The item level squish? The content squish.

90 Pandaren Monk
0
For my post, I will refer to the post by Jito that had gotten me thinking: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6621752163 ~ "The great... level squish?"

Basically, what Jito is onto is pure golden. But I'd like to expand it.
I would like to see all end game content from every expansion to be fit to be end game content for the current expansion. Right now we have countless raids, dungeons, profession items, potions, gear, heck even quests and achievements that are just useless. Sure it's fun to have or do them, but that's about it.

Raid progression would still move with the expansion, with each expansion, each set of raids will be harder, but there would be so, so, SO much more choice in what to do.
With each expansion we will have more crafted gear to choose from.

Cons?

-How many freaking end game items would we have? Wouldn't it all be the same?
Well, I think with this, either chance on hit: items will make a new return, or stats will just scale up somewhat. As a level 60 player you can go from 60 strength + 70 stamina on plate, to 300 strength + 350 stamina on plate, depending on your tier progress.

-Wouldn't that cause huge unbalance in, let's say, pvp? Wouldn't gear become even more of a deciding factor than it already is?
There are many fixes to this, for example itemlevel brackets, or players would have equal gear (although that knocks the sense out of progression imo).

-Wouldn't new players get confused with how to begin or what to do?
Right now there is the Hero's Call Board to let new players know where to quest. I am confident that a similar system will help new players on their way.

-With so many items to craft, wouldn't players be confused as to what is best?
There will always be people who analyze every single item available thoroughly, and people will offer items that are the best. Guides will be made, but with this, you have more choice, like the current talent tree. I think it would be just as rewarding to play with the items you like most than what is best. There is more choice in items like the stealth potion, who still uses that anyway? Or Cat's Eye Elixir?

-What about Blizzard? A change like this requires a changing the entire game, which will cost a truckload of effort. People may not like the new changes and unsub, causing Blizz to lose millions of players. They would never do that.
Keep in mind, Blizzard has also completely revamped classic leveling content in Cataclysm. I think, if they have their mind set on something, they will do t. Ring of Peace is also the result of that, /lol.

That's all I can currently come up with. Thanks for reading if you did get this far. :P
Edited by Locomonkie on 15/03/2013 07:08 GMT
Reply Quote
54 Undead Mage
3360
15/03/2013 07:07Posted by Locomonkie
I would like to see all end game content from every expansion to be fit to be end game content for the current expansion. Right now we have countless raids, dungeons, profession items, potions, gear, heck even quests and achievements that are just useless. Sure it's fun to have or do them, but that's about it.


I agree with this. It's silly and downright wasteful to have 31 different raids available, but only have 4 of those be relevant for players of the current generation.

All though it would be prudent to insert a difficulty switch on said raids, so people can change them back to level 60 - 85, or you will have mutiny on your hands by the transmog squad who relies on low-level raid items for transmog pieces.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
0
15/03/2013 07:33Posted by Vegapunk
I would like to see all end game content from every expansion to be fit to be end game content for the current expansion. Right now we have countless raids, dungeons, profession items, potions, gear, heck even quests and achievements that are just useless. Sure it's fun to have or do them, but that's about it.


I agree with this. It's silly and downright wasteful to have 31 different raids available, but only have 4 of those be relevant for players of the current generation.

All though it would be prudent to insert a difficulty switch on said raids, so people can change them back to level 60 - 85, or you will have mutiny on your hands by the transmog squad who relies on low-level raid items for transmog pieces.


Well, in aggregation with Jito's post where levels will be squished back to 50 or 60 or something, so will all current content.
I guess the transmog squad will have to work for their gear then ;)
To be fair I'm also "part" of that transmog squad. I spend around 33% of my time looking for the perfect transmog.
I, personally, wouldn't mind having to organize a raid because I really want that item.
Reply Quote
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Shaman
10400
Great post, love the Q&A style of it, makes it a lot more understandable. Unfortunately I've not much to add, though I'm just here to say you have my support. Bring on the squish!

+1
Reply Quote
60 Human Warlock
8435
Still disagreeing for the same reason as before: it'll kill too many twink brackets
Reply Quote
29 Gnome Warlock
8505
15/03/2013 07:07Posted by Locomonkie
I would like to see all end game content from every expansion to be fit to be end game content for the current expansion. Right now we have countless raids, dungeons, profession items, potions, gear, heck even quests and achievements that are just useless. Sure it's fun to have or do them, but that's about it.


You are seeing this squarely from an End of Game-perspective, with the End of Game part already getting most of the content updates precisely because it is the End of Game part of the game and hence inherently limited.

