Let's get this game back to what it once was [PvP]

32 Tauren Druid
110
- Make casters actually have to cast again. The current state of the so-called "casters" is completely retarded. They're basicly Melee DPS but from Ranged. It's just stupid.

EDIT - I'm not saying that casters should be forced to cast with the ridiculous amount of CC there is in-game. Get rid of the ridiculous amounts of gap closers and interrupts some classes have and this will be solved.

EDIT - Why are clothies so incredibly tanky nowadays? What happened to clothies having weaknesses against Melee DPS because they didn't have that much armor (Don't forget that ARP existed as well)? Seeing a Mage and a Warlock being tankier than a Retribution Paladin really makes me want to mash my face against my keyboard.

- Strip classes off their CC. Some classes should not be able to CC at all. Warriors did perfectly fine throughout Vanilla, TBC and WotLK (bar S5) without any form of stun, same with many other classes that lacked CC. Rogues and Paladins were the only classes that had a form of stun and it should remain like that.

EDIT - I played <snip> Vanilla and tried out some PvP on my Rogue, and oh god it sure was fun! It felt so unreal being able to actually control my character almost all the time, but oh it was enjoyable! Might be ironic cause I was on a Rogue, but to be honest I didn't have so much CC on it as I do now. Cheap Shot and Kidney, and that was it. I am not saying that PvP in Vanilla was perfect, but the CC system certainly was. You had to actually set up your CC in difference to now.

- Make Blue PvP gear (Not the crappy Contender's set, but stuff as Dreadful) completely craftable. I'm getting sick of losing games against opponents I know I can win against just because they bought a RBG boost. World of Warcraft being a MMO (jk LFR) doesn't justify the huge gear gap this game currently has.

- Bring back CLASS UNIQUENESS! Every class has everything now. It's just plain boring. You might aswell remove classes because they are all copies of each other. Why did Paladins get an interrupt AND an AoE blind? What do Monks lack that no other Melee has? Why did Rogues and Mages get a heal?

I hope you can see the logic here. There's absolutely no variation in this game at the moment what so ever. It all started with dotcleaverogue-clysm, when some genius at Blizzard thought that giving every class everything will sort out the balance problems. Instead they just dumbened down the game in all aspects, taking all the fun out of it.

I miss stance dancing on my Warrior. Even though a very viable tactic for my opponents was to train me, it was my Class weakness. I did very good damage, while not being very mobile I was still a chopping machine. In the worst cases I'd use Enraged Regeneration (Which was introduced somewhere around TBC, was highly asked for by Warriors and it actually helped them to stay alive). I was very weak against Mages and casters in general, but very strong against Melee DPS. A rogue couldn't even come close to me unless he was very good. (Not trying to brag, but you get my point).

I miss swapping around Auras on my Paladin. Even though Retribution sucked dick throughout Vanilla and TBC, I actually had quite some fun with it in PvP. When I faced Fire Mages/Warlocks I would pop on my Fire Resistance aura, Seal of the Martyr and blow them up in a few hits with Stormherald (A mace that had a chance to stun for 3 seconds while doing incredibly good damage, let's hope Blizzard won't introduce anything like this ever again. Although it didn't feel really good that the only reason people wanted me in raids was my Auras, at least I had something that no one else had. My class was unique.

There's probably tons of other stuff I could write, but I just don't feel like I will even be heard. I wrote down the most important things hoping that someone might actually read it. If you have anything to add, feel free to do so.

I'm best feral EU btw xoxo

Removing Code of Conduct violation ~ Nakatoir
Edited by Nakatoir on 19/02/2013 10:36 GMT
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81 Orc Hunter
1215
Been wanting this since cata arrived..

There's too much CC, instants, selfhealing etc.

Gibe classes uniqueness again.. It's more enjoyable that way.
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90 Human Paladin
6145
But that way PvE could actually be affected in just the slightest way - and we all know that Blizz would never do ANYTHING pvp reliant if theres just the slightest con for pve.

Like.... if classes become more unique again... you couldnt faceroll 10s raids with 10 druids anymore - you would actually have to look at your setup again. And this would be unjustifiable.
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90 Undead Rogue
12410
Very much agree with everything. I really hope Blizzard takes a look at this.
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90 Undead Warlock
5820
To make casters stop using instants you need to remove 80% of the interrupts currently in the game, which every class seems to have. And blizzard would never do such a thing because 'it would make players relearn their class halfway through an expansion'.
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32 Tauren Druid
110
But that way PvE could actually be affected in just the slightest way - and we all know that Blizz would never do ANYTHING pvp reliant if theres just the slightest con for pve.

