ToT is overtuned

8 Human Mage
0
Why is tier 14 heroic gear required for progressing in normal Throne of Thunder? Anything after Jin'Rokh is tuned for item lvl 500 or more. The highest you can get from normals is 496. Most heroic raiders had about 510 before the patch and some normal mode only raiders barely had 490. As a result the elitist crew facerolled it and said it was loleasy while the rest are struggling.

My main has 3 522 pieces, one 502, some upgraded 496s and I'm still way below 500. Why should I farm LFR for months until I'm ready for normal mode? That's how long it is going to take with the current drop rate. Most players in my guild are even less geared even though they have more normal mode kills. I guess I'm not doing ToT with them anytime soon.

Clearing Ulduar hard modes wasn't required for entering Trial of the Crusader or even ICC.
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90 Worgen Druid
8660
No your just bad
Edited by Zéphyrús on 23/03/2013 23:23 GMT
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90 Undead Mage
9135
Just because they're not a walk in the park like Dragon Soul doesn't mean it's overtuned.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
17605
Just because they're not a walk in the park like Dragon Soul doesn't mean it's overtuned.
I completely agree.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15755
We killed Horridon and the council with average ilevels below 500 in the raid.

Also, if you want more gear, tier 14 is still there. You can get 496's easily and 502-509 for the HC's.

With the amount of charms you can drop in a full clear now it's a week or 2 max to gear up.

I do agree the difficulty curve is retarded. Blizz needs to learn how to make a curve, not a cliff.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3505
Queston. If LFR offers you 502 gear, and you can patch up ilevels via rep gains, coins and things. Is the i500 too much afterall ? maybe your raid (and its skillcap) is 'undertuned' for the raid and not raid being overtuned ?
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
16100
You really don't need 500, especially not after the nerfs. Also, getting 500 is not that hard. I didn't have a single item from normal modes except the shoulders from Gara'jal (lol) and t14 gloves which I got from Sha. All my gear came through Valor pretty much, with the exception of the helm that I got last week from a coin roll and I'm nearly at 500 with a freaking blue weapon due to terrible luck on weapon drops.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
19615
you dont need t14 HC do to ToT normal if you got group of 10/25 people who know how to play and know what to do 490+ is enought to clean full ToT normal after Nerfs
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100 Human Mage
15295
I kind of agree with the original poster, but it's because if you do LFR, you see all the bosses there as soon as they are released. Sure, if you had heroic gear or a very good team (which probably meant you had heroic gear), you have cleared normal well before LFR is released for those bosses. For most raiding guilds though, the players see LFR first and probably much later see the same encounters on normal.

If LFR didn't exist, Blizzard would tune normal to be easier so that more people would see normals. This means the OK raid teams would pretty much steamroll through normals and then work on progression on heroics. Because LFR exists, Blizzard has decided that the less skilled teams don't need to get through normal modes, so normal is tuned so that the OK raids need to work and gear up for them. Reminds me of classic & TBC raids...

There's a lot of loot on Jin'rokh and Horridon. There are a lot of valor items. Even if you do just those bosses, you'll be pretty close to iLevel 522 in a month or two.

I was expecting normal to be tuned a bit easier in 5.2 than in 5.0. The first three bosses seem quite similar. If Horridon would have been a 5.0 boss, it might have had a tighter berserk timer. Even as it is now, we've hit the berserk a few times (but we have also killed it twice now with a raid that is and was mostly <500 iLevel).

We've been 3-healing council so far (we've only spent a few hours on it). The DPS requirement seems pretty high for 3 healer raid compositions, so it's possible it was designed for 2 healers. I think the classic 10 man raid has 3 healers, 2 tanks and 5 dps, but Blizzard may be trying to shift the default to 2 healers, 2 tanks (one with a good DPS offspec) and 6-7 DPS.

If normal difficulty should feel to a coordinated 10 man group about the same or slightly harder than LFR for a random jumble of a raid, then I think ToT is a bit harder than it should. If you are meant to progress through the normal mode raid over a period of a month or two, then it's probably correctly tuned (based on what I have seen so far).
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
11200
I find it funny how people say in one sentence - u dont need HC gear to progress ToT and in next one - dont worry so much cause u'll soon get 552 pieces (which are 20 itlv higher then MV HC gear) and 502 lfr pieces (which are exackly MV Hc gear itlv) - so in the end u need it -_- ofc there are some people who probably could clear it with 496 itlv but pls rememebr that general itlv of player who finished 16/16 N isnt exakly 496 only more like <490 and also genral skill lv of average raider isnt exackly on Hc raiding guilds lv -_-
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100 Orc Hunter
18210
Blizzard wants you to progress through normal modes, the same way most heroic guilds progress through heroics.
Say that the first wing (Jin, Horri, Council) is tuned for 500 Ilvl.
Second (Tortos, Mag, Ji Kun) is tuned for 505.
Third (Durumu, Primordius, Animus) is tuned for 510.
And fourth (Qon, Twins, Lei Shen) is tuned for 515.

