Is WoW losing it's epicness?

(Locked)

90 Human Hunter
13715
Yes I agree the game has become a bit too easy for my liking aswell. Many players are happy with the state this game is in right now but also some, although maybe minority, do look for a challenge and in my opinion this would be an easy thing to fix, just make 2 different types of servers. Easier and harder ones.


I'd love that, sadly never going to happen.

Just recently got my mage to 90....
It's impossible for me to feel any kind of thrill, adventure or accomplishment, not even the slightest bit of entertainment I expect from a video game, when I can let a quest chain's big 1mio endboss mob just toddle up to me and chisel away my 300k+ HP at a staggering 10k DPS on a fragile, little thing wearing a dress, a class balanced around not being hit.
When you have to stand defenseless for 30sec for a three stories big monster to kill you it's just sad. It does not make me feel powerful, it makes me feel like I have used ome sort of cheat. I don't like using cheats.

For all intents and purposes at this point all nonpvp elements in this game except raiding and CM might aswell be really crappy movies, the ones where the main character is so blatantly overpowered and shallow it makes you cringe watching them.
And while raiding and CM do give proper challenges they aren't what I'd want from an MMORPG; I don't want to be met with 1337 achievements and super elite heroic thunderforged items and whatnot for defeating a boss in difficulty +2 selected in PlayerPortrait_Dropdown_Menu.
Toggling a bunch of options or completing content under conditions that are completely out of touch with the game world do not fix the impression of blatant impotence the bad guys leave everywhere else.
And for non-instances these options don't even exist.
It wouldn't be nearly as bad if at least bloody single player games weren't going down the same route...
Edited by Doremy on 06/02/2013 10:25 GMT
90 Blood Elf Priest
7830
05/02/2013 13:44Posted by Manimål
Don't play it then??

The amount of stupidity in a single sentence. Ugh.
90 Draenei Shaman
5480
The feeling of success after downing a boss that we have repeatedly wiped on is the only incenticve I need.
90 Human Death Knight
5385
Agree with Everyone, on the past wow reach a lot of players, now the number still decreasing then you will ask why?

Blizzard has taken their business road concentrating in Casual Gaming, and avoiding some solution in skill, etc etc etc.

Remember Blizzard, that you encounter your highest number, when you were on the highest difficulties of game, then when were Molten/Tbc Raid, now, you would concentrate in a business that is a cicle, you know because casual gamer can stop very easily to play, instead of a passionate gamer, that continue a lot.

I'm just talking cause i've always played wow since sett 2005, and i saw the progress of the Game, i think that blizzard has lost the original point of view tryng to concentrate in an other type of business.

Personally, i don't like the philosophy of concetrate the playing game, in to a casual gaming, i don't like cause all is very easy(sometimes, in somr LFR, i'm sleeping just for let you know and this is not only my opinion). As for the Ambientation about the Raid, about Dungeon about bg, Blizzard is saving some costs that World of Warcraft have, don't tell us that the new raid, or dungeon, are more expensive that Molten Core Raid, or Bwl, or Naxx, or AQ20 or an other Raid/dungeon of the TBC/WOTLK. The PVP system as it will be in the 5.2 is something that you can see that the game is changed, all for casual gaming.

Also if i don't like this phylophy is a different way to collect business, but as blizzard know is very hard to manage, cause the casual gamer, left very quickly, or can stop gaming in a little time, than old and passionate gamer.(or new and passionate).

The is no chance to increase again the profit with this way, the only chance is to increase their net revenue from maintain the masses playing(so they don't fall down.), as you know Blizzard has increase their revenue thanking to world of warcraft, and the shareholders.

Here went my knock of the discussion, for maintaning a game for casual gamer, blizzard need to implement more things than we actually have, example a lot of dungeon, or a lot of different battleground, different methods to make world pvp, and invest money in ambientation. But the cost are "high", and they are promoting some raid or things that make it easy and less expensive than the past.

This is why, the Tramsmog, this is why the removing the 2200 rating, this is why LFR, this is why easily Daily, this is why easily increasing profession and this is why easily choose talent and the specialization(as GW). This is why they remove arrow/or bullet from the hunter(specific), this why they remove the Lock stone, this is why they remove reagents to some spell.

