The Number 1 Problem In Wow

90 Human Death Knight
7800
It was hard, i dont say they should copy vanilla they just need to tune things up.
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90 Human Death Knight
7800
okay i just want to make a few things clear here

- i have never said that vanilla was good, i just said it had hard raid content indeed because of the fact that people didnt have aoe healing or anything but whatever the conditions were, it was hard

- even though there is normal and heroic mode i dont see the challange there if it gets beaten in 48 hours i would just like to see a extreme boost for all dungeons and raids even on normall mode, the casuals of today are not skilled in any way shape or form they are just wacking on a boss and it falls down, even casual players can live up to higher standards, thats why they need to boost everything
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90 Troll Druid
10205
18/03/2013 14:43Posted by Ragaranos
- even though there is normal and heroic mode i dont see the challange there if it gets beaten in 48 hours

by some mysterious guild which for some reason doesn't participate in wowprogress ranking?
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MVP
90 Gnome Priest
18815
by some mysterious guild which for some reason doesn't participate in wowprogress ranking?

When Paragon beats a boss, we've all beaten the boss! \o/

...appearantly.
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- i have never said that vanilla was good, i just said it had hard raid content indeed because of the fact that people didnt have aoe healing or anything but whatever the conditions were, it was hard


The difficulty of Vanilla didn't really rely on DPS timers or complicated strategies, though (at least not as a norm, those definitely existed back then as well). Patchwerk was a tight DPS check in Naxxramas. Four Horsemen did have a strict tank requirement to be met. And some other bosses had gear resistance requirements.

However, what made it hard wasn't the actual boss in many cases, but the fact the only way to access those was by going through a rather lengthy tier route:

Tier 0.5: Zul'Gurub
Tier 1: Molten Core (except Ragnaros)
Tier 1.5: Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj
Tier 2: Onyxia, Blackwing Lair, Ragnaros
Tier 2.5: Temple of Ahn'Qiraj
Tier 3: Naxxramas

Of all these, Zul'Gurub and Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj could be ignored to some degree, but all the others were mandatory in order to get into the next step, with some overlapping though. (You might be able to take down Anub'rekhan in Naxxramas while still working on C'Thun in Temple of Ahn'Qiraj).

18/03/2013 14:43Posted by Ragaranos
- even though there is normal and heroic mode i dont see the challange there if it gets beaten in 48 hours

What could you possibly do now that people that aren't you have cleared Throne of Thunder in normal mode? (at the time of writing this post, the most progressed guild in the world is 11/13 Heroic)

In all seriousness, it's not even possible to compare this to the old days. Meaning, there wasn't a Heroic mode of which you could get enough gear to overgear the Normal mode raid of the upcoming raid tier (which happens to some degree these days), and the availability of online resources and general knowledge of the game inside the community has increased a thousand fold. These days you can find anything on the internet, from guides to optimize your gear to perfection (Ask Mr Robot) to guides for your bosses (Tankspot, Icy-Veins) to tips and hints about your best rotation, glyphs and talents (Max DPS). And of course, very complete Item/Spell/Quests DBs (WoWHead, WoWDB).

And not just for raiding, for Fishing (El's Extreme Anglin') making gold/using the AH (Elvine) and of course pets and pet battles (Warcraft Pets, Petopia).

Sites that follow what's going around the WoW scene and latest updates. (WoW Insider, MMO-Champion)

Oh, and comics. Those won't make you improve but will make you realize how big this community actually is and probably make you laugh as well (The Daily Blink, Dark Legacy Comics, Teh Gladiators).

And this is just scratching the surface. Really.

I didn't mention language specific fansites (there's a ton of them, and some are super popular in their languages), specialized fansites that focus on particular classes or aspects of the game, blogs, artists, addon developers and so much more. The Warcraft community is immense.