Like.... if classes become more unique again... you couldnt faceroll 10s raids with 10 druids anymore - you would actually have to look at your setup again. And this would be unjustifiable.
Stuff like CC could be tweaked to the maximum without having any effect on PvE. PvE is so faceroll nowadays, I can't remember the last time I needed to sheep/sap something..

12/02/2013 11:10Posted by Midds
To make casters stop using instants you need to remove 80% of the interrupts currently in the game, which every class seems to have. And blizzard would never do such a thing because 'it would make players relearn their class halfway through an expansion'.
Yeah, this is exactly what I suggested.

At least they're aware of it, next expansion will fix it mejt >_>
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Community
12/02/2013 07:56Posted by Bestferalxo
- Strip classes off their CC. Some classes should not be able to CC at all. Warriors did perfectly fine throughout Vanilla, TBC and WotLK (bar S5) without any form of stun, same with many other classes that lacked CC. Rogues and Paladins were the only classes that had a form of stun and it should remain like that.
Warriors had mace stun in BC, Mages had Deep Freeze in WotLK and Impact stun in both WotLK and BC, Druids had both Bash and Pounce, even hunters had a form of stun in BC. Many more classes than just rogues and Paladins had a form of stun.

Stating that you feel some classes should not be able to CC because that is how it was back in the old days is not an appropriate argument, because it's not true. Since the beginning of WoW all classes have had at least some form of CC, be it roots, snares, interrupts, disarms, fears, stuns, incapacitates or disorients. However, saying you feel that every class has too many CC's now is understandable, but do note that we are not going to simply remove every single CC from the game.

If we were to remove all crowd control from the game, then everyone would simply run at each other and just mash buttons, with all things being equal whoever got the first hit would win. We definitely understand that there are legitimate reasons for why some players just don’t like CC, but when it comes to designing an interesting and interactive combat model for PvP, there are many more reasons for CC to exist.

12/02/2013 07:56Posted by Bestferalxo
- Make Blue PvP gear (Not the crappy Contender's set, but stuff as Dreadful) completely craftable. I'm getting sick of losing games against opponents I know I can win against just because they bought a RBG boost. World of Warcraft being a MMO (jk LFR) doesn't justify the huge gear gap this game currently has.
We are addressing gear disparity in patch 5.3, we know that catching up part way through a season where you have fallen behind in gear is frustrating. You can find out more about the upcoming gear changes for PvP here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/6994181

- Bring back CLASS UNIQUENESS! Every class has everything now. It's just plain boring. You might aswell remove classes because they are all copies of each other. Why did Paladins get an interrupt AND an AoE blind? What do Monks lack that no other Melee has? Why did Rogues and Mages get a heal?
Yet one of the key arguments that you see quite regularly here is, "Y has the ability to do Z. Why is it that my class, X, cannot also do Z?"

This is not to say you are wrong or that the above argument is in any way valid. The abilities a class has is just one of the things that makes them unique, you have to also think of their intricacies and how each one operates using their own mechanics and/or resources. Just because the game has moved away from more clunky systems such as Aura/Aspect twisting and stance dancing doesn't mean that all classes have become the same. We have been implementing new systems to the game that keeps making classes feel and play uniquely, like Holy Power and many others.

While it's not immediately evident, crowd control abilities are also unique to every class. In the end a stun ends up doing the same thing for all classes, but the how its used and what is done to use it is generally unique to each class. Saying that there are no unique classes because they can all CC is the same saying every class is identical because they can do damage (I understand that this is a hyperbole, but you get my point). The above reasons are why you see a great variety in classes played, because they are all different, if each of them were the same then why would there be classes?

12/02/2013 07:56Posted by Bestferalxo
- Make casters actually have to cast again. The current state of the so-called "casters" is completely retarded. They're basicly Melee DPS but from Ranged. It's just stupid.
I made a post about this a while back, we understand that the amount of instant casts is quite frustrating right now and we are looking into this. We wish to start not only moving many of the crowd control spells back to having a cast time, but also other spells as well. You can already see some of this shift in the 5.2 patch notes, such as the cast time on Blinding Light and an arming time on Ring of Frost when used with Presence of Mind. You can see the old post on this topic here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6133773365?page=6#108
Edited by Nakatoir on 12/02/2013 11:31 GMT
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100 Human Mage
10585
All I ever want is CC that only DR's with itself to be removed or added to their closest DR table and we'd have step closer to better game. Also there should be no such thing as 1/4 of stun, should be full and half and that's it. But that is redesigning DR tables and it's not going to happen this expansion.
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84 Tauren Druid
7280

At least they're aware of it, next expansion will fix it mejt >_>


You seriously think they'll fix it? Come on it what kind of dreamworld are you living. If they would make such drastic changes to classes, all the pve'lers would cry so much that you could fill the world ocean twice.
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32 Tauren Druid
110
Nakatoir, if Blizzard still wanted to make classes unique why did they add cheap rip-offs of the combo system such as the one you mentioned, Holy Power? They have nothing better to come up with since apparently this game is too gimmick to push two buttons.