As e.g. Smedley has pointed out, there simply is a limit to the amount of dragons you can shove into people's faces, and mortaging/ruining even more of the pre-cap game* because of trying to fix an inherently unfixable situation is something wise Devs would be dead-set against, as you're only driving off people that like the distinctive part of MMORPG's and players in an End of Game situation will always be done soon rather than later eventually.

You want to play existing content again, go Lock your XP. You don't have to level all your characters to Level Cap, and if you don't want to end up in an inherently limited pool of content and rut, you shouldn't do it.

Resources would be better spent on bringing back the option to do Quests at more interesting Character Levels by dropping the minimum level you can pick them up, as outlined in

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3161446346

(recent skinny version at http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6893570053 )

the more because that is a very easy way to explode the number of levelling choices.

*talking of which, how did removing Wintergrasp from Battlechesters and others actually pan out? Any massive Wintergrasps at 90?
Edited by Anvarra on 15/03/2013 09:03 GMT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Priest
12505
Whilst I absolutely see the attraction for some of the content you mention to be updated for current/max content, I have to agree with Anvarra - this game is already driven towards endgame content as it is, many people like to experience lower level stuff at their appropriate levels, there are entire guilds set up for twinking to experience this content at the "correct" level. If something like this was implemented, it would destroy that in one sweep.

Plus, I doubt very much that transmoggers would fancy having to put together a whole raid simply to get a particular mog item :P
Reply Quote
2 Gnome Mage
0
Raid progression would still move with the expansion, with each expansion, each set of raids will be harder, but there would be so, so, SO much more choice in what to do.
With each expansion we will have more crafted gear to choose from.

Except it would be horribly boring.

Image a new raid came out and all old raids would be scaled up accordinngly. Then you HAVE TO run ALL raids in the first week wenn normal mode is available to max out gear and start progressing on HC in the new raid.

You don't really think, that guild would want to progress in each old raid each tier? No, they would be horribly bored just to have to progress through molten core for the 10th time just to get item X there, because it is the BiS item for class Y, and then progress again through sunwell to get item Z for class A and so on... and you would never be "done" with progressing before the next tier comes out. You would probably only ever finsih 4 or 5 raids and never all of them, or only do the first few bosses in each. It would simply not work.

People are already complaining that 16 bosses in three raids were TOO MUCh at the start of MoP, and back in cataclysm they also complained that three raids were too much. And you want to add even more raids?

i mean i get that there should be some raid diversity at the and game. But the 5.0 raids are still relevant for most people, they can still progress there and get gear, and with toT we now have 12 (13) new bosses, which is a good size for a raid.

i mean i really support the original level squish idea. i think 30 or 40 levels are enough for wow, but this idea is far from being practical, reasonable or fun.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Hunter
19290
i reckon jito has it right (maybe not that thread but i read somewhere her theory) that this is their secret plan for near the end of the expanions
Reply Quote
Community
Well first of all, let me just say this pre-emptively, we’re not planning to do something like this anytime soon, but there’s no reason why we can’t speculate and talk about potentially good ideas. You never know, some might strike a chord with the devs and suddenly something might get implemented.

So let’s think about this, in theory, this is obviously a cool idea, and it’s something that players occasionally talk about, especially old school players that miss the old content and wish that they could go back in time and enter those raids while still having the same feeling that an end-game environment provides.
Of course we could say that you can still do those raids and lock your characters’ xp if you want, but I admit that it definitely won’t be the same endgame experience now as it used to be back then.

The issue that I personally have with this idea is that having a lot of content from where to choose from may seem like something good and positive, but in my opinion there are few issues that are probably not that easy to deal with.

Limits
If you have 30+ raids from where to choose from, then you also need a system that limits the amount of raids you can do per week, else it will frustrate players, especially completionists, as players will feel that to maximize their characters potential, they will have to run most (if not all) of those raids every single week.

Tuning & Balance
Currently we have only a few raids available at level 90 and they’re already hard enough to tune perfectly, imagine doing this for every single raid in WoW, there’s no way that the quality of balance and tuning would be on par with what it is today.

Splitting the population
You know, when there’s too much choice it’s easy to split players into smaller groups, imagine how hard would it be for guilds to decide where to go to when every single player has its own personal favourite raid or raid where he needs a particular loot from.
Sometimes more is less; too much choice can actually lead to stress and anxiety.