And of course, that huge size has also its impact on how much, how good and how quickly the information about raids flies around. So, you can't just pin it down to "the raids must be easier because now they are way easier" and call it a day, because the thing is, World of Warcraft is a very different game than 8 years ago. But the community? The community is always getting better and better (and bigger!). So, in my humble opinion, rather than arguing it's because the game now is easier (it isn't, there's a Heroic mode where guilds are facing some of the most challenging bosses ever released on this game) we should give a shout to all those guys and gals, known and yet-to-be-known that are enriching the community.

i would just like to see a extreme boost for all dungeons and raids even on normall mode, the casuals of today are not skilled in any way shape or form they are just wacking on a boss and it falls down, even casual players can live up to higher standards, thats why they need to boost everything


You'll probably be able to find very skilled casual players. But on a tool used to create groups randomly, it's unlikely they'll be able to coordinate together (they don't know each other, they might miss communication tools, or not even be there yet in terms of game knowledge to tackle harder bosses). Those players, if they wish to, and can, are more than welcome to experience the raids on normal and Heroic.

The challenge is there. It's up to you to decide how much of it you want, but I honestly don't think it's fair to say the game has gotten easier without having experienced the most difficult content available in-game and at the same time using as proof what someone else on the internet has done.

In the end, what's important is what you experience. If someone else beats Throne of Thunder Normal in 48 hours... good for them, your experience is still intact :-)

TLDR: Don't be lazy. Read the post.
Edited by Draztal on 18/03/2013 16:23 GMT
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
13905
[quote]
even though there is normal and heroic mode i dont see the challange there if it gets beaten in 48 hours

What could you possibly do now that people that aren't you have cleared Throne of Thunder in normal mode? (at the time of writing this post, the most progressed guild in the world is 11/13 Heroic)

I
Oh boy.. That was the most epic shut down ever.

OP did you even raid in TBC? None of your chives seem to point that way.
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90 Night Elf Mage
10255
(thinks) "It's a pity you can't "Like" a blue post...."
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90 Undead Mage
14070
I just enjoyed a blue post.

for the first time ever.
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
LFR is there for a purpose so you might aswell get over it.

Even if the top guilds have beaten normal mode Disneyland (ToT) I still enjoy it when our little guild is now progressing. Same as I did with MSV, HoF and ToeS normal modes.

You have to accept that people got different abilities and some are just not as skilled as others, why would the game be tailored towards a certain level of Skill when they can make content for pretty much all levels?

It's a great game and I love raiding, why would I want less people doing it?
And for that matter if more people are raiding more work will be put on it, everyone wins.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
11435
TLDR: Don't be lazy. Read the post.


Amen.
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90 Draenei Mage
20540
1,4% of raiding guilds cleared full t14h in time.
That's approx 0,11% of all playerbase.

Easy content, yeah.
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90 Human Priest
9085
back in vanilla/tbc ppl didn't raid 40 of the 48 hours with 10-15 mins break every 5 hours tbh and didn't get sponsored/paid to do it
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90 Dwarf Paladin
11990
[...]
now when a new raid comes out its beaten in the first 48 hours after it came out or faster wich means that the level of difficulty is too low
[...]
Dear Ragaranos,
first of all - and I'm really sorry to say this - your post was really hard to read. Secondly you seem to have no clue how dedicated the cutting edge guilds work towards their world firsts. Therefore you shouldn't judge the degree of difficulty, especially based on what seems to be your only source for your judgement.

- more tactics on bosses to think about
- Challenging trash mobs
- 100% incresed health and 50% incresed damage ( or maybe even more )
- 15 itemlevels higher then for normal mode to enter
- Special recipe drops from bosses that you would normally not get in order to make epic items
- and maybe an extra boss for heroic mode only that is Extremley challenging that you can only attempt 1 time just like vanessa vancleef in deadmines
Thirdly, you seem to haven't done many hard modes lately. I suggest you try more of them and then you may find more of your desired tactics, hard hitting bosses and everything else.
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90 Human Warlock
9250

In the end, what's important is what you experience. If someone else beats Throne of Thunder Normal in 48 hours... good for them, your experience is still intact :-)


I personally feel that this is wrong. This is an mmorpg, it's not a solo rpg, and yet I constantly find posts like yours, with a reasoning that is based on how an individual would feel playing a single player game (although obviously in the case of your post, there are also some very much valid arguments imo, I'm not discrediting the whole post).