Everything.

PS: My last thing is something related to next expansion of titan project, i think that blizzard is start to concentrating to that one, and promoted pandaria as a something that can introduce less cost, in the new project.

Sorry to everyone for my bad english,

Zairne
90 Tauren Druid
9820
In the spirit of maintaing a good debate, whi I do enjoy, here is an attempt to elaborate a little on why I don't agree with most of the assertions of the type that his thread is based on.

*****WALL OF TEXT ALERT*****

Blizzard have let things go downhill !
-------------------------------------------

Have they really though? Wow is a pure entertainment product. It's not like a mortgage or a utility bill, none of us are under any obligation to play it. Blizzard are a gaming company. Like any company they want to make money, but this doesn't mean that they are evil. At the moment Wow is the most popular MMO by a landslide, presumably because in the main, those who subscribe do so because they enjoy it. From a business perspective, as a supplier of an entertainment product, it is complete folly to do anything other than try and keep your players happy.

However, it is fairly obvious to say that not everybody wants the same things in a game, and as such it is is impossible to please everybody. Therefore they try to please the majority. This may not be what you want if you're part of the minority, but it's really the only sensible way. What you can do in this situation to try and keep the minority happy is give people choices. Different things, some hard, some easy. Blizzard does this more than any other MMO by a long shot. What they're never going to do however (at least I hope not) is return to a situation where the majority are funding content that only the minority have access to.

Finally in this regard, there are often posts proclaiming that Blizzard hate their players and only care about money, and that they are some tyrannical money sponge. A few times I've even seen their name written using dollar signs, ie: Bli$$ard. Just want to say, this is an astonishingly naive viewpoint. If you believe that Sony, NCSoft, Turbine, Trion etc would have done anything differently if they'd been the ones that had managed to come up with the MMO to outshine all others in terms of popularity then you're very wrong. All companies want to make money, but in this market they do that by giving their customers what they want. Nobody forces us to play.

Vanilla was harder / more epic.
-------------------------------------

Probably the most subjective area. I honestly think though that most of the reason that it might have felt more epic was that it was new. I started at launch, having come from other older MMO's like EQ, SWG and AC. Even back in vanilla days the reason WOW was so good is that it was slick and streamlined by MMO standards. You could jump straight in and have fun there were plent of quests, combat was sharp and responsive. My first thought after only a few hours play was how accessible and fun it was compared to the MMO's I had played before.

None of this stuff has gone away, it's just that we take it for granted now. Many MMO's since have tried to ride Wow's coattails by copying the sysetm and then making a few changes, and none of them have come close. Blizzard have continued to add more and more content and features over the years. Not everyone wants to do all of it but never have players had such a broad choice of activities in an MMO as they do now in Wow.

The mechanics of MMO questing are somewhat limited due to the fact that MMO's are a persistent world shared by thousands, and as such players actions cannot really make permanent changes based on the actions of just themselves. I think thats why some people feel that questing itself has not evolved since vanilla. It's true that there is still a lot of killng X beasties and collecting Y beastie entrails, but enhancements such as vehicles, phasing and instancing have made these more fun in many cases.

There were a lot more group quests in Vanilla. Some people think that the fact that these don't really exist anymore has detracted from the social experience. Fair point in a way, but it was also a frustration at times. When I levelled my first main in Classic I played most of the time with 2 RL friends and we quested in a group. As a Warrior, Priest and Mage pretty much all of the group quests were as easy as solo quests are now. We had a blast. What was a pain though was at those times when I was playing on my own on an alt. A group quest comes up in a quest chain and there's nobody answering the call in chat. It was either hang around and wait grinding mobs, or break the chain and go quests somewhere else.

I can concede that sometimes I miss the group quests while levelling, but overall the system now caters better for everyone. It doesn't force grouping but it doesnt discourage it either. MOP has already introduced certain mobs who's health scale depending on the number of attackers, perhaps this idea could be expanded upon for the purpose of scalable quests that could be tackled as a group for more xp / gold etc or solo for those that prefer it that way.

Raiding
----------

Short topic this one. Raiding used to be about managing to get 40 people together in a strict ratio of classes, all of which had spent hours grinding the right buffs and resist gear etc. Raid bosses were actually pretty simple in terms of mechanics, just tightly tuned to require certain numbers and compositions to be beatable. So in short it was really only accessible to those who had a lot of time to commit to it.