If you'd care to study the loot tables, you would see that almost every item has atleast one alternative from another boss. This is more than we've ever seen before, really, and the intention is clear -
You farm the first 3 untill you get gear to progress the next 3. When you hit a wall, you farm the X amount of bosses up to that boss untill you have gear to succeed - rinse and repeat till everything has been beaten. Just like heroic modes.

Which I, personally, think is great. Normals are the hardest I've ever seen since I started playing (TOTC), which is kind of awesome.
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90 Orc Hunter
17155
Even having trash this actually difficult / fun is a great addition. Rather than the usual 'pick up all mobs and spam AoE,' you have to think before pulling everything. E.g. The spirits on the way to Council.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
16100
I find it funny how people say in one sentence - u dont need HC gear to progress ToT and in next one - dont worry so much cause u'll soon get 552 pieces (which are 20 itlv higher then MV HC gear) and 502 lfr pieces (which are exackly MV Hc gear itlv) - so in the end u need it -_- ofc there are some people who probably could clear it with 496 itlv but pls rememebr that general itlv of player who finished 16/16 N isnt exakly 496 only more like <490 and also genral skill lv of average raider isnt exackly on Hc raiding guilds lv -_-


There are "undergeared" guilds clearing the entire HC mode right now. It is definitely possible to do ToT without ilvl 500, but what we are saying is that 500 is really easy to get now, especially if you already cleared 16/16 normal and had the gear that came from that. I never got past Blade Lord, and even my ilvl was around 490 so saying that 16/16 normal cleared people are below 490 doesn't make sense. If you capped valor like you should have pre-patch, then you should have 3-4 522 pieces from valor alone by now.
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90 Worgen Warrior
14720
Perhaps some bosses were slightly overtuned the first week, but I don't see any reason why a complete raid in 496 itemlevel shouldn't be able to clear normal mode TOT.
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100 Human Mage
15295
Better teams manage with less gear. What I meant with the accessible 522 gear is that it will effectively nerf the content over time. Also, the classic model of WoW raiding was that you geared up using a certain set of bosses until you were ready to hit the next harder bosses etc. I think we are seeing this again in normal modes. It may be entirely intentional that a normal mode geared guild will need more than a month or two to clear normal ToT.

I don't have a single heroic 5.0 item. I now have a few 522 items (2 from valor, 3 from boss drops). We have only killed the first two bosses and we are making good progress on the third. Even though we only killed two bosses last night, the 10 man group got 11 item upgrades from those two bosses (very lucky with bonus rolls, including one thunderforged item again).

When we started ToT, I had 491 PvP gloves, three 483 tier items and a 491 upgraded LFR weapon. I still have two 483 tier items, but otherwise it's all 496 or higher now.

The loot table on Jin'rokh seems particularly large and will offer raids upgrades for quite a while.
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ToT Is a good start for 490 + raiders its shows if you have good or poor communication in guild... We found that out the hard way. But it helped us communicate more even if we failed to much. xD
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90 Undead Warlock
17240
Perhaps some bosses were slightly overtuned the first week, but I don't see any reason why a complete raid in 496 itemlevel shouldn't be able to clear normal mode TOT.


having a mouth full of skill might be impressive on these forums but later on you won't be able to beat the enrage timers, even people with hc gear come close on some bosses, like twins for example
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100 Human Mage
15295
Given the interviews before 5.2 was released, I'm really surprised (and saddened) if the encounter designers haven't gotten the enrages right this time.
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8 Human Mage
0
Queston. If LFR offers you 502 gear, and you can patch up ilevels via rep gains, coins and things. Is the i500 too much afterall ? maybe your raid (and its skillcap) is 'undertuned' for the raid and not raid being overtuned ?

All LFR has offered me is gold bags that don't even cover my repair bill.
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90 Human Priest
14395
I personally don't see the need to clear out the entire raid so quickly. Imo ToT is perfectly tuned so far up to Megaera, withouth the recent nerf, and I can't wait to see the other bosses. But I have no need to see them right away... I can settle with farming a few of the easier bosses if I can't down it with my current ilvl.

Most of these issues have turned out to be player issues rather than gear/overtuning.
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