ashami
No need to complicate stuff even more, is good as it is ;)


well clearly , since through this entire thread you have showed how biased you are.
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90 Human Warrior
11635
08/02/2013 15:05Posted by Ashami
is good as it is


Yeah, good for Mages. In other words, ridiculously inbalanced.

Anyways, if Mages feel this is fine for them, then I say give Warriors a Healing Touch with no CD, 2.6 sec. cast time that heals for 80K.

Sounds fair, mkay?
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90 Human Mage
7690
Don't you think the whole point of evo is to heal? If we don't spam spell steal we never go oom, so yeah, the change looks good :)
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90 Draenei Shaman
6105
And yet again the imbalanced part of this particular spell is in 1v1 and maybe, just maybe in 2v2.
I dare you to cast full evocation without CC'ing the whole 3v3 team at current state of arena. You will never have a breathing room enough to cast Evocation, even if it's a 3sec cast.
In a situation where this particular spell is in a good spot in 3v3 is when you are required to heal yourself atleast twice. That is a moment when you are forced to drop all the pressure and setting up you've done and waste DR's on enemies to actually get this single small channeled heal off. You basically have lost the game at that point.

So all in all, no. 20% heal with this cd and cast time is NOT overpowered in 3v3, 5v5 or RBG's.
It is overpowered in 1v1 and slightly in 2v2.

How is a DR wastes if it means you don't die?
Eagerly awaiting your response.
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2 Human Warrior
0
Will never go live.
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90 Draenei Shaman
6105
08/02/2013 15:12Posted by Ashami
Don't you think the whole point of evo is to heal? If we don't spam spell steal we never go oom, so yeah, the change looks good :)


Does that mean you have no use for multiple snares, slows, a absorb, a stun breaker, a stun and 2 immunities?
Because most casters would kill to have access to that kind of survivability.

It is simply not possible to be a good player and have to rely on all of the above AND a spammable heal to be viable.

Now tell me: Are you a good player?
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90 Human Mage
7690
What do you mean you don't die? Need clarification. Are you saying as in 1v1 duels? Who cares. 2v2? Imbalanced as hell.
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100 Human Mage
10585
And yet again the imbalanced part of this particular spell is in 1v1 and maybe, just maybe in 2v2.
I dare you to cast full evocation without CC'ing the whole 3v3 team at current state of arena. You will never have a breathing room enough to cast Evocation, even if it's a 3sec cast.
In a situation where this particular spell is in a good spot in 3v3 is when you are required to heal yourself atleast twice. That is a moment when you are forced to drop all the pressure and setting up you've done and waste DR's on enemies to actually get this single small channeled heal off. You basically have lost the game at that point.

So all in all, no. 20% heal with this cd and cast time is NOT overpowered in 3v3, 5v5 or RBG's.
It is overpowered in 1v1 and slightly in 2v2.

How is a DR wastes if it means you don't die?
Eagerly awaiting your response.


Situation where I can get the full Evocation against the most popular setup in the game; KFC:
Poly Hunter, nova hunters pet, Deep Warrior and CS Paladin and hope that he does not run to you to interrupt, because apparently Rebuke is not spell anymore.

Yup, there's Poly DR, nova DR, Stun DR and Silence DR to get a 80k heal off which will get instantly taken off in 1 global from a warrior. And if I waste important spells like Deep, CS and Poly and their respectful DR's so I can get a weak heal off, that means I can cannonfood for another 30sec to set up a heal like that. I actually need those DR's as a mage to get anything going on and get a kill.

Besides, it provides only a +15% dmg bonus which is half what Incanter's Ward provides.
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