PvP players forced to play every week

90 Orc Hunter
0
This isn't PvE vs PvP topic. I don't care if PvE players need to work more or less than I do but what I care about the insane gear imbalances atm. How fun is it to fight versus players who don't need to care about anything because they can't be killed and they kill you in matter of seconds?
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90 Human Mage
10645
I have to break that calculation and assumption of yours; If 5.3 brings back Item Upgrade Vendors for PvP, it requires over 69k Conquest Points to get fully geared. With the best possible cap attainable in game you need over 4 months to gear 1 of your characters. And that is only attainable through 2.4k+ RBG rating. 5 weeks compared to over 4 months is quite huge difference in a game mode where gear should not be even relevant.

This ofcourse after you have spent 24h (average time spent) on bg's grinding honorgear.

Also, PvE players tend to run towards gear, because it is their reward for completing and finishing a boss. PvP players do not "kill bosses and loot them". Also, you do not need optimal PvE gear to kill a boss, PvE is not heavily gear dependant as PvP currently is.


Oh and PVE players wont get item upgrades? Think before you post next time.


Care to elaborate?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8420
How is this any different for PvE players who have to complete raids each week in order to remain competitive and at the top of the raiding scene?


It is different because in pve even if your gear is not the best you still stand a good chance to win boss fight - it's just numbers: is your dps is high enough to kill boss before enrage.
Secondly, theoretically you can earn a reward from every boss if you are lucky enough. So gearing in raids is million times faster than for pvp where you have weekly cap.

As for pvp it is heavily gear based. And it's 100% discouraging to enter pvp mid season because there is no way you can compete.

If i had an option to play for free because I cannot compete in pvp due to gear differential i'd use this option 1000%, and i'd gladly pay double monthly fee if i had a chance to catch up on pvp gear in 2-3 weeks.
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90 Orc Hunter
0
20/02/2013 12:49Posted by Gambolputty
How is this any different for PvE players who have to complete raids each week in order to remain competitive and at the top of the raiding scene?


It is different because in pve even if your gear is not the best you still stand a good chance to win boss fight - it's just numbers: is your dps is high enough to kill boss before enrage.
Secondly, theoretically you can earn a reward from every boss if you are lucky enough. So gearing in raids is million times faster than for pvp where you have weekly cap.

As for pvp it is heavily gear based. And it's 100% discouraging to enter pvp mid season because there is no way you can compete.

If i had an option to play for free because I cannot compete in pvp due to gear differential i'd use this option 1000%, and i'd gladly pay double monthly fee if i had a chance to catch up on pvp gear in 2-3 weeks.


You can't think pve as if every boss have chance to drop you something. High end guilds gear their players so that it is optimal for their performance as a guild.

This thread is going in to the direction of one percenters. Look guys, the new players can't even pvp atm out side random BG and even experienced players that I know who aren't in full gears are far lower than they should be.

Wow have always been a game for elitist few and this is problem now a days ppl aren't willing to grind their life away in computer game just to be able to have a fair chance.
Edited by Diffuusio on 20/02/2013 13:23 GMT
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So all in all, if there are 13 bosses in Throne of Thunder, it will take a 25 man raid of the exact same players every week, 5 weeks of full clearing Heroic mode to gear perfectly under optimal conditions. Don't forget as well that Heroic mode is not easily accessible, or even easy to clear and as such takes some time to get on farm, so that number goes a LOT higher if you account for these reasons as well as those mentioned above. Ii is safe to assume that the time required for gearing a PvE character in BiS items would be about equal to the time needed to do the same for a PvP character.

Given all of this, to be saying that a PvE player doesn't need to clear content every week in order to remain competitive with other top players, is incorrect.


I think the point is...he doesn't. Once a PvE player gets his gear, that's basically it for him. He is geared. His raid may or may not be. How long will this take him? Anywhere from 1 week -- if he is really lucky - up to the point where he might still be missing a piece or two or three when the next tier launches if he isn't.

In PvP, even when he is fully geared...even if his team is fully geared...being competitive requires more than that because the system isn't based upon a weekly tournament, but on a setup that can last some time. Your reward are based upon your performance and score at the end of the season so getting geared up isn't the end. Further, your chances of victory are also affected by the time the other team/players spends in PvP. With PvE, you get the kill and rewards every week. PvP doesn't have just that. There are extra rewards at the end of a season that players will still need to battle for.

