Suggestion: Put offensive cooldowns on global cooldown

90 Night Elf Druid
7635
07/02/2013 14:08Posted by Allora
warrior damage is getting buffed, I think it could become competitive to dk damage in next patch.


We'll see, but i highly doubt it..

07/02/2013 14:08Posted by Allora
In 2 consecutive lines you just complained about how absurd burst from 2 globals is and then stated people aren't getting globaled. I guess you should make up your mind.


Having hard time reading or understanding? I said that its easier to react to for example warriors burst than it is to dks, cause u can see when he pops his cds..

07/02/2013 14:08Posted by Allora
I honestly doubt you get almost globaled by 2 obliterates without cds up


Didnt say that at any point..

07/02/2013 14:08Posted by Allora
why are you turning this thing into a "DK op" thread? Would you be happier if I posted it on my priest or druid or mage or lock? I honestly don't get it...


Im not.. I just baffled how u cant see how bias this make u seem posting on a dk about cd stacking (which u clearly ment mainly warriors and into some extent ferals), it clearly favors some classes over other..

07/02/2013 14:08Posted by Allora
you haven't managed to bring any positive input in 3 replies as to why you consider swifty macro gameplay fun, rewarding, interesting.


I didnt say they are fun or interesting, i just dont think u can make these kind of drastic changes at this point, it would only make things worse..
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90 Human Death Knight
9285
07/02/2013 16:52Posted by Dradino
Im not.. I just baffled how u cant see how bias this make u seem posting on a dk about cd stacking (which u clearly ment mainly warriors and into some extent ferals), it clearly favors some classes over other..


Allright, so again, would you feel better if I posted from my druid? I wonder how that would change things...
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Community
I’m just going jump in here and add some food for thought :)

07/02/2013 13:14Posted by Taelon
But personally I would find it annoying when there on global cooldown, especially with raiding. Makes them feel...........Clunky :P
This is quite true, having these types of abilities on the global cooldown would probably make them feel clunky, on top of that it can waste part of the time that they are active in order to begin utilising them. Also remember that these "Swifty" macros are an all or nothing venture, they are not a guaranteed "I-win" button.

When a player pops all of their cooldowns in one big hit, they are taking the risk of simply wasting them because their opponents go on the defensive. The choice to use a cooldown is exactly that, a choice, and it can backfire. When it backfires, the player using the cooldowns feel they should be compensated because their damage is now lower and they feel their cooldowns need to be up again to be useful. When it works however, the person that's on the other end feels it’s completely unfair, even if they are able to survive it at other times through their own reactions and defensive abilities.

That chance and randomness in fighting people with different skill levels to counter and react to the strategies of another is part of what makes PvP more engaging and exciting. If it were simply about looking at someone’s output versus another person’s output and declaring a winner on potential damage done, then it would make the gameplay stale because you would always be able to know the winner beforehand.
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90 Worgen Druid
9910
07/02/2013 18:41Posted by Nakatoir
This is quite true, having these types of abilities on the global cooldown would probably make them feel clunky, on top of that it can waste part of the time that they are active in order to begin utilising them. Also remember that these "Swifty" macros are an all or nothing venture, they are not a guaranteed "I-win" button.


But that's the point! Sometimes convenience just isn't that fun. Does your StarCraft 2 team also consider making the Phoenix lift ability autocast and cost 0 energy?

Eherm; If cooldowns scale multiplicatively off each other, and they do, then it should be completely obvious that some mechanic has to make sure they're not always worth popping all at the same time. The more you pop, the less you get out of each one beacuse you have to wait - but the more they scale off of each other i.e. you give yourself a smaller window but higher burst inside of it.

Your quote largely addresses PvP, which is of course no surprise considering where we are, but think about the PvE implications of not putting them on the GCD. Swifty one-shot macros are rampant in PvE, too - except they don't actually 1-shot the boss. The thing is, even if you don't 1-shot, this design makes it higher overall DPS.

When a player pops all of their cooldowns in one big hit, they are taking the risk of simply wasting them because their opponents go on the defensive. The choice to use a cooldown is exactly that, a choice, and it can backfire. When it backfires, the player using the cooldowns feel they should be compensated because their damage is now lower and they feel their cooldowns need to be up again to be useful. When it works however, the person that's on the other end feels it’s completely unfair, even if they are able to survive it at other times through their own reactions and defensive abilities.


Okay, so this is the fundamental problem I have with amassing huge amounts of cooldowns off the GCD. We concede, do we not, that the game has a lot of CC and that you can lock people into stuns relatively easily. Then, add to that that it simply gives more DPS, not just more burst, to stack them all at the same time. Now, pepper this problem with a good old dose "not enough buttons on the bloody keyboard" (feral has 55 abilities! :D ), and it begins to dawn on you just how bad this design is.

It's an all or nothing game. It's a 1-trick pony.
It feels terrible for both parties if it fails:
Attacker: Omfg I popped everything and it did **** all!
Defender: Omfg the damage is just crazy stupid!
If it succeeds:
Attacker: Hahahahha this is ridiculous lawl.
Defender: Ok this needs to be nerfed...