I know that all classes had some form of CC in Vanilla/TBC, I just don't think adding even more to them is the right way to go. Why Blizzard even did that is beyond me.

Even in TBC people whined about Pummel, even if it was Fury only it was still an annoying instant lockout. The same people would gouge their eyes out if they had to PvP in the current state of World of Warcraft.

EDIT: Even small but fun and quality stuff like class quests were removed at the start of Cataclysm. Why? I absolutely LOVED the Bear Form quest on my druid. It was a nice piece of lore, it all happened in the same zone. Just pure awesomeness. The Paladin quest was quite nice aswell (except for having to run to Africa to ress the dwarf >_<). Why was this removed? Is quality of life wrong?

At least they're aware of it, next expansion will fix it mejt >_>


You seriously think they'll fix it? Come on it what kind of dreamworld are you living. If they would make such drastic changes to classes, all the pve'lers would cry so much that you could fill the world ocean twice.
I was being sarcastic D:
Edited by Bestferalxo on 12/02/2013 11:56 GMT
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87 Undead Warlock
9195
12/02/2013 11:31Posted by Nakatoir
- Strip classes off their CC. Some classes should not be able to CC at all. Warriors did perfectly fine throughout Vanilla, TBC and WotLK (bar S5) without any form of stun, same with many other classes that lacked CC. Rogues and Paladins were the only classes that had a form of stun and it should remain like that.
Warriors had mace stun in BC, Mages had Deep Freeze in WotLK and Impact stun in both WotLK and BC, Druids had both Bash and Pounce, even hunters had a form of stun in BC. Many more classes than just rogues and Paladins had a form of stun.

Stating that you feel some classes should not be able to CC because that is how it was back in the old days is not an appropriate argument, because it's not true. Since the beginning of WoW all classes have had at least some form of CC, be it roots, snares, interrupts, disarms, fears, stuns, incapacitates or disorients. However, saying you feel that every class has too many CC's now is understandable, but do note that we are not going to simply remove every single CC from the game.

If we were to remove all crowd control from the game, then everyone would simply run at each other and just mash buttons, with all things being equal whoever got the first hit would win. We definitely understand that there are legitimate reasons for why some players just don’t like CC, but when it comes to designing an interesting and interactive combat model for PvP, there are many more reasons for CC to exist.

- Make Blue PvP gear (Not the crappy Contender's set, but stuff as Dreadful) completely craftable. I'm getting sick of losing games against opponents I know I can win against just because they bought a RBG boost. World of Warcraft being a MMO (jk LFR) doesn't justify the huge gear gap this game currently has.
We are addressing gear disparity in patch 5.3, we know that catching up part way through a season where you have fallen behind in gear is frustrating. You can find out more about the upcoming gear changes for PvP here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/6994181

- Bring back CLASS UNIQUENESS! Every class has everything now. It's just plain boring. You might aswell remove classes because they are all copies of each other. Why did Paladins get an interrupt AND an AoE blind? What do Monks lack that no other Melee has? Why did Rogues and Mages get a heal?
Yet one of the key arguments that you see quite regularly here is, "Y has the ability to do Z. Why is it that my class, X, cannot also do Z?"

This is not to say you are wrong or that the above argument is in any way valid. The abilities a class has is just one of the things that makes them unique, you have to also think of their intricacies and how each one operates using their own mechanics and/or resources. Just because the game has moved away from more clunky systems such as Aura/Aspect twisting and stance dancing doesn't mean that all classes have become the same. We have been implementing new systems to the game that keeps making classes feel and play uniquely, like Holy Power and many others.

While it's not immediately evident, crowd control abilities are also unique to every class. In the end a stun ends up doing the same thing for all classes, but the how its used and what is done to use it is generally unique to each class. Saying that there are no unique classes because they can all CC is the same saying every class is identical because they can do damage (I understand that this is a hyperbole, but you get my point). The above reasons are why you see a great variety in classes played, because they are all different, if each of them were the same then why would there be classes?