Loot
Each raid has unique pieces of loot; this would make the life of a minmax hardcore kind of player very, very hard.
Imagine if you had to get a specific piece of loot from 16 different raids to minmax your character, how frustrating would that be, and how lucky would you need to be to get all those pieces? Even if your guild would always choose the raid following only your personal needs, you would still need to have an incredible amount of luck to get all those BIS items.

I’m sure there are many other issues, maybe you can find good counterarguments to them which I’ll be very curious to read, I believe that this is a really nice topic and that it has great potential. I too think that it’s a shame to be losing such incredibly good endgame raid experiences that were once the “crème de la crème” on previous expansions, this is especially important for new players that never even got to experience them even once.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
13760
I am definitely with Taepsilum on this one. I am fine with the way raids are now, as well as how stats increase with each patch. I actually really like it. Keep 'em coming!
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
11630
i've always said the way to approach old content, is to:

1. scale players down to appropriate level using the challenge mode tech. so for instance, for karazhan, scale a player down to level 70 and fit them with a preset T4 gearset. (doesn't necessarily have te be the tier 4 set for the class, as DK and monks wont have one. just gear relative to the instance)
2. make it drop only cosmetic rewards and gold. so replace all the boss gear drops, with model matching transmog pieces, bosses that dropped mounts should still be able to drop mounts. gold drops from bosses doubled. no valor or justice points.
3. queueable via LFR - to allow for differing raid sizes 10/25/40
4. scaled nerfability. will of the ancients type buff, starts at 0% (to encourage people to try it as originally intended), scalable via intereaction with an npc from 0% up to 30%, in 5% increments which affects mob health and damage output. this would allow organised groups to disable the buff and unorganised LFR groups to stomp through it with the 30% buff.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Shaman
8200
I think with the raids you could do two things.

The first would be to keep them at entry LFR level, so everything from Molten Core up through Dragon Soul would drop a maximum 476 and be of similar difficulty - as it's at the low end, tuning can be liberal and not a headache for devs, it won't matter if you can faceroll it. That way you never interfere with the new raiding tiers a la MSV 489 and onwards.

Second would be the basic incentives - Valor, Justice, blue loot bags, achievements, mounts & transmog gear. If the 476 is a problem, you could solve the whole issue by making them all like the Challenge Mode set - statless. That way you circumvent the gear balancing and the desire for new players to farm 30+ raids a week as soon as they can queue for LFR.

You could call the system Classic Looking For Raid CLFR, and have a small caveat that it isn't meant for gearing up.

The trick is to make it somewhat compelling without interfering with the expansions own raid tiers.

As for the game world, every single zone could be phased to maximum level once the player reaches said level. So you could go back to Loch Modan at 90 and do those ogre quests and get your 19g reward and enjoy working on the achievements.
Edited by Belwarin on 15/03/2013 12:01 GMT
Reply Quote
1 Orc Hunter
0
IMO an infernal machine would be better to implement instead of complete scaling of old content.

Have a ToC style instance with doors that open and produce a random boss from WoW history. If not ToC a hall of Memory a raid instance that has Titan machines that pull a random raid boss into the room from history and you have to take that boss on to progress through.

Hard mode would be a few extra ability's and not knowing which boss is coming until you engage the machine.

Normal mode you can see the boss but it is scaled up to current lvl

LFR You can see the boss and the machine has stripped away some of his ability's (where applicable)

Trash leading up to the bosses could be similar models to the lead up trash to that boss possibly, Gives you an idea of what is coming.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Shaman
8200
IMO an infernal machine would be better to implement instead of complete scaling of old content.

Have a ToC style instance with doors that open and produce a random boss from WoW history. If not ToC a hall of Memory a raid instance that has Titan machines that pull a random raid boss into the room from history and you have to take that boss on to progress through.

Hard mode would be a few extra ability's and not knowing which boss is coming until you engage the machine.

Normal mode you can see the boss but it is scaled up to current lvl

LFR You can see the boss and the machine has stripped away some of his ability's (where applicable)

Trash leading up to the bosses could be similar models to the lead up trash to that boss possibly, Gives you an idea of what is coming.


Cool idea. Imagine a six or however many boss raid, in which each is a random boss from classic raids. How many possible combinations is that? @100 raid bosses in a 6 boss format, that's over 8 trillion combinations.
Edited by Belwarin on 15/03/2013 12:51 GMT
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
8910
Taepsilum, if you take a look at Jito's post which the OP is referring to, you can see that the old endgame, lets take vanilla, will be at around level 30. Therefore raid instances like Molten Core should be tuned to that level, and not endgame. This way you still have a few relevant raids to do for proper gear.