The reaction is ALWAYS negative whenever I hear about this stuff. But the problems it causes go far deeper. People need to be able to realistically have a shot at surviving this, so we have to add even more cooldowns. We start adding a crapton of defensive cooldowns and massive healthpools to the game and now, outside of cooldowns, everyone's damage feels completely worthless. Feeling worthless for 3 minutes so you can shine for 20 seconds to do maximum overall damage just feels really bad.

07/02/2013 18:41Posted by Nakatoir
That chance and randomness in fighting people with different skill levels to counter and react to the strategies of another is part of what makes PvP more engaging and exciting.


Let me know when you acquire the reaction time "instant".

This is exactly why we're bloody proposing putting it on the GCD. It actually gives us time to react, thereby making PvP more exciting.
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1 Night Elf Warrior
0
I’m just going jump in here and add some food for thought :)

07/02/2013 13:14Posted by Taelon
But personally I would find it annoying when there on global cooldown, especially with raiding. Makes them feel...........Clunky :P
This is quite true, having these types of abilities on the global cooldown would probably make them feel clunky, on top of that it can waste part of the time that they are active in order to begin utilising them. Also remember that these "Swifty" macros are an all or nothing venture, they are not a guaranteed "I-win" button.


Very simple fix for them: just make them lock-out each other like some of the trinkets do. Let's say you have 3 cooldown abilities which last 5 seconds each. When you use 1, the other 2 are locked out for 5 seconds. When you use the 2nd, the 3rd is locked out for another 5 seconds (while the 1st is merrily cooling down). Then you are forced to chain them, leading to much lower burst. And they can still be off the GCD, so pose no problem of "wasted time" of not using abilities.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7635
07/02/2013 18:16Posted by Allora
Allright, so again, would you feel better if I posted from my druid? I wonder how that would change things...


Please do, i would love to see which1 is your main and are u feral or a healer..
Edited by Dradino on 07/02/2013 19:21 GMT
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
9290
I dont think there is an easy way to nerf all the offensive cooldowns together in a balanced way. To begin with, like many people said different classes rely on cooldowns very differently. Frost dk for exaple has pretty weak offensive cooldown and pretty high sustained damage. Mages dont have proper offensive cooldowns like other classes and can burst almost whenever trinket or deep freeze is up. Then there are classes that do poor damage outside of cooldowns and stack them all for a small window to kill someone.

The only real way to balance it to global cooldowns is when everyone has the same amount of cooldowns and they are equally strong. And that will never happen. Better focus balancing them class by class.
Edited by Jäämíes on 07/02/2013 19:21 GMT
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90 Tauren Druid
12450
I think that the OP idea, while toning down the burst in pvp, would also make it slower. We don't need slower pvp, we need longer lasting pvp.

If I may add my opinion, I think that cooldowns should remain the same in number with a big change: Shorten their duration and their cooldown time. Remember Cold Blood? It was a 3 min CD that made you next ability crit. That's the type of cooldowns needed in pvp.

Popping a 3 min CD that increases your damage by 20% for 30 seconds, doesn't help. It would be better if it had a 1,5 min CD, and increased your damage by 30% for 5 seconds or something like this.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
13540
oh lord no, I thought the BM hunter was bad...
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07/02/2013 18:41Posted by Nakatoir
This is quite true, having these types of abilities on the global cooldown would probably make them feel clunky, on top of that it can waste part of the time that they are active in order to begin utilising them.


incarnation is on globalcooldown... thats fair?
Edited by Âve on 07/02/2013 19:54 GMT
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90 Undead Monk
12140
This is quite true, having these types of abilities on the global cooldown would probably make them feel clunky, on top of that it can waste part of the time that they are active in order to begin utilising them. Also remember that these "Swifty" macros are an all or nothing venture, they are not a guaranteed "I-win" button.

When a player pops all of their cooldowns in one big hit, they are taking the risk of simply wasting them because their opponents go on the defensive. The choice to use a cooldown is exactly that, a choice, and it can backfire. When it backfires, the player using the cooldowns feel they should be compensated because their damage is now lower and they feel their cooldowns need to be up again to be useful. When it works however, the person that's on the other end feels it’s completely unfair, even if they are able to survive it at other times through their own reactions and defensive abilities.

That chance and randomness in fighting people with different skill levels to counter and react to the strategies of another is part of what makes PvP more engaging and exciting. If it were simply about looking at someone’s output versus another person’s output and declaring a winner on potential damage done, then it would make the gameplay stale because you would always be able to know the winner beforehand.

#23
51 minutes ago


wheres the reason to not put them on GCD? Heal cds are on gcd too ( tree form).
It just sucks that you cant react to cd stacking because you die in 1-2 globals. If you put a gcd on them you have time to react and to active your def cds (which too require a GCD [not all but a few])
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90 Human Hunter
3910
I dont think there is an easy way to nerf all the offensive cooldowns together in a balanced way. To begin with, like many people said different classes rely on cooldowns very differently. Frost dk for exaple has pretty weak offensive cooldown and pretty high sustained damage. Mages dont have proper offensive cooldowns like other classes and can burst almost whenever trinket or deep freeze is up. Then there are classes that do poor damage outside of cooldowns and stack them all for a small window to kill someone.