12/02/2013 07:56Posted by Bestferalxo
- Make casters actually have to cast again. The current state of the so-called "casters" is completely retarded. They're basicly Melee DPS but from Ranged. It's just stupid.
I made a post about this a while back, we understand that the amount of instant casts is quite frustrating right now and we are looking into this. We wish to start not only moving many of the crowd control spells back to having a cast time, but also other spells as well. You can already see some of this shift in the 5.2 patch notes, such as the cast time on Blinding Light and an arming time on Ring of Frost when used with Presence of Mind.


excuses, every time the community comes up with something new / good / fun etc Blizzard, just quiet us down or come up with excuses.
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87 Undead Warlock
9195
12/02/2013 12:07Posted by Milkí
Having to stance dance back in wrath was dumb as %^-*, call it skill.. I call it bad game design.


I call you bad if you found that bad / hard. I enjoyed it and it was a blast playing as warrior in Wrath.
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90 Orc Shaman
7630
Well this is interesting to see a blue post on.

I have to agree with some of what the OP said but Nakatoir is right, all these people complaining about how it used to be great back in BC and Vanilla are simply looking through rose-tinted glasses.

I loved playing WoW at that time but the game in that state im sorry to say was nowhere near balanced. I think Blizzard were heading in the right direction with every season with regards to balance however I will say that I think MoP has given birth to.. well too much CC for a kick off especially when its mostly instant.

Now I realise this is something Blizzard are looking into and coming from a paying customer since the first year of vanilla, I trust Blizzard will find a solution despite the millions of people who would say I'm mad to think so.
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32 Tauren Druid
110
I think you have forgotten how !@#$ this game used to be. Perception of how fun a game is can change drastically over time. <snip> I get really annoyed at times with the design flaws that wow had back then. Obviously PvP balance is broken but that doesn't mean we need to go back to how it was. Having to stance dance back in wrath was dumb as %^-*, call it skill.. I call it bad game design.

Personally I'd like to see finetuning in pvp balance. Not the massive 20-50% damage/cc duration nerfs we've seen in last couple of months but weekly changes that add or reduce dmg done by a certain spell by something like 1-5%. Every competitive pvp game balances the game like that. Not throwing around 20-50% nerfs and hoping the stars will allign.
It's not like the game is much better now (although many aspects of the game have improved a lot, I'll give you that).

Mechanics like Stance Dancing started to lose their "skill" factor in late TBC and WotLK because of the new utilities given to other classes. Basicly all melee classes could put out maximum pressure even when going defensive, but Warriors couldn't.

In Vanilla and most of TBC a Warrior would still do very good damage with shield up. We had a Warrior in our guild on our old server (oh Zenedar, how I miss you, R.I.P 26 February 2006 - 6th May 2011) that managed to get his hands on some PvE weapon from SSC and the shield from Illidan, he almost did 50% more damage with the sword and shield up than with his PvP weapon, lol.

If they would just have removed the GCD loss and the huge damage penalty and added some new abilities only being able to be used in Defensive Stance, Stance Dancing would still be a viable, good and unique mechanic of Warriors.

Removing section of quote that violated Code of Conduct ~ Nakatoir
Edited by Nakatoir on 12/02/2013 12:51 GMT
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90 Gnome Warrior
11525
-
Edited by Milkí on 12/02/2013 16:22 GMT
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90 Undead Warlock
7300
I think you have forgotten how !@#$ this game used to be. Perception of how fun a game is can change drastically over time. <snip> I get really annoyed at times with the design flaws that wow had back then. Obviously PvP balance is broken but that doesn't mean we need to go back to how it was. Having to stance dance back in wrath was dumb as %^-*, call it skill.. I call it bad game design.

Personally I'd like to see finetuning in pvp balance. Not the massive 20-50% damage/cc duration nerfs we've seen in last couple of months but weekly changes that add or reduce dmg done by a certain spell by something like 1-5%. Every competitive pvp game balances the game like that. Not throwing around 20-50% nerfs and hoping the stars will allign.
Bet you had fun playing your warrior... Warriors was the single most overpowered class in this game as long as tfb was in the game and cooldown stacking existed. Maybe the most overpowered (arms) class in WoW history? It is close for sure. But yea damage reductions, quite severe ones were needed. And CC is out of control especially with the damage we have seen. But blame Blizzard for making monsters in PvP then having to butcher them later. This will probably to some degree happen in 5.2 as well. I bet.