These days raids are far more interesting and complex in terms of mechanics and tactics, and the difficulty is based around this rather than numbers. Of course there is still a general level of gear and class balance required but it is far less restrictive. There are also 3 difficulty levels to cater for different types of players.

The only argument I can see for how clasic raiding was better was from those that wanted it to stay exclusive.

Recognition of veterans / hardcore players
-------------------------------------------------

It's clear that quite a lot of people feel that they deserve recognition for the fact that they've either been a WOW player for a long time, or that they have cleared the hardest content. They dont like it when people who are newer or not as progressed can get gear that is epic and looks like theirs.

Even though their gear has higher ilvl and / or they have Feats of strength to show their achievements, this isnt enough for them.

I really don't mean any offence by this, but even if you are one of these folk, you're not special any more. That era where MMO gaming was a small gaming clique where you could impress newbies with your shiny epics has all but passed. Most people just want to have fun and do what they want to in game, and they don't care when you started or how many heroic bosses you've killed. For anyone who does want to be able to follow the progress of the veterans, they can look at achievements and be wowed by Feats of strenght, but if you need more than that, then I'm sorry but its just vanity, and the gamer developers role is to proide entertainment to all of us, not stroke your ego.
58 Goblin Death Knight
8750
What it really boils down to in a lot of cases is people have been playing the game a long time, and it was better for them in the past, and now they're only really playing out of habit, and they want the "glory days" back.

The fact is, their memories for the most part of those days are not factual. They had a lot more fun then, yes, but a lot of it was to do with how new it was, how new they were, how big and unique the world was.

Look at jobs. The first day on a new job is exciting. You meet new people, you make new friends, you get tasked with important things. It's great, it's something new in your life. Now fast forward 7 years later. Lots of their friends have left, the task is the same boring task you've done for 7 years. There is no excitement. Thats the problem people have with WoW.

You can never get "that feeling" back. You cannot go to Deadmines for the first time, see your first murloc, get your first epic. They could make all the changes you ask for, and I would wager almost 100% of the people who make threads like this wouldn't be happy.

WoW has moved on, as does life. 7 years is a long time.

Do you really believe these threads haven't existed as long as the game itself? People complained even 6 months in to WoW that the time had come that they had tired of the game.
90 Draenei Shaman
6465
For the hardcore players I would like to see heroic-only encounters such as Sinestra each tier of raiding. Wouldn't that be a good idea?
90 Human Priest
0
06/02/2013 14:58Posted by Draeneifury
For the hardcore players I would like to see heroic-only encounters such as Sinestra each tier of raiding. Wouldn't that be a good idea?


There is one in the next patch I believe. I don't think anyone has a problem with such an idea. The main issue with this thread is that the ones that are complaining, are not the ones that are going to be killing such a boss.

I'm not sure exactly what it is they want, but it isn't more or harder raid content. They seem more about removing content that is easier than heroic/normal raids rather than adding something else for people that are not them to do.
Edited by Vickii on 06/02/2013 15:08 GMT
90 Worgen Mage
9785
06/02/2013 15:07Posted by Vickii
For the hardcore players I would like to see heroic-only encounters such as Sinestra each tier of raiding. Wouldn't that be a good idea?


There is one in the next patch I believe. I don't think anyone has a problem with such an idea. The main issue with this thread is that the ones that are complaining, are not the ones that are going to be killing such a boss.

I'm not sure exactly what it is they want, but it isn't more or harder raid content. They seem more about removing content that is easier than heroic/normal raids rather than adding something else for people that are not them to do.


I find it funny(sad really) that certain people, a couple of them in this thread, blatantly disregards what's being said. Then they create their own assumptions and write an answer to counter what they have made up in their minds.
Like Vickii here, again she assumes something out of the blue and runs with it as if she knows the inside of peoples minds, their skills, their motivations etc.
I ask of you Vickii, can you pls stop acting like you know my thoughts and feelings? Can you stop derailing the thread constantly with assumptions and claims, because I think many others have been able to grasp the actual gripe. Yes, many don't agree, but at least they argue against what's being said and not some imaginative construction geeez!