The mmo genre is about group play and competition, and it feels more and more like the PvE dev team is trying to slowly remove this "inconvenience" for casual players (I am a casual player btw).

This creates a paradox, it's like trying to look left and right at the same time. An mmorpg, where competition, group play and e-peen are the predominant characteristics, can never be a solo-rpg, where there are none of the above.

Another problem is Blizzard's definition of a casual, and the way they put the casual players in just the one category. Outside of high end PvE, everything else is "casual". That's the vast majority of the player base. But imho within the group branded "casual" there are various different mindsets. For example I only play a few hours per week, but I don't want anything handed to me on a platter. If I know I can get it easily, I won't bother, games are meant to be challenging. I don't like LFR, I don't like everything being made easy. I like any of my few achievements to be worth something, and not just "oh LFR casual noob achievement". I'm a casual, but I worked hard to get all my gold medals, with many hours of wiping and it took me several weeks.
But I feel I've achieved something, and even if I don't have the time or patience to achieve as much (in terms of quantity) as hardcore raiders, what little I have achieved is worth something in the eyes of people in the community.

Breezing through LFR and heroics allows me to see new models and graphics, but it doesn't allow me to see "content".

Signed:

A casual WoW player
Edited by Mýst on 18/03/2013 16:51 GMT
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90 Human Warrior
13670
Hey guys, you will probably be able to think of several thinks that are wrong with world of warcraft at the moment, but for me there is only 1 problem.

during the burning crusade i expirienced how it was to do dungeons and raid content that was really hard ofcourse you could say that that means the game is only fun for hardcore players but it is only a challange for casuals to live up to the level of the hardcore players without having them to spend more time on the game that they dont have.

the raid content in the burning crusade expansion was so hard that kael'thas sunstrider was not even defeated once not even by the top guilds at that time when the patch
"the black temple" came out people were focusing on beating the content and didnt have to wait for new content because they couldnt beat it before a new patch came resulting in the fact that people always had new content to expirience.

now when a new raid comes out its beaten in the first 48 hours after it came out or faster wich means that the level of difficulty is too low, even casual players now can beat raid bosses without a guild with the raid finder tool, i am not saying there is anything wrong with the raid finder tool but the fact that they are casual players doenst mean that the raids on raid finder difficulty have to be tuned down for them together with the gear, it means that only the gear needs to be turned down, wich is a good reason for people to raid with guilds more often instead of using the raid finder tool, because they get better gear out of it.

i hope that some of you took the time to read this and can give me your opinions on this topic thanks for reading

greetings, Ragaranos


and yet your account profile shows no cleared raid history just 3 bosses down in dragonsoul lfr so i dont understand how you can call current content easier then tbc.
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90 Human Hunter
10120
Have you bothered to consider the heroic modes?


Heroic modes is just lazy development. Re-using same bosses, same instances etc and just make them harder. Heroic raids aren't new content, and tbh who would wanna do the same content, the same bosses etc on 3 different lv of challange? If that's not a lazy way to re-use content, then I don't know what is.
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90 Night Elf Mage
10255

In the end, what's important is what you experience. If someone else beats Throne of Thunder Normal in 48 hours... good for them, your experience is still intact :-)


I personally feel that this is wrong. This is an mmorpg, it's not a solo rpg, and yet I constantly find posts like yours, with a reasoning that is based on how an individual would feel playing a single player game (although obviously in the case of your post, there are also some very much valid arguments imo, I'm not discrediting the whole post).