However i agree that the tuning and balancing would be a great deal of work. I do think it is worth for the dev's to consider though. In my personal opinion it is a very attractive idea, and if i have to sacrifice some content in a patch to make room for this, i would definately do it.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Warrior
nam
9725
Limits
If you have 30+ raids from where to choose from, then you also need a system that limits the amount of raids you can do per week, else it will frustrate players, especially completionists, as players will feel that to maximize their characters potential, they will have to run most (if not all) of those raids every single week.


Besides tuning and number of items available, this is probably one of the biggest arguments for the idea to not happen - However, here's a brand new idea on how to make them viable but not "forced":

Make the old raids "catch-up" raids! When a new expansion is released(like MoP) you have the raids similar to what we had in patch 5.0. Then when 5.2 hits, the old school raids are rolled out scaled to require gear equal to entering 5.0 - and dropping loot equal to 5.0-raids. You should probably not do lfr/normal/hc, but maybe just one(normal) or two(normal+lfr). That way you would never feel forced to do them for optimal loot since you would go 5.2-raids if min-maxing.
That way you could also re-introduce stuff like "Herald of the Titans", with a relevant ilvl instead of "forcing" people to reroll alts in order to achieve stuff like this.
Edited by Hvid on 15/03/2013 13:17 GMT
Reply Quote
My goodness, I find myself vehemently disliking this idea. What is with the recent fetish of people to want to make older content relevant again? I keenly remember when old content was updated with WotLK - people were spitting vitriol about Naxxramas coming back.

How times seem to have changed.

The case with re-releasing Naxxramas could certainly be made - incredibly few people ever saw the content and it was difficult to gain access to the instance even during TBC. To reintroduce Karazhan as current content though?

No thank you. I'm rather certain that people who raided this when it was relevant would agree with such a sentiment of distaste. We have been there, done that and obtained the proverbial purple T-shirt (or hat, or sword, or leggings). I would much rather see development effort being put towards new raid instances that progress the story rather than a system which squishes us to a, for example, SSC standard of gear and tells us to go and have fun with something a considerable amount of the playerbase has done before.

So there is the boredom aspect. There is also the fact that there is already so incredibly much to do in this new expansion that it is actually somewhat daunting! A daily heroic, scenario, daily quests, farming and trying to complete LFR are all relatively high on my agenda for priorities. Given the sheer amount of stuff to do I haven't been able to sink my teeth into pet battles, pvping with this new character, filling up old reputations or roleplaying. I fear that making old raid content mandatory would only compound this issue of there simply feeling like there is too much to do.

Jito has a decent proposition in dealing with level and stat inflation - if you consider that to a problem. Personally, I don't. However, they don't seem to posit a method to make all this old content actually useful aside from looking for transmogrification items and players likely don't need more content to do at 90 (at least not to the degree of "Raid ALL the instances!").

What is probably a better solution is to introduce LFR versions of the older instances which can be run as players reach that level. As in, you hit 60 and can queue for MC (independent of BG and dungeon queues to ensure high participation). You are then ported into a version of MC which is applicable for levels 60 to 65 or so (the original version would still exist) and bosses drop items which are of the same cosmetics as previous items but have had their stats retuned to be appropriate for levelling. Experience gain would be tuned to be approximately equivalent to dungeons.

  • This prevents content inflation at end game and moves some of the focus to the levelling experience.
  • It allows lower level players an early taste of some endgame playstyles.
  • It provides a purpose for the assets of older dungeons aside from being used as glorified solo instances for pet capture and gear acquisition.
  • The LFR versions of older raids would lift some of the monotony associated with raiding.
  • Level appropriate LFR raids would also allow new players to experience some of the wonderful storytelling that has applied exclusively to raids and could allow for a greater attachment to character progression.
  • Reply Quote
    24 Dwarf Hunter
    3080
    Well first of all, let me just say this pre-emptively, we’re not planning to do something like this anytime soon, but there’s no reason why we can’t speculate and talk about potentially good ideas. You never know, some might strike a chord with the devs and suddenly something might get implemented.

    So let’s think about this, in theory, this is obviously a cool idea, and it’s something that players occasionally talk about, especially old school players that miss the old content and wish that they could go back in time and enter those raids while still having the same feeling that an end-game environment provides.
    Of course we could say that you can still do those raids and lock your characters’ xp if you want, but I admit that it definitely won’t be the same endgame experience now as it used to be back then.

    The issue that I personally have with this idea is that having a lot of content from where to choose from may seem like something good and positive, but in my opinion there are few issues that are probably not that easy to deal with.