Take a look at Coriandras post for example. He clearly disagrees with us, but he at least sticks with whats being said and discusses from that. And I appreciate that a lot!

Not some "I assume I'm better than you" or "I don't understand what they want" or "They obviously will never do them" and that kind of crap. This ofc on top of false claims, assumptions and rude tone towards others.

A big thx to the people discussing in this thread in a civil and friendly tone.
90 Worgen Mage
9785
06/02/2013 08:20Posted by Coriandra
I'm just curious, why is it bad for you guys -who claim you don't care- that we who are not content with the game, are voicing our concerns?


I think a lot of it is in the way that the argument is presented, and the wording of a lot of the responses.

For example, You called the the thread 'Dumbed down for the masses'. Staright away this is antagonistic, because it implies that the section of the player base that doesn't share your view are in some way dumb. Having read through more of the thread it seems like the point you are trying to make is somewhat different, so why give the thread such a provocative title ?. Why not something like ' Did Vanilla feel more epic ?' That sort of title invites debate rather than immeditely insulting those that don't share your view.

This is propagated by the appearance of other protagonists in the thread who have mainly turned it into into a slanging match now. Phrases like 'lowest common denominator' are thrown around, further implying that players who disagree with the assertions made by this side of the camp are some kind of scum.

It's largely derailed into a few people going back and forth insulting each other and arguing semantics now, which is a shame


I do regret the title of the thread, honestly. Tbh it was my first post on the forums(I think) and I wasn't conscious about what sort of replies it would get. I did however try to rephrase myself and since then tried to get the discussion away from the negative towards the constructive.

On the other hand I find it curious that people take offense to me calling the game dumbed down, I'm not saying the players are dumb. I should have used the word simplified maybe?
Sama same, but different. But not really, I see now the negative connotations it carries.

Again, English isn't my first language, so even though the grammar might be correct I may not always nail it exactly how I want it and get the message across. I am sorry for that.
Based on what some of you have commented and what I saw yesterday both here on the forums and on Twitter, I'm just curious...

Why do you feel the game has been dumbed down when, in fact, heroic raid bosses (for example) are increasingly harder? You've probably seen even players arguing that this tier in Normal feels harder than it should as well.

I mean, I totally understand you feel the game is easier than before, but consider three things:
-If you're a dedicated player, your skill will improve at some point, and (most likely) at early stages your improvement will be more dramatic, so the room to make the game harder without being outright silly (numerically or mechanically) gets smaller (which should help put in perspective the amazing work developers do when coming up with new boss fight mechanics and concepts).

-Heroic raiding content is increasingly more difficult (just compare Heroic Ragnaros to Heroic Sha of Fear and to Kil'jaeden, both mechanics wise and leeway to meet enrage timers, etc)

-Most of the things you mention as being dumbed down don't really seem to target you. But rather a different segment of players that might still be getting the hang of the game or don't want/can't devote as much of their time into the game as they would like.

Considering all this, how does it affect you in a negative way (assuming that you are at the high-end spectrum) that the game is more accessible or there are more things to do for players that are not you especifically?
90 Pandaren Monk
10965
Let me ask you Snoopworg, what would you change then to bring back the 'epicness' of WoW, seeing as merely saying "Blizz, you should focus on bringing back prestige" is rather easy. How would they do that?

I like to see if you can come up with an answer that both preserves stuff casuals like, aswell as being able to bring back what you feel the game needs. As from what I see, your thread basicly had the standard "I don't like it so change" message behind it and mostly generalized statements that shouldn't have been, as there is no logical reason to state so.

I mean, for myself:
This is now slowly getting trivialized with pokemon, cute pandas, transmogs, LFR, daily rep gear better than raid gear etc etc.


I like Pandas, aswell as transmogs and LFR. They're a big incentive for me to play this game. Why would they be a bad thing in such a case, if people like it? Even if it's generic, if it's fun for people I wouldn't see a lot of wrong in it, as you do not have to roll a panda, or transmog, or run LFR. It's a choice.

If the game loses it's focus on skills and perseverance

I see you haven't killed eveyr heroic Pandaria raidboss yet. Why? No skill? Cause if you had the skill, you'd have done it by now, wouldn't you?