The only real way to balance it to global cooldowns is when everyone has the same amount of cooldowns and they are equally strong. And that will never happen. Better focus balancing them class by class.


This,is what i was saying,Allora.

And about the fact it is easy to pop all cds on a stunned target ,yes,it is.
However,let me make an example.
While a warrior can reck on someone every 5 minutes,a mage can deep every 30(i *may* give you the 1 minute cd for the orb,still it's more often available).

If your change would go through,classes that are reliant on lenghty cds to do significant damage would crumble in the face of those who don't.
Because really,i don't believe you can seriously deny that,in a system where to use cds you need such a build-up time,even braindeads could counter those macros.

About your last point,that's invalid.Monks have 1 offensive cd's(2 with Xuen) along with the trinket,while warriors have several,and NO warrior would use a 3 min cd w/o anything else(he may try to fool people by using the trinket,at most).

You can't make changes across the board w/o considering how every class would work with them.
I'm in favor of reducing the reliance of certain classes on cds,but that change would just make pvp even less balanced.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
6640
Putting them on global to prevent CD stacking would be very very cheap solution.

Remove some CDs, merge them = best way
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90 Draenei Shaman
12860
07/02/2013 18:41Posted by Nakatoir
This is quite true, having these types of abilities on the global cooldown would probably make them feel clunky, on top of that it can waste part of the time that they are active in order to begin utilising them. Also remember that these "Swifty" macros are an all or nothing venture, they are not a guaranteed "I-win" button.


No, but they are a chance that every team takes, it doesnt promote a smart use of your cooldowns to use them all at once while the healer is in a 7 second cd.
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90 Night Elf Druid
14350
07/02/2013 18:41Posted by Nakatoir
This is quite true, having these types of abilities on the global cooldown would probably make them feel clunky, on top of that it can waste part of the time that they are active in order to begin utilising them.


Incarnation would have a word with you.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7635
07/02/2013 13:14Posted by Taelon
Nice post. But personally I would find it annoying when there on global cooldown, especially with raiding. Makes them feel...........Clunky :P


Good idea to whip out the PVE card, they cant touch it if it affects PVE in slightest bit..
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90 Human Death Knight
11610
07/02/2013 18:41Posted by Nakatoir
Also remember that these "Swifty" macros are an all or nothing venture, they are not a guaranteed "I-win" button.


This is hilarious. Under certain circumstances the player will die regardless, unless they have some sort of foreseeing inhuman perk. This can happen almost any time, you could be in a good position and will die when they pop everything, sometimes even defenses don't stop the tremendous damage incoming. How would you feel if you was outplaying a team and out of the blue a class just pops everything and cheaply caught a kill, placing you into a major disadvantage where there is next to no recovery?
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90 Gnome Warlock
15890
Funny how only last week I was thinking, while on my moonkin and furiously spamming whatever the cooldown is called, I wished sorely it was off the GCD because it IS terribly clunky. ;)

Cooldownstacking... Honestly, if every cooldown would become GCD bound, I'd just turn my macros in a /castsequence instead and cry my eyes out.

Though Nakatoir hits the nail on its head by suggesting it can be an "I-Win" button (because sometimes, even your best-timed defenses will feel like it made no difference whatsoever, dead is still dead ;) ), this is more an issue with burst and the power of certain cooldowns, especially combined, than with some cooldowns being off the GCD. You want to keep a certain fluidity to the game, a certain fast-paced feeling, not stare at when your GCDs will come off.

A solution I'd personally prefer would be weaker cooldowns, on a shorter cooldown (also, I love the warlock tier4 bonus - and I now hate going to any class that has cooldowns longer than 2 minutes (note: moonkin)). I remember how much I hated fire mages for how Combustion worked, and its pretty long cooldown. Now that it's actually less determining for your dps AND the cooldown has been substantially reduced, I'm tempted to give it another shot. I suppose it'd make PvP less of a dead-or-alive thing, too, which is how I feel most of the time when I do PvP on my PvP toons.
Edited by Séc on 08/02/2013 03:07 GMT
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90 Gnome Warlock
15890
Nice post. But personally I would find it annoying when there on global cooldown, especially with raiding. Makes them feel...........Clunky :P


Good idea to whip out the PVE card, they cant touch it if it affects PVE in slightest bit..


That's a really ignorant thing to say. I'm a PvE'er, obviously, but that doesn't mean I want PvP to suffer for it - nor should you wish PvE to suffer for PvP. :/ We can all think together and come up with solutions that work for everyone. This is really the issue with PvP topics, the hate and the pointless finger pointing and the "lol pve" or the "you're not 3k rated so shut it". It's super tedious to go through so many pointless posts, have you considered this is why blues don't like to come in your topics or discuss with you?
Edited by Séc on 08/02/2013 03:12 GMT
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