Removing section of quote that violated Code of Conduct ~ Nakatoir
Edited by Nakatoir on 12/02/2013 12:53 GMT
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90 Goblin Priest
2385
Warriors had mace stun in BC, Mages had Deep Freeze in WotLK and Impact stun in both WotLK and BC, Druids had both Bash and Pounce, even hunters had a form of stun in BC. Many more classes than just rogues and Paladins had a form of stun.

Stating that you feel some classes should not be able to CC because that is how it was back in the old days is not an appropriate argument, because it's not true. Since the beginning of WoW all classes have had at least some form of CC, be it roots, snares, interrupts, disarms, fears, stuns, incapacitates or disorients. However, saying you feel that every class has too many CC's now is understandable, but do note that we are not going to simply remove every single CC from the game.

If we were to remove all crowd control from the game, then everyone would simply run at each other and just mash buttons, with all things being equal whoever got the first hit would win. We definitely understand that there are legitimate reasons for why some players just don’t like CC, but when it comes to designing an interesting and interactive combat model for PvP, there are many more reasons for CC to exist.


It's true, but CCs were more rare than nowaday. It's not about CC overall, it's about beeing stunlocked for 15 -20 seconds and beeing unable to take any action...
Other hand, CC required more skill to use, fear wanst instant, war's stun was connected with his charge and he didnt cause through it damage about 50% of enemy's hp. CDs were generally longer what means you had to spend them carefully.
Also you miss 1 very important thing, if class had a CCs it had also some restrictions. More skills were up to DR, so generally best CC in tbc was from druid + warlock, where warlock didnt have burst at all + was more open to melee dps like warr or rogue.
Nowaday i can stay while stunned about 20 seconds [ beeing dmaged through this time ].

This is not to say you are wrong or that the above argument is in any way valid. The abilities a class has is just one of the things that makes them unique, you have to also think of their intricacies and how each one operates using their own mechanics and/or resources. Just because the game has moved away from more clunky systems such as Aura/Aspect twisting and stance dancing doesn't mean that all classes have become the same. We have been implementing new systems to the game that keeps making classes feel and play uniquely, like Holy Power and many others.

While it's not immediately evident, crowd control abilities are also unique to every class. In the end a stun ends up doing the same thing for all classes, but the how its used and what is done to use it is generally unique to each class. Saying that there are no unique classes because they can all CC is the same saying every class is identical because they can do damage (I understand that this is a hyperbole, but you get my point). The above reasons are why you see a great variety in classes played, because they are all different, if each of them were the same then why would there be classes?


It's not generally true. It's normal than every class do damage or heal...
The point is about game style. From the time you made every dps and healer [ with exeptions ] never ending mana, you stole one game play [ mana match ]. That's just the example.
You are also wrong about uniqness of CC for ecery class. Now is generally the same. Generally instant stuns / chain of stuns.
You just made this game so easy and borring.
Naowaday you step into arena, and nuke one of your enemy. That's how it looks like from my [ disci ] side, when i face other teams.
In tbc long stun was available only for rogue.
Now : Monk , Rogue, Warrior,
Interupt in TBC
warr, rogue mage and lock + hunter in MM tree [ silence ] and shadow [ silence ]
NoW : warr, rogue, mage, hunter, paladin, shadow priest, lock, DK, monk, shaman, druid, DK hm... every class ? yea with litle exeption of disci priest
So, as you see, in the past only few spec had a stuns[ longer that 3 sec every 30 sec ] and silence and they were classes without it, and they were fine. Why ? because they have other, different ways to kill enemy.
Sometime i do not recognize who is attacking me, rogue or monk. Whats the difference ? both keep me stunlocked.
The true is you dont have an idea and you dont event want to have an idea to do pvp better, which is every patch less skilled and less balanced.
Also, you stole possibilty of beeing support in burst for healers...
Also, you added passive or instant healing for every class
thats the proof that you have no idea about this game.
In future you can add for every class skill " KILL" [ with known efect ] and say that game is balanced becasue everyone has the same skill.
You think your ideas are good, but if you read this forum you can see how ppl are borred, angree and confused about today's PvP.

And one question for you, what is the difference playing paladin holy and discipline priest in gamestyle ?
If you would try to answer this, you maybe understand what we mean about uniqueness.
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90 Gnome Warrior
11525
-
Edited by Milkí on 12/02/2013 16:23 GMT
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100 Night Elf Warrior
16000
I'd also like to add that the visual effects of many spells and also the amount of pets are out of control, creating a chaotic and seizure-inducing environment in large-scale pvp or pve.
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