The mmo genre is about group play and competition, and it feels more and more like the PvE dev team is trying to slowly remove this "inconvenience" for casual players (I am a casual player btw).

This creates a paradox, it's like trying to look left and right at the same time. An mmorpg, where competition, group play and e-peen are the predominant characteristics, can never be a solo-rpg, where there are none of the above.


I'm sorry, I don't understand your point. I don't quite see how what you said contradicts the quote. Are you saying that Method and Blood Legion are right now making your personal experience less meaningful?

Draztal said that your experience is intact even when someone else achieves something at a higher level. I agree. Just because someone plays violin with the London Symphony Orchestra doesn't invalidate my playing with the impromptu-and-dragooned gang at the local Christmas Concert. (And if you don't think that "competition, group play and e-peen (er, well, ego, at least)" is a factor in music, you really need to pick up an instrument. :)

18/03/2013 16:46Posted by Mýst
Another problem is Blizzard's definition of a casual, and the way they put the casual players in just the one category. Outside of high end PvE, everything else is "casual".


OK, now this one I think is just unfair, unless you can point to the Official Blizzard Definition of "casual".
Edited by Gráinne on 18/03/2013 17:18 GMT
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90 Gnome Death Knight
8035
[Draztal has just been upgraded to epic]
Blues on fire!

Alas, on topic, I can't compare tbc to now because I started in wrath. But I think that the skill of your raid team is crucial to make something easier/harder. It's not only about the boss. More about coordination.
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Discussions like this will not lead to anything good. I am still really scared the developers are going to listen to the sheer amount of people who want to get back to classic alike progression (even if there are no real arguments to do that), where time invested is the main factor, and neither skill nor the ability, to join hardmode challenges even being a casual gamer.

The old model locked out people who played casually. The current model locks out people who are not skilled from part of normal and heroic progression. I guess the op of this thread belongs to the second faction. He wants to participate in high end content as like in tbc, where there only was one difficulty.

If we return to the old model, the game will suffer. At a large scale. We already get development to that direction, as like the more linear progression in mop, where you need to farm lfr as a newcomer to be able to get into actual raid content for weeks. The devs already are actively listening to the "accomplishment"-crowd, which infact based their main arguments on envy about everyone being able to accomplish ingame goals.

I even see small changes like removing automatic flight path exploration as some kind of trend the devs are taking, which will lead to exactly this. At the end, we will have time dependend progression being stronger than ever before, because a lot of players give the devs a card blanche to change back to a more time sink'ish model as like in classic or bc. At the end we will have conveniences removed, and not improved (see the very funny flying mount removal discussion), just using the card blanche of the nostalgists to turn back to more time invested progression and gameplay.

Probably we will see that way coming back, as blizzard seems very limited at design and programming resources currently. And thats exactly the advantage about time sinks for the devs: They dont need to add any additional content to let you play longer. Just make everything much more time consuming, as like the progression path in mop compared to cataclysm. While cataclysm surely was too fast, mop probably is too slow again.

I dont know how the upcoming expansions will be done, but as more feedback the devs get to turn back to the old times, as more i am scared they are actually going to do that.
Edited by Nessaya on 18/03/2013 18:01 GMT
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90 Draenei Mage
20540
Heroic modes is just lazy development. Re-using same bosses, same instances etc and just make them harder. Heroic raids aren't new content, and tbh who would wanna do the same content, the same bosses etc on 3 different lv of challange? If that's not a lazy way to re-use content, then I don't know what is.

Its not a re-using.
Devs can throw out easy and normal modes and leave only heroic modes. Also - only challenge modes fo 5-ppl dungeons.
But in this case final bosses - only for 0,1% of playerbase.
Those difficulty gradation - lfr/normal/heroic - exists for only one purpose - to allow most of playerbase see content and also give some challenge for hardcore players.

I can call it re-using if in 5.2 devs give us slightly redesigned and harder versions of 5.0 raids, but no - now in every tier we got three difficulties of every raid dungeon.
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