Imo, the game hasn't been dumbed down, it still requires skill, aswell as dedication. I haven't got the best of either, so I know I'll likely won't get a HC kill in Pandaria. Big deal, I enjoy the game in LFR and Normals nontheless. It's just that compared to Classic WoW, it requires less effort to actually make a group and keep it together (Finding 40 man for Onyxia, buff up and then have 6 leavers. Nightmares!) The level of skill required is more or less the same I believe.
90 Human Paladin
9345
06/02/2013 16:45Posted by Draztal
Considering all this, how does it affect you in a negative way (assuming that you are at the high-end spectrum) that the game is more accessible or there are more things to do for players that are not you especifically?


It's impossible to make a raiding guild if most players are content with LFR. They choose LFR simply because it's easier and because guild raiding isn't worth the extra effort.

That's how it affects us. There need to be more incentives to guild raid without making "casuals" feel forced to do normal raids.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16945
06/02/2013 16:45Posted by Draztal
Why do you feel the game has been dumbed down when, in fact, heroic raid bosses (for example) are increasingly harder? You've probably seen even players arguing that this tier in Normal feels harder than it should as well.


The game is harder. The gap between LFR and normal mode is too great. Nerf normal modes. Don't release them as hard as you have for t14. Make heroic raids just as hard. A lot of people will be satisfied with clearing the normal modes. Failing to do this is a downer.
Edited by Ascanius on 06/02/2013 17:02 GMT
58 Goblin Death Knight
8750
06/02/2013 16:59Posted by Garían
Considering all this, how does it affect you in a negative way (assuming that you are at the high-end spectrum) that the game is more accessible or there are more things to do for players that are not you especifically?


It's impossible to make a raiding guild if most players are content with LFR. They choose LFR simply because it's easier and because guild raiding isn't worth the extra effort.

That's how it affects us. There need to be more incentives to guild raid without making "casuals" feel forced to do normal raids.


Clearly not impossible. Harder perhaps, but nowhere near impossible. Go read the guild recruitment forums, plenty of people are raiding.
58 Goblin Death Knight
8750
05/02/2013 12:25Posted by Snoopworg
I have never been one of the elite players
I cleared *EVERY* instance. Yes you can quote me on this; *EVERY* -MC, BWL, ONY, Naxx, AQ40/20


You cleared Naxx40 at level 60 without being an elite player? Really? o.O
90 Draenei Shaman
15625
OP, why you are crying game is casual when you are casual as well?
90 Dwarf Priest
6970
The op is only saying what he's saying because he cares, but you are right. Draztal your name just made the penny drop for me. how long have you worked for blizzard? no wonder the lootcouncil were giving your alts loot before more casual but 1 character players in the guild. drazi was an alt of yours long ago if i remember right, an arms warrior that still couldnt beat us rogues in dps :P? or was i playing a mage at the time i cant remember.

the game now caters to a wider audience and that can only be a good thing. the talent changes were needed for balancing and lets less hardcore players play a wider range of characters a lot easier (a great thing imo) but it does take some of the skill out of the game and that isnt good, it's all a tradeoff. the exlusitivety could still be there and that may need working on for the top teir of players.

hi snoop:)
Edited by Dinafem on 06/02/2013 17:51 GMT
90 Human Warrior
7140
blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah


More blah blah bla

blah blah


This blah blah, which i am taking out of context to try to prove my point, is complete blah blah blah

blah blah blah


And this blah blah blah, again taken out of context to try to prove my point, means that blah blah blah is much more blah than blah blah. Blizz only in it for the blah blah, not the blah blah blah blah

You guys make me chuckle, you're not even talking AT each other you're talking PAST each other. Someone could could be conceding their point and admitting you were right and you'd still be dissecting their post, line by line, in an attempt to prove them wrong

Love to you all :-)
90 Dwarf Priest
6970
06/02/2013 17:09Posted by Deadgob
I have never been one of the elite players
I cleared *EVERY* instance. Yes you can quote me on this; *EVERY* -MC, BWL, ONY, Naxx, AQ40/20


You cleared Naxx40 at level 60 without being an elite player? Really? o.O


if thats NK|snoop he always undervalues himself.
This thread is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]