EJL
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90 Gnome Warlock
15890
The fact of the matter is that you cannot compete in anything seriously, be it in game or in real life, without devoting yourself to it.

I don't honestly see what you're suggesting. While I'm all for a PvPgear-free environment, Blizzard has stated this won't happen - and besides, people who do play every day will simply end up outplaying you when you don't log in regularly. Compare it to RL sports. /shrug

You're not forced to do anything, but yeah, if you want to be serious about it you better log in every week, every day preferably, cap that stuff and play constantly to get better.
Edited by Séc on 20/02/2013 13:40 GMT
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90 Gnome Warlock
15890
So all in all, if there are 13 bosses in Throne of Thunder, it will take a 25 man raid of the exact same players every week, 5 weeks of full clearing Heroic mode to gear perfectly under optimal conditions. Don't forget as well that Heroic mode is not easily accessible, or even easy to clear and as such takes some time to get on farm, so that number goes a LOT higher if you account for these reasons as well as those mentioned above. Ii is safe to assume that the time required for gearing a PvE character in BiS items would be about equal to the time needed to do the same for a PvP character.

Given all of this, to be saying that a PvE player doesn't need to clear content every week in order to remain competitive with other top players, is incorrect.


I think the point is...he doesn't. Once a PvE player gets his gear, that's basically it for him. He is geared. His raid may or may not be. How long will this take him? Anywhere from 1 week -- if he is really lucky - up to the point where he might still be missing a piece or two or three when the next tier launches if he isn't.

In PvP, even when he is fully geared...even if his team is fully geared...being competitive requires more than that because the system isn't based upon a weekly tournament, but on a setup that can last some time. Your reward are based upon your performance and score at the end of the season so getting geared up isn't the end. Further, your chances of victory are also affected by the time the other team/players spends in PvP. With PvE, you get the kill and rewards every week. PvP doesn't have just that. There are extra rewards at the end of a season that players will still need to battle for.

EJL


You compare Pve and Pvp, but you only look at the gear aspects of Pve while looking at all other aspects in PvP. Just like in PvE, if you don't play a lot you'll simply not be as good. Guild progression race for mortal, non-paragon guilds on realms often continues till the very last - even today, not many guilds have killed Sha hc. Besides, with the current upgrade system, Pve players are never done gearing either. And anyway, do you do PvP to just do it and be done with it and never log back in for the rest of the season? We raid every week cause we must but also because we enjoy it and we do it to the last week of the patch. If it's such a chore for you, are you sure this game is the right for you guys?

I like PvP, I really do, so why am I not doing it more seriously? Because I admit I cannot devote myself to it that much, I cannot cap conquest every week, I do not have the time for a serious arenateam that wants the best rankings, and as a result I accept my gear will be less good than those who will, and undoubtfully my skill also. I do get facestomped a lot. That's my own fault, and while the system has flaws, I cannot blame it on the system. Had I put the time and effort in it like everyone else there'd be nothing to complain about. ;)
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8420
I think the point is that you can join pve mid season and be fine with it. But joining pvp midseason is frustrating and not fun at all.
I do understand that ppl who dedicate every week to pvp deserve to have better gear but the gap between this players and casual should be narrowed. In the end I believe most of the income comes from casual players. If no, rest my case.
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86 Blood Elf Mage
0
20/02/2013 10:43Posted by Nakatoir
Actually it is quite different. A lot of top-end raiding guilds raid a TON the first few weeks, then go on farm a little bit later, and then they might start doing alt-runs of boost-runs in the end but at that point there is no expectations that you show up if you don't want to.
In order for every player in a 25 player raid group to get their BiS gear, in an ideal situation where a each of the 6 items dropped by a boss were a BiS upgrade someone needed, PvE players need to kill 63 bosses in a 25 man raid. This is under ideal circumstances too, where everyone only needs one weapon and not a main-hand and off-hand as well as as well as the previously mentioned BiS drops situation, quite regularly drops will appear that have no use to anyone or go to an off-spec.

So all in all, if there are 13 bosses in Throne of Thunder, it will take a 25 man raid of the exact same players every week, 5 weeks of full clearing Heroic mode to gear perfectly under optimal conditions. Don't forget as well that Heroic mode is not easily accessible, or even easy to clear and as such takes some time to get on farm, so that number goes a LOT higher if you account for these reasons as well as those mentioned above. Ii is safe to assume that the time required for gearing a PvE character in BiS items would be about equal to the time needed to do the same for a PvP character.

Given all of this, to be saying that a PvE player doesn't need to clear content every week in order to remain competitive with other top players, is incorrect.


I'm so tired of hearing the standard response that we're not being forced to do anything. Maybe forced is the wrong word but for a lot of people (I don't think that's hyperbole, going off of the ocean of forum posts) it does feel that way. Call it what you want. People feel forced.
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85 Draenei Mage
5895
I'm forced to raid if I want raid gear.
I'm forced to get bis gear if I want to do best dps.
I'm forced to get achievements if I want to compete with most achievements obtained.
I'm forced to go Method if I want to be in Method.

Let's make endless topics about people forced to do different things. You have been "forced" to do arenas every week if you wanted to compete since TBC. According to your achievements you were playing arenas during WotLK. Don't tell me that you didn't have to get arena points every week to compete.

If you are "forced" to get points weekly because other teams can upgrade their epics your complain is outdated. In 5.2 you can't upgrade new set and season ends in two weeks so I don't really see point of this thread.
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90 Human Death Knight
13890
In order for every player in a 25 player raid group to get their BiS gear, in an ideal situation where a each of the 6 items dropped by a boss were a BiS upgrade someone needed, PvE players need to kill 63 bosses in a 25 man raid. This is under ideal circumstances too, where everyone only needs one weapon and not a main-hand and off-hand as well as as well as the previously mentioned BiS drops situation, quite regularly drops will appear that have no use to anyone or go to an off-spec.

So all in all, if there are 13 bosses in Throne of Thunder, it will take a 25 man raid of the exact same players every week, 5 weeks of full clearing Heroic mode to gear perfectly under optimal conditions. Don't forget as well that Heroic mode is not easily accessible, or even easy to clear and as such takes some time to get on farm, so that number goes a LOT higher if you account for these reasons as well as those mentioned above. Ii is safe to assume that the time required for gearing a PvE character in BiS items would be about equal to the time needed to do the same for a PvP character.

Given all of this, to be saying that a PvE player doesn't need to clear content every week in order to remain competitive with other top players, is incorrect.


Yes that is true tho they got dungeons lfr scenarios to actually gear them up while pvpers we get bgs and arena, tho this season honor gear was far from enough since they stupid buff on pvp weps, wich actually made people get global'd, and if you started mid way trough this season you might of just given up...
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90 Human Monk
11150
20/02/2013 14:04Posted by Gambolputty
I think the point is that you can join pve mid season and be fine with it. But joining pvp midseason is frustrating and not fun at all.


No, it's exactly the same. You can not compete with the top guilds in PvE if you join mid patch. You can not compete with top teams in PvP if you join mid season. It's quite logical.
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90 Human Mage
10645
I think the point is that you can join pve mid season and be fine with it. But joining pvp midseason is frustrating and not fun at all.


No, it's exactly the same. You can not compete with the top guilds in PvE if you join mid patch. You can not compete with top teams in PvP if you join mid season. It's quite logical.


After the raid has been cleared by 1 guild in the world, what's there to compete about? Server firsts, what a joke. Most servers have 1-3 PvE guilds that "compete".
Besides, 5 weeks gearing in PvE against 4 months of gearing in PvP which is "minigame" in this game is a joke.

Edit;
Besides, word compete is quite big for the issue with gear on PvP. Word "play" or "perform" even slightly in PvP is about right. I can not perform my class/spec roles in PvP because I die to passive damage while the enemies are like raidbosses, taking no damage and dealing too much for you to handle.
Edited by Crâwthz on 20/02/2013 16:02 GMT
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90 Human Rogue
9240
How is this any different for PvE players who have to complete raids each week in order to remain competitive and at the top of the raiding scene?


/sigh.

PvE is about collecting gear, PvP is not. PvP is not about outgearing your opponent or about keeping up with the geartrain.

I am getting tired of people waving PvP problems away with the fallacy but in PvE you...

No, it's exactly the same. You can not compete with the top guilds in PvE if you join mid patch. You can not compete with top teams in PvP if you join mid season. It's quite logical.


PvE is not a competition on the same level as PvP is.



Let's make endless topics about people forced to do different things. You have been "forced" to do arenas every week if you wanted to compete since TBC. According to your achievements you were playing arenas during WotLK. Don't tell me that you didn't have to get arena points every week to compete.


But never to this extend. In TBC and WotLK, you could do fine if you joined mid-season or joined as alt, right now, you cannot. You won't ever be able to compete for the top spots if you cannot play for a week of two.. three.

How does that improve competition?
Edited by Sharein on 20/02/2013 16:23 GMT
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Community
20/02/2013 12:34Posted by Diffuusio
This isn't PvE vs PvP topic. I don't care if PvE players need to work more or less than I do but what I care about the insane gear imbalances atm. How fun is it to fight versus players who don't need to care about anything because they can't be killed and they kill you in matter of seconds?
I recommend that you take a look at my previous post in the thread that mentions how we are addressing gear disparity and mid-season catch-up issues players have in patch 5.2.

20/02/2013 15:54Posted by Crâwthz
Besides, 5 weeks gearing in PvE against 4 months of gearing in PvP which is "minigame" in this game is a joke.
It will take you a lot longer to get fully geared in PvE than just five weeks. In PvP gear upgrades to BiS are assured simply by earning your points, whereas in PvE it is mostly about the luck of the drop, in which you can sometimes go weeks without an upgrade. :(

20/02/2013 15:54Posted by Crâwthz
After the raid has been cleared by 1 guild in the world, what's there to compete about? Server firsts, what a joke. Most servers have 1-3 PvE guilds that "compete".
And on each server there are generally only a few teams that are competing to get rank one on the Battlegroup. There are many guilds out there that compete to simply climb in the world rankings, much like there are Arena Teams that compete every week pushing themselves to try and reach rank one.

The main difference between PvP competition and PvE competition is that PvP gearing happens at the start of the patch and the competition ends at its conclusion, for PvE players it is the competition and the race that comes first and the gearing that happens afterwards in preparation for the next tier.

20/02/2013 13:36Posted by Talen
With PvE, you get the kill and rewards every week. PvP doesn't have just that.
It kind of does, your cap resets each week allowing you beat more players in arena to get more Conquest points and as such, new gear.

20/02/2013 12:49Posted by Gambolputty
Secondly, theoretically you can earn a reward from every boss if you are lucky enough. So gearing in raids is million times faster than for pvp where you have weekly cap.
However gearing and playing in a raid is not just about the individual. Sure, it's possible for one player to get fully geared out in a couple of runs, but what about everyone else? Their performance will be under par. Gearing an individual from a raid in PvE might be reasonably quick, but gearing an entire raid so they perform at an adequate level, isn't.

I am getting tired of people waving PvP problems away with the fallacy but in PvE you...
I am not dismissing it, I am simply stating that it's not required or forced upon you to participate in PvP every week. However if you are wanting to compete at the very top against all others in the game, no matter whether you PvE or PvP, it is definitely a bonus to participate and compete weekly in order to improve your character as much as possible.
Edited by Nakatoir on 20/02/2013 16:31 GMT
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90 Human Rogue
9240
It will take you a lot longer to get fully geared in PvE than just five weeks. In PvP gear upgrades to BiS are assured simply by earning your points, whereas in PvE it is mostly about the luck of the drop, in which you can sometimes go weeks without an upgrade. :(


We aren't playing PvE.

It is so annoying that people continue to think that PvP and PvE is the same thing! It is not!
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90 Orc Hunter
0
20/02/2013 16:25Posted by Nakatoir
This isn't PvE vs PvP topic. I don't care if PvE players need to work more or less than I do but what I care about the insane gear imbalances atm. How fun is it to fight versus players who don't need to care about anything because they can't be killed and they kill you in matter of seconds?
I recommend that you take a look at my previous post in the thread that mentions how we are addressing gear disparity and mid-season catch-up issues players have in patch 5.2.

Besides, 5 weeks gearing in PvE against 4 months of gearing in PvP which is "minigame" in this game is a joke.
It will take you a lot longer to get fully geared in PvE than just five weeks. In PvP gear upgrades to BiS are assured simply by earning your points, whereas in PvE it is mostly about the luck of the drop, in which you can sometimes go weeks without an upgrade. :(

After the raid has been cleared by 1 guild in the world, what's there to compete about? Server firsts, what a joke. Most servers have 1-3 PvE guilds that "compete".
And on each server there are generally only a few teams that are competing to get rank one on the Battlegroup. There are many guilds out there that compete to simply climb in the world rankings, much like there are Arena Teams that compete every week pushing themselves to try and reach rank one.

The main difference between PvP competition and PvE competition is that PvP gearing happens at the start of the patch and the competition ends at its conclusion, for PvE players it is the competition and the race that comes first and the gearing that happens afterwards in preparation for the next tier.

With PvE, you get the kill and rewards every week. PvP doesn't have just that.
It kind of does, your cap resets each week allowing you beat more players in arena to get more Conquest points and as such, new gear.

Secondly, theoretically you can earn a reward from every boss if you are lucky enough. So gearing in raids is million times faster than for pvp where you have weekly cap.
However gearing and playing in a raid is not just about the individual. Sure, it's possible for one player to get fully geared out in a couple of runs, but what about everyone else? Their performance will be under par. Gearing an individual from a raid in PvE might be reasonably quick, but gearing an entire raid so they perform at an adequate level, isn't.

I am getting tired of people waving PvP problems away with the fallacy but in PvE you...
I am not dismissing it, I am simply stating that it's not required or forced upon you to participate in PvP every week. However if you are wanting to compete at the very top against all others in the game, no matter whether you PvE or PvP, it is definitely a bonus to participate and compete weekly in order to improve your character as much as possible.


Mid season catch up is 1000 conquest points pet week versus 2.5k or something like that? My friend, who's approximate skill is 1600ish on cyclone arenas, got 2.2k in rbg and now suddenly he gets like 2k in arenas.

To prove ridiculousness gear wise I met him in mage priest mirror in 2s while me and my friend were at 13k cq earned and he and his rbg friend were full malevont and we still won. During the game his friend who has 2k xp as well didn't do a single thing untill we got other player down. Their mmr was around 1700 ours was about 1500 for simple fact that the players who don't know how to cordinate cc, dmg or anything can get much higher just because they can one-shot ppl.

Now that we get elite gears the difference will be bigger. Not even if we try can we hope to catch up those RBG player gears since the season will end before we even get the full gears. Even if RBG and arenas gave same amount of points for same rating it still would be disadvantage for most arena players since RBG rating is easier to get.
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85 Tauren Warrior
10035
20/02/2013 16:25Posted by Nakatoir
I am not dismissing it, I am simply stating that it's not required or forced upon you to participate in PvP every week. However if you are wanting to compete at the very top against all others in the game, no matter whether you PvE or PvP, it is definitely a bonus to participate and compete weekly in order to improve your character as much as possible.


The problem with PvP is that you can't even compete with the midsection if you missed a couple of weeks of arena. That's how much gear matters atm. T2 is like 20+ ilvls, if you missed the start you wont be able to get T2 from arena pretty much.

Sure you can get it from RBG but RBG is !@#$ and should have different gear from arena. So tired of all the RBG people having T2 and stuck in the 1500 brackets.
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90 Undead Warlock
6415
20/02/2013 16:25Posted by Nakatoir
I am not dismissing it, I am simply stating that it's not required or forced upon you to participate in PvP every week. However if you are wanting to compete at the very top against all others in the game, no matter whether you PvE or PvP, it is definitely a bonus to participate and compete weekly in order to improve your character as much as possible.


PvE is just fine. You can play at your own pace if you don't want to do X or Y. In PvP you are forced to grind gear (= play arena or rated battleground) if you do not want to get roflstomped by players with much better gear. PvP and PvE are so different - it's like comparing apples and cars.

Add gear matching for random battlegrounds => many happy players.
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