    Limits
    If you have 30+ raids from where to choose from, then you also need a system that limits the amount of raids you can do per week, else it will frustrate players, especially completionists, as players will feel that to maximize their characters potential, they will have to run most (if not all) of those raids every single week.

    Tuning & Balance
    Currently we have only a few raids available at level 90 and they’re already hard enough to tune perfectly, imagine doing this for every single raid in WoW, there’s no way that the quality of balance and tuning would be on par with what it is today.

    Splitting the population
    You know, when there’s too much choice it’s easy to split players into smaller groups, imagine how hard would it be for guilds to decide where to go to when every single player has its own personal favourite raid or raid where he needs a particular loot from.
    Sometimes more is less; too much choice can actually lead to stress and anxiety.

    Loot
    Each raid has unique pieces of loot; this would make the life of a minmax hardcore kind of player very, very hard.
    Imagine if you had to get a specific piece of loot from 16 different raids to minmax your character, how frustrating would that be, and how lucky would you need to be to get all those pieces? Even if your guild would always choose the raid following only your personal needs, you would still need to have an incredible amount of luck to get all those BIS items.

    I’m sure there are many other issues, maybe you can find good counterarguments to them which I’ll be very curious to read, I believe that this is a really nice topic and that it has great potential. I too think that it’s a shame to be losing such incredibly good endgame raid experiences that were once the “crème de la crème” on previous expansions, this is especially important for new players that never even got to experience them even once.

    I've spoken openly before that I liked WoW in it's Vanilla and TBC versions more than the currents one. However I have to agree that scaling Raids might turn out to be tricky... I'm not really favouring this idea. But how about implementing this to OLD DUNGEONS? We could have all the Vanilla/TBC/WOTLK/Cata dungeons scale to heroic level and drop the same Loot as current MOP dungeons. This way people won't get bored by doing heroics as there would be plethora of options. Dungeons are not high end content as raids are thus won't unbalance the game.

    I've created a thread few days ago suggesting this however sadly not many replies in there but you can check it out!

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6877337924
    Reply Quote
    90 Worgen Druid
    8885
    I agree with Taepsilum. We don't need to have virtually 12 end-game tiers running at the same time. It would be extremely overwhelming for both developers and players.

    However, like I wrote in the thread you linked in your OP, I think the game could benefit immensely from a level squish of some description. Generally I find that new players are going through too much content, and so to balance it out Blizzard makes them go through this content extremely quickly.

    This generally means you don't get to finish the stories the game has to tell, and so you run through the world and nothing cool ever really happens, and that kindda sucks.

    Just to put the problem into perspective: I tried levelling without Heirlooms, but I did join one of those spammety-spam guilds in order to simulate what being a new player feels like. I also did no dungeons and no BG's.

    I ended up being level 23 by the time I came out of Darkshore. At this point I couldn't go to STV - too early. So I'm forced to go to a 20-25 zone. I chose Ashenvale. By the time I came out of that, I was level 30.

    LEVEL 30. Not only was the experience of doing Ashenvale incredibly boring because it was so easy I could literally AFK the mobs to death towards the end, but I also skipped a zone I really liked - Northern Stranglethorn.

    World of Warcraft needs another levelling revamp. The quests themselves are fine, but the tuning is way off. They need to make it more dynamic so that I can easily choose which zone to go to at any given time. They need to lower the minimum level of all quests. Overpowered items is not an excuse given how much better blue items are and don't even get me started on the requires level 80 items from MoP.

    For a while I thought it was just me, but I have a few people who can testiny now. Saenna @ Frostmane is a completely new player for instance and he just can't be arsed logging into WoW because he needs to level through MoP, and he finds the levelling content so easy that he's about to die of boredom - and yet he simply cannot choose to move ahead to a harder zone to get more difficult content because the quests will not unlock.

    I think Blizzard is losing players to that. A lot of players potentially. I can't imagine Saenna and I are the only people who feel this way at all; pretty sure it's common.

    I think they need to squish levels in some way, or span content over a larger amount of levels. All the old zones go 10 levels again but are side-by-side, Northrend and Outland now have the same 20 levels they go through, but each of these 20 levels are a bit shorter, and so on. And if you also want to solve the problem of "too few rewards for each level" which we have at the moment, you need to cut the amount of levels in near half as well. I talk of it at length in the other thread.
    Edited by Ishaye on 15/03/2013 13:52 GMT
    Reply Quote

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)
    Submit Cancel

    Reported!

